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Need assistance on fresh water system(s)

therapidone

Member III
While messing w/ some stuff on Spirit, I inadvertently knocked the switch on the electrical panel for the pressurized water to the "on" position yesterday. To my surprise, the pump fired up--that sound is unmistakable! When we launched Spirit this season, it didn't work & no amount of turning the switch on and off would make it work. Since we haven't been spending any multiple-day trips aboard, I figured it was something I would look into when the season is over...our boat is 50 miles from where we live, traffic in the DC area is terrible, and I'd rather be sailing than fixing something I don't absolutely need when the weather is good.

After verifying water would flow from the hot & cold faucets at the galley sink & in the head, I went back to the electrical panel & turned off the switch since this was not something that I had intended to attend to & time was slipping by. Then I figured, "what the heck?"...I'll drain the "winterized" water, fill up the tank & some bleach while it's filling up, drain it again, and just some water to drain, and finally, fill it up. Flipped the switch & nothing...other than the little led light on the electrical panel advising me that the switch was in the "on" position.

So, I have 3 questions:
#1. Anybody have any ideas as to what might be wrong w/ the pressurized water pump? At launch time in the spring, my first thought was the pump had given up the ghost...now I'm not so sure.

#2. Any tests that I can make to isolate the problem?

#3. Once the water is completely drained from both the hot water tank & the fresh/cold water tank, how does water get into the hot water tank? Does simply filling up the fresh/cold water tank cause water to eventually find its way into the hot water tank or is there some action that I need to take to force it into the hot water tank?

Regards,

Ed:egrin:
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
This sounds sorta-kinda do-able... of course I am a loooong ways away from you and can say that! :)
1) you know the breaker/switch works, and
2) you know that the pump is capable of working when energized.

Easy tests first -- clean and re-insert connections for all the wiring, and then search for any splices that could be giving you an "intermitant open"....
The pump will likely have two pig tails with a taped up crimp fitting for each wire of the pair that goes to the panel. Un-tape and check for integrity.
Plan B trouble shooting: maybe it IS the pump switch... Maybe a traditional thump on the pump housing while the switch is "on" might bring it to life again. If so you know you need to repair or more likely replace it.

Beyond that, I donno.

Good luck,
Loren in PDX
 
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Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
All of what Loren says is good. I would add that it is likely a marginal switch contact which might have been cured with the bump to the breaker or warmer temperatures. I might give a cursory look for a loose wire connection, but would not invest much effort into looking for a problem that does not now exist.

Remember what someone once said: "I'd rather be sailing than fixing something I don't absolutely need when the weather is good." If it ain't broke...

good luck.
 

CaptnNero

Accelerant
details, details

His latest report was that it currently is not working, hence the request for debugging assistance.

Tom Metzger said:
All of what Loren says is good. I would add that it is likely a marginal switch contact which might have been cured with the bump to the breaker or warmer temperatures. I might give a cursory look for a loose wire connection, but would not invest much effort into looking for a problem that does not now exist.

Remember what someone once said: "I'd rather be sailing than fixing something I don't absolutely need when the weather is good." If it ain't broke...

good luck.
 

Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
Hey Neal - Thanx a lot for pointing this out. It adds a lot to the thread. ::rolleyes:

I still recommend sailing while the weather is good. Remember what Ed said: "I'd rather be sailing than fixing something I don't absolutely need when the weather is good."

Then, I would do what Loren suggests.
 

CaptnNero

Accelerant
???

Dear Tom,

I truly am sorry that I have offended you at all and especially to the point that you would be sarcastic with your emoticon emphasis.

I pointed out the true situation in case someone saw your post and thought there was currently nothing wrong with Therapidone as your post suggested and then withheld some useful debugging advice or experience beyond what was already offered.

I do hope that the remarks that you made towards me in your last post were actually as well intentioned as mine were in the previous post.

Tom Metzger said:
Hey Neal - Thanx a lot for pointing this out. It adds a lot to the thread. ::rolleyes:

I still recommend sailing while the weather is good. Remember what Ed said: "I'd rather be sailing than fixing something I don't absolutely need when the weather is good."

Then, I would do what Loren suggests.
 

Guy Stevens

Moderator
Moderator
Sounds like the pressure switch

This sounds a lot like a faulty pressure switch, find the pump, and see if you can jumper the pressure switch, located on the end of the pump, see if it comes on. If it does then the issue is the pressure switch, which generally with the newer pumps means that you have to get a new pump :-(

Some of the pump manufactures have a replacement switch, but this generally does not go so well as a replacement. Of course, you could just jumper the factory pressure switch on the pump and install your own pressure switch in the plumbing, these generally last a lot longer.

Guy
:)
 

therapidone

Member III
thanks & do we need a referee?

Thank you for the suggestions including the info about the pressure switch, something about which I knew absolutely nothing prior to my posting the question.:redface:

Tom and Cap'n Nero, I would hate for my ignorance about such issues to be the cause of any hard feelings between any members of this site, can't we all just get along? :Kissy: ...Cap'n Nero was right about the darn thing not working again & Tom was correct in pointing out that if I'm not all that concerned about using the pressurized water (regardless of how Admiral Cathy:wife: feels about it), I should follow my own advice & just go sailing.:egrin:

Now, can anyone address the question that I posed about whether I have to take any action, once the hot water tank and the fresh/cold water tank are empty, to get water into the hot water tank? Will it just fill up the tank as I fill the fresh/cold water tank? If not, what do I have to do to get it into the hot water tank?:confused:

Regards,

Ed:egrin:
 

Shadowfax

Member III
Now, can anyone address the question that I posed about whether I have to take any action, once the hot water tank and the fresh/cold water tank are empty, to get water into the hot water tank? Will it just fill up the tank as I fill the fresh/cold water tank? If not, what do I have to do to get it into the hot water tank?:confused:

The water pump will pump water into the hot water tank. It will not gravity feed from the water tanks.

NEVER turn on the electric to the hot water heater until you are sure you have water in it or you will burn out the element. There is also a heat exchanger in the hot water heater that heats the water from the heat of the engine. I don't know what effect that will have on an empty hot water heater. I'd either find out if you have an electrical problem or buy a new pump. They are about $150.00 and take about an hour to install, much easier then installing a new hot water heater
 
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Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
The reason people avoid #3 is that it the hot water tank or may not fill from the ship's water tank. Lots of us put a bypass around the hw tank in the winter so we don't have to put 6 (?) gallons of antifreeze into it to winterize the hw lines.

Paul was correct if there is no bypass, but if there is a bypass it must be removed or valved off depending on the system. An inspection of the hw tank should tell you if one is present.
 

therapidone

Member III
Thanks, Paul

Ok, now I know how the water will get into the hot water tank...I'm guessing from what you tell me that when I put the pressurized water pump on (and it works:D ) and all faucets are closed, the water will be pumped first into the hot water tank. Now, assuming that both tanks are full & I open both the hot and cold water faucets at the galley sink, the pump will now force water in 2 directions at once?:confused: ...to the cold water faucet at the galley AND to replace the water that is leaving the hot water tank? Is this correct?

In an attempt to salvage some modicum of respect, despite my ignorance about the fresh water pump & filling the hot water heater, I was aware of the 2 ways in which the water in the hot water tank can be heated...I was also aware that the hot water tank switch should never be thrown when there is no water in the tank...but, given my obvious level of ignorance on such issues, I much prefer folks pointing things out that I might not know rather than not mentioning anything & I end up w/ more problems on my hands than when I started this thread! So, I appreciate your concern in pointing out the potential problem in turning on the hot water tank switch & the spirit with which the cautionary statement was made.

I'm pretty certain that no damage is done via the heat exchanger when the hot water tank is empty...it's just a matter of transferring the heat & doesn't involve the heating element in any way.

Regards,

Ed:egrin:
 

CaptnNero

Accelerant
you asked for it

Ed, I wasn't going to worry about the hot water tank filling part until you got the pump working ;)

Ok, so the deal is that the fresh water pressure supply splits on the downstream side of the pump into a cold and hot branch. The cold goes directly to the faucets and the hot feeds the hot water tank which then feeds the faucets. First shut off every faucet tight. Next run the closest cold faucet in the pump plumbing until you get a steady stream of water. Do that progressively for all of the cold faucets. Then do the same progressive procedure for the hot side. The hot water tank will automatically fill but it will take a while if it was truly empty. Expect a lot of bursts of air for a while but eventually it will run steady.

Another thing to check when pressurizing is that the hot water tank is plumbed in and has all of it's orifices shut. Some people use a bypass kit to winterize the hot water tank and just drain it.

When all of the air is bled out shut off the faucets and the pump should shut itself off. Now since your system has been out of service you might as well check for leaks. A sure sign of a leak (or a faucet not all the way off) is a pump which cycles on and off when you're not running the water. If you don't get all of the air out that can cause mystery cycles too.

Beyond bleeding the air out of the system, you may discover that there is some discoloration from potable anitfreeze and/or flavors and odors, so then you need to flush cold and hot lines until that improves as well as can be.

At this point you should have a functioning system. If you still have odor or flavor issues you might want to look up a recent post by Guy Stevens on flushing the system with vinegar and then baking soda.

As for Tom M. and I, I tend to do posts lately that make him do posts lately that include the :rolleyes: thing. When that happens I go read some more of his excellent boat electrical posts and then I feel better again. At least we have the same model Ericson in common. ;) That's a start isn't it ?

I would write more but this post is detracting from my sailing time and you and Tom sure know how that is.

ps- before bleeding the long dormant water system, make sure that bilge pump is working ;)

therapidone said:
...Now, can anyone address the question that I posed about whether I have to take any action, once the hot water tank and the fresh/cold water tank are empty, to get water into the hot water tank? Will it just fill up the tank as I fill the fresh/cold water tank? If not, what do I have to do to get it into the hot water tank?:confused:

Regards,

Ed:egrin:
 
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therapidone

Member III
Thanks, Tom

Ok, I'll be sure to check to see whether there is a by-pass for the hot water heater water supply. In fact, I'll try to follow this plumbing system the best that I can...at least from the fresh water tank to the hot water heater & also see where the pump comes into play as well as the supply lines to the galley sink (I'd like to follow the supply lines to the head, but finding anything on this boat is a real pita**)...if I'm not mistaken, the pump is mounted in the battery well under the nav berth/seat at the nav desk so access to the pump is pretty easy...

**It's the rest of the plumbing system that is darned difficult to track as there is precious little room to eyeball anything that isn't in plain view on the E/30+ models...or at least that's been my experience when trying just to follow wiring to a non-working speaker mounted on the bulkhead by the previous owner. I was thinking of replacing both speakers & I can trace the wiring to the one on the starboard side w/ relative ease...the port side is another matter altogether.

Regards,

Ed:egrin:
 

therapidone

Member III
and thank you, Cap'n Nero

I guess I should just wait a few minutes before answering some of these as by the time I pose another question & submit it, someone has already answered it!:)

This site is wonderful for providing such advice & in addition to thanking each of you that contributed some information to assist me in this matter, I'd like to thank SSE for his tireless efforts in keeping this place running...plus, the little extra features that this site has from an IT standpoint are to be appreciated and are really icinig on the cake...I wonder whether there are many, indeed, any commercial sites that have all the bells and whistles that can be found on this site? A big attaboy to Sean:hail: :clap:

Thanks to all...when I get around to solving the problem, I'll be sure to post an update.

Regards,

Ed:egrin:
 

Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
A hot water faucet has to be open for the pump to fill the tank. See the attached sketch for what the systen looks like. The bypass and valves around the hot water tank may not exist.
 

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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Tom, on my current OS Mac your ( .doc ) attachments open with your text but no pictures. Can you attach them as PDF's or JPG's?

Thanks,
Loren
 

Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
Having received complaints that the diagram was not viewable in some operating systems I replaced it in the orginal post and added color to show where the hot water exists. I hope this helps.
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
One of the posts above mentioned that if the pump comes on periodically without water use, there is a leak. But that may not be so, and we may be sending some of us on a wild goose chase. :(

My pump cycles on briefly about every 10 minutes and my boat maintenance handyperson said this was normal because the seals on the pump eventually weaken a bit and lose pressure, which is restored by the pump coming on briefly. I have seen no sign of a leak in the water system, so I think what he is saying may be correct. Any comments or similar experience?

Frank.
 

Shadowfax

Member III
Of Water Pumps

Ed,

Lots of good advice here. The bypass system that Tom refers to on the hot water heater is something you want to install if you find you don't have one. They are about $30 and worth every penny. I put one on my boat about 5 years ago and bless the day, come fall, when putting the boat away.

Tom is correct in that the tap on the hot water side of the system must be open to allow water into the hot water tank, if not the tank becomes air bound. When you fill the tanks and turn on the pressure switch, the system will try to fill all of the system, hot and cold at once, so I'd open both taps. Neal is correct; expect a lot of air sputtering especially on the hot water side as that tank fills.


Frank,
I am some what manic when it comes to cycling water pumps that cycle every 10 to 20 minutes through the night. I believe that if you have ANY cycling it has to be eliminated, and have found that going over EVERY fitting in the system finds a surprising number of fittings that can be tightened. The leak can be virtually invisible that cycles the pump and as it drains into the bilge you probably will never notice it, as it is so small an amount of water. If after all the fittings have been addressed and you find the system still cycles, then I'd replace the pump, I value my sleep that much, but I’ve never seen the pump to be the problem and if it is it needs to be replaced because it is dying, then replace it
 
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CaptnNero

Accelerant
diaphram

Shadowfax said:
...If after all the fittings have been addressed and you find the system still cycles, then I'd replace the pump, I value my sleep that much, but I’ve never seen the pump to be the problem and if it is it needs to be replaced because it is dying

I had a pump which couldn't develop enough pressure to trigger the cutoff switch. In that case the rubber diaphram was failing.
 
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