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Small jib for heavy wind?

wurzner

Member III
On my 32-2 that I just sold, I would sail with just a headsail regularly for a few reasons. For one it is a lot easier to put the boat away. also, when I was out by myself, it was a lot easier to drop the sail and take care of it on once back in the slip. The boat always sailed nice even in winds upwards of 20. the only thing I noticed was I lost a lot in pointing abilitities. Typically, I was out to feel the wind on my face so that didn't matter. Going down wind it sailed really nice.

shaun
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Was out in some breeze last wednesday and observed the following on my 38. AWS going upwind at 6-6.5 kts.BSP 18-22kts. First reef in the main and my 145% rolled up to about 120%. Still significantly overpowered. Rail underwater and too much weather helm. The genoa is pretty hard to get flat as it is a bit old and when reefed to that point really starts to look like crap, even keeping the lead back to try and make the sail flatter. One issue I think I have is that my forestay is too long and I have too much rake which is giving me the excess weather helm. The other issue clearly is the size and shape of that jib. I am hoping to replace it this year with a laminate version and am thinking of going down to a 135% so I could hopefully reef it to 110%. The 135% though could be a bit on the small side for most of summer. I have a 100% jib but getting the 145% off the furler and folded is a PITA. I was thinking of using the 100% in the spring and fall when we typically have breeze but may that thing sucks when its light out. Overall I think most of my heavy air performance issues will be resolved when I finish my rigid vang (18:1 purchase) and get the hydraulic Back stay adjuster in. Im going to shorten the forestay to get the rake better too. The numbers you guys were speaking of carrying full main and 100% jib upwind to still seem high to me. Are your rails buried and how many degrees of helm do you have on? For instance if on strbd tack where is the centerline mark on your wheel? 10:00? 9:00? 8:00?
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Jib alone works for me so far

I sail sometimes with my jib only, when the wind is up and we're feeling lazy (or it's raining hard). The boat still points well, and above 16 knots true wind speed the boat goes great without much weather helm until about 22 knots.

A skipper/sailing instructor/salt I know, who owned his E38 for a dozen years and used it for skippered charters out of southeast Alaska, gave me some advice about this subject.

With the working jib (~90%, high clew), he advised leaving the jib alone and reefing the mainsail as necessary (15-18 1st reef, 22-25 2nd reef). He figured by the time the true wind reached 30 knots the main should be stowed and he'd sail on the jib alone until ... reaching shelter or resorting to the iron genny.

As long as the top of the mast isn't pumping forward that much, it seems like jib only would be acceptable.

What would we do on our cruising boats if the top of the mast is bending forward in strong gusty winds? Is this a major issue? If we had an adjustable backstay, we would have flattened the main before reefing and would probably leave in the backstay pressure even after the main was all the way down, right? Most of us probably don't have running backstays to worry about, but that is another item that can be too loose/tight also. Just wondering.

PS - We have the deep draft fin (6' 6") encapsulated in a few coats of epoxy
 
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Seth

Sustaining Partner
Fwd mast bend

This should never happen-no matter what sail combo you have up. Also, sailing with just a headsail should not cause this to happen by itself-the only way that could happen is if the rig is set up terribly wrong.

Whether or not you carry an adjustable backstay, you should never be out in rough conditions with a rig so poorly tuned. The mast should be set up with either zero aft rake (in some extreme cases a small amout of forward rake is acceptable-but not fwd bend) or some small degree of aft rake(depending on the specific boat)-and the headstay and backstay must have sufficient tension to prevent the masthead from ever going forward of straight or bending forward-even though concievably it could be raked forward....

This has been about rake-if you really meant forward BEND, it is even worse in terms of the mast loads-they are not meant to take this. Make sure the forward lowers are tighter than the aft lowers, and the butt of the mast is in the right spot, and your backstay is tight enough again to prevent this.

That is all, That is all.:egrin:
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Craig the sail combination you mentioned sounds more like what my boat likes. 15-18 first reef and a 90-100%, 20-25 second reef and 90%, 25-30 no main and 100%., 30-35 90% jib. I was out last night and had a glorious sail in 5-8 kts of breeze. We were able to do 6+ uphill with the full main and 145%. I was seeing 10-12 apparent while going uphill with the rail maybe 6" from going in my helm was at about 2:00 on port tack. I will start another thread with some pics.
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
More on forward bending of the masthead

I edited my last post to add that I have the deep draft fin keel (6' 6").

I think the knowledge that forward bend/pumping at the masthead is a bad thing is important info for us less experienced owner-sailors. And if I hadn't spent a few years at the mast, or as bowman on racing boats, I'd have never known that forward pumping at the masthead is in any way undesirable. I would never have thought to go to my mast in heavy conditions and sight upwards to see what the masthead was doing. I had my rig inspected and tuned last spring and I thought I had too much length on the backstay. So my mast is pretty much straight up now, and I can't take up any more on the backstay turnbuckle. Further reading shows that I have a tuning issue, according to the E38 tuning instructions in the Specs and Docs section of this website. My mast is centered in the coachroof hole. According to the tuning instructions the mast should be hard against the forward edge of the hole. So I have some work to do with the partners and then to re-adjust all the wires to see if I have to shorten the backstay or do something else.

Right now, I get a couple (3? 4?) inches of forward masthead bend due to pumping in chop in higher winds (above 15 knots). It's mostly the shock induced by the chop that causes the bend. I should probably get after the tuning ahead of some of the other projects, based on your response, Seth. I wasn't aware that the mast should not be subjected to that motion.

Ted - A great sailing evening. I'll look forward to your pictures. My 155% genoa is in the garage in a bag - it's pretty baggy anyway. This summer I'll have to get it out and try it in light winds. I usually see about the same amount of weather helm as you report, at the best trim I can get when going upwind. I need to experiment more with mainsheet and traveler to see the affect on the helm. My traveler really needs work. Been fantasizing some over the traveler improvement and replacement threads that have been posted over the winter.

Thanks Seth! Where is your loft in Chicago anyway? I grew up in the south surburbs and get back that way every few years.
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
38 tuning

Craig,

Wow, I had not seen that document (the tuning guide) in years-note the initials at the bottom (SM);) .

The good news is I can explain the "mast at the fwd end of the partners" thing:

This is not something a cruiser or even most racers need to worry too much about. It has to do with the J measurement as measured for determining the rating-NOT proper tuning. The cutouts may be just slightly too far aft in the deck, and to make sure your actual J (16.25) is correct, that was where the front of mast needed to be. The J is measured from the front of the mast to the intersection of the hull and deck at the bow (the stem).

Remember that genoa LP (155%, 125%, etc) is a funciton of J, as are the spinnaker girths (assuming your pole is no longer than the J). So, if your J is 16.25 feet, you maximum genoa (if your local PHRF allows 155%'s) would be 25.18 feet (1.55 X 16.25). For the kite, the max girth is 1.8 X J. Or, if your local PHRF assumes 153% instaed of 155%, then the biggest genny would be 1.53 X 16.25, or 24.86 feet. Remember the ratings are in part derived from the I,J, P and E. The larger these are, the bigger your sails would be (e.g. if your mast was back in the cutout and your J measured in at 16.75 feet, a 155% could have an LP of 25.96)-bigger. But, bigger rig dimensions= bigger sails and a faster (lower) phrf number. It would no longer be a "standard 38".

Since the 38's PHRF ratings are based on a J of 16.25 you want to make sure your sails are maximum for that J. If they took an individual boat and rated it with a larger J, you COULD now have a bigger genoa, but you would rate faster.

Under PHRF, thankfully, as long as your sails do not exceed the maximum for the dimensions it was rated under (I of 50 and J of 16.25 in this case), they don't care if the mast were slightly farther aft.

Which is a long way of saying do not worry about getting the mast fwd in the deck cutout.

With respect to the fwd bend issue, it sounds like your problem MIGHT be too long of a backstay, but MOSTLY I think you can fix this by having your fwd and aft lowers set up correctly. Make sure the fwd lowers are noticeably tighter than the aft lowers, but get them both snug-with just slightly less tension that you have on the uppers. And for now, get the backstay as tight as you can.

This will induce some aft bend in lower half of the mast (the middle of the mast will poke forward). The main will set up a bit flatter, but it should prevent the mast from bending forward at the top.

So, I would put the base of the mast in the middle of the mast step, and locate it in the deck cutout so that it goes straight up, or has the slightest aft angle. If it is slightly forward (as seen in the cabin between the step and the cutout), the move the butt slightly forward until it looks straight up and down. Then set up the rig as we have described here or in the tuning guide from 81.

Sorry if this hazy-I was on doing Beer Cans last night on a J105!!

I have indicated you don't want forward BEND ever-and this is true. And for a cruiser, you should not have fwd RAKE generally. However, once you have the BS ADJUSTER rigged, you COULD in effect rake the mast forward when sailing downwind-this will reduce weather helm and make you a tad quicker downhill. All you need to do is ease the BS off completely when running (some folks take a genny halyard to the tack fitting and grind it snug to full te top slightly fwd.),. This lets the top of the rig fwd. HOWEVER cruisers should not worry about this-it is a racing technique used to maximize downwind speed, and may be more "intense" than your crew is up for..

BTW-I am now a "recovering " sailmaker, no longer in the business (although I still have contacts). I ran the Chicago Quantum Sails office from 2000-2002, and then co-ran the Chicago Doyle loft until late 04-then left sailmaking-but that is where I worked while saimaking in Chicago. My only ties to "the industry" now are that I do some on the water coaching and speaking engagements.
Cheers,
S
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
So, I guess I should first go measure my J dimension and see if the mast is close to where it belongs wrt the spec. When I had the rig tuned, Brion made a lot of adjustment to the backstay. I had a lot of sag in the forestay when I got the boat and he helped alot. He tried to induce a little forward bend in the middle with the lowers as you describe. I actually think I had some forward rake before he tuned it. We did not make any changes at the partners or the step.

One thing I am not sure of is how to tell if the mast is straight up and down (in column) fore and aft. Does it take a crane to move the mast on the step or just loosened wires and some appropriate and carefully applied leverage?

Anyway I'll measure the J and let you know.

Cheers,
 
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Seth

Sustaining Partner
Actually not needed

I would not worry about it. I was explaining what was meant in that guide, and also that if you are cruising, the exact setting for the J is not critical. Certainly not critical for establishing a decent tune of the rig. The main thing is to make sure the rake is close to correct. To do that, with the hs and bs loose, on a calm day let the main halyard shackle dangle just below the boom. The place where the halyard wire touches the boom (as measured from the back side of the mast) is the amount of aft rake. It should be somewhere just aft of the gooseneck. If it more than 5-6 inches aft, you might have too much rake. If the shackle wants to hang forward of the gooseneck (leaning against the back side of the spreaders) you have too much forward rake.

The basics are straight(centered) in the deck cutout, top of mast straight side to side and side shrouds tensioned as has already been described, 1-3 inches aft rake, and then adjust HS/BS so that you can keep your headstay sag under about 8 inches when sailing fully upwind loaded with your genoa and full main in about 12-14 knots of wind..
S
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
True, I'm not a racer. The J doesn't have to be exact.

I will check the rake next opportunity. I do not recall if the rigger attempted to measure/verify the rake, but I'll check the report.

Very good spelling on that tuning guide. :egrin:
 

stbdtack

Member III
Out this weekend and observed: 18-20 AWS, wheel at about 2:00 on a port tack. 20-22 AWS, wheel about 3:00; 22-24 AWS, wheel about 3:30. This was with full main and full 100 jib. At 24 AWS the rail is down but not quite under water. I think i could have dialed in a little less weather helm but I had non-sailors for crew and the autopilot is off being repaired so couldnt play too much. The full roach main didnt seem to change the helm. (as long as it was trimmed properly)

6:1 traveler is a huge improvement. I could bring the car up even with main in hard. Loving the 7.sumthin:1 mainsheet too. Didnt need the winch once even in the heavy breeze. Seth, the doubler on the cunningham was just the ticket. Feels more like dinghy sailing now that I can control everything without the winch. Main trim now is fun......:egrin:
 

stbdtack

Member III
On the Rake issue. Would like to compare forestay lengths from other 38 owners.
Anybody have a standard to measure by that is easier than going up and getting pin to pin?
Maybe a tape on the shackle pulled tight against the wing halyard exit? Assuming all our masts are the same height.....
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Actually Seth --

that was a REAL compliment. No mis-spellings I could spot. I would never ask if /dm gets the credit for that.
 

wurzner

Member III
Ben,

Your numbers are amazing if I read them right. Your saying with a full main and 100 percent, you had 1/4 turn of helm off the wind with ~22 Apparent. Without knowing how high you were pointing or how fast youwere over the water, I would guess you were in 17+ knots of wind true. Wow, that seems really good compared to what I've had to deal with and that is with a full battened main that is still pretty straight and a 90 percent high cut headsail. The thing that seems the most unusual is if my rail is hitting the water, it is time to reef and I have a lot more weather helm than a 1/4 turn.

what are you other 38 owners experiancing? By the way, I have the 6'6" keel which shouldhelp. I'm beggining to question how blown out my sails are because this seems a lot stiffer than what I've experianced and heard from other 38 owners.

regards
shaun
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Definately stiffer than what I am seeing but I think my rake is way off. I dont have my vang or BS adjuster working yet. Too much headstay sag. And I have not used my 100% enough to really compare. Ben when I get to shortening the headstay and setting up my rake I'll take a number from the wing halyard.
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Rake and heel

Footrope-thanks! Back then, DM probably did deserve the credit-I am much more anal about spelling nowadays.

No doubt, having appropriately flat sails once you are in true breezes over about 10 will make a marked difference in heel and helm..Shaun-I think you meant "on the wind" instead of "off the wind", right?

All: If the rail is at or under water at all, you have too much sail (or not enough rail meat). This is quite slow compared to being more upright-leeway is excessive, helm is cranked too much (draggy), and the hull shape in the water is no longer ideal. All of this = slow!!
 
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rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
Other E38 owners-FWIW and IIRC,
I have between 1/4 to 1/2 turn in the wheel to counter weather helm with wind speeds 22-24knots if I haven't trimmed the main just right. Thats with a full batten main and 130genoa. I can reduce the weather helm by letting the traveller out, cranking down the vang and putting 2500lbs into the BS adjuster. This flattens the sails out nicely and reduces the weather helm to maybe 1/6 to 1/4 a turn on the wheel. I also release the mainsheet just to the point where I get the "happy bubble" on the mainsail luff fat. My rail has not yet been in the water as I reef if it gets any wilder. I also have the added ballast Mars Metal keel bulb. Not sure the difference between true and apparent but I am not that into figuring that stuff out, I just sail. Hope this helps, RT
 

stbdtack

Member III
Measured the forestay using the wing halyard. With the shackle hard against the exit It's 51"8" to the center of the stem head fitting pin. Thats with about 1500lbs on the backstay.

Rob thats exactly my sail trim and adjustments when I was checking the helm in 22-24 kts AWS. Flatten it all out, drop the traveler and dump a little mainsheet to depower the head, BTW I was hard on the wind, speed about 6.5kts.

I dont usually reef since another 100 yards and it will blowing 5 kts.
 
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