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Bilge pump upgrades

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
Hello All,
I am looking to upgrade my bilge pump in my 1983 E38. If you have this style of boat with the TAFG grid it doesn't leave a whole lot of room to fit a larger blige pump down into that cramped space between keelbolts. Also the TAFG grid has molded in pass-thru's for hoses that don't look easily enlarged so even getting a bigger hose in will be a task. So my questions are these:
1. How do you fit any bilge pump larger than a Rule 500/800 in a E38?
2. Any ideas on installing larger hose?
3. Strangely enough both the single Rule 500 bilge pump and the second Rule 500 shower sump pump on my boat are attached to the same thruhull with a "T" Obviously not an ideal situation. I plan to install a dedicated thruhull for the bilge pump, larger if I can fit it.
4. Some recommend a siphon break in the bilge lines, some don't... My bilge pump has one and the shower pump does not. Both lines are looped to a high point on the starboard side of the engine room. Seems high enough to me but I am not sure.

Thanks, RT
 

u079721

Contributing Partner
You don't really need to be limited by the space within the bilge area. On my 1989 Ericson 38 the bilge pump was a large Par #37202 unit mounted on the bulkhead under the sink in the galley. One hose ran from the pump to the bilge by the keel bolts, and was fitted with a strainer box. The outlet hose ran aft to a through hull under the stern counter.

So you have lots of options on pumps. As for finding room for a larger diamerter hose - that might be a tuffy.
 

NateHanson

Sustaining Member
Yep second what Steve said. You can go with an electric diaphram bilge pump. These are self priming so they can be mounted remotely (under the sink or something), and they also don't require a vented loop in the output line because they have internal joker valves (just like a manual diaphram bilge pump). So backflooding isn't a problem.

Any centrifugal bilge pump (like the rule or atwood types) with a thru-hull that could possibly be under the water line at any time must have a vented loop. Otherwise you can sink your boat.
 

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
Hmmmm,
The recommendation for a diaphram style bilge pump goes against all I have read concerning them. I have always read diaphram style pumps are prone to failure, have poor GPM ratings and they burn out if run dry. I must say I am pleased to hear that some use them without issue since a remote mounted diaphram pump would be the easiest to setup. I was going to try to squeeze a Rule 2000 into the aft-most bilge section and then put the float switch in the next forward bilge well. I had wanted to also install a diaphram alongside the Rule 2000 strictly for keeping the bilge really dry. Any additional information is welcome! Thanks, RT
 

NateHanson

Sustaining Member
Our par bilge pumps have worked well for us.

They run dry just fine, pull suction very well, have higher head than centrifugal pumps (can pump higher). The only problems we've had with ours is if we keep our boat in the water during the winter. We have burned out motors from time to time when we let the pump ice up while running. But the parts are easy to come by. These pumps are very easily serviced.

Nate
 

Glyn Judson

Moderator
Moderator
Rob, I have an ITT Jabsco diaphragm pump in our boat because our bliges are so narrow as to preclude using a large centrifugal pump down there. I'd estimate that my bilge is only 3" wide or even less. I have a bronze pick up with gross particle screen in the bottom and a 90 degree elbow with barb leading to a length of 5/8" reinforced vinyl hose that goes part way up and is joined to an ITT filter screen with clear plastic sight bowl. That inturn leads to more hose and to the pump. My pump is located on a small shelf in the inboard corner of the port lazarette and in turn, the discharge hose leads to a bronze mushroom fitting in the port side of the hull. To see a photo of the pump installed, please visit our Ericson 31 web site at http://www.ericson31.com. Click on the Photos section and then on our boat, hull #55. The first in the series of photos is of the pump in place. The last in that series is of a solid state bilge pump switch I have fitted to a teak 1 X 3. It's called a See Water pump and can be viewed more closely in a current West Marine Catalog. In the case of my installation into the 44" deep bilge, I had the cable custom made at their factory to seven feet long instead of the normal three feet. That extra length got the terminals out of the salty bilge and into the engine room where it's a lot more satisfactory to have a terminal strip on a bulkhead. True that the pump doesn't provide any safety factor when it comes to keeping the boat afloat but my requirements of the pump are that it simply keep the bilge dry. The nature of the diaphragm design prevents water from flowing back down and into the bilge, thereby restarting the pump, etc. Think back to when you were a kid and when you capped the end of your straw full of Coca Cola. You could remove the straw completely from your glass and the Coke inside the straw would remain. The same applies to these pumps. In addition, the See Water switch will run a full eight seconds after it no longer senses water contacting the copper probe on the bottom of its encapsulated module. I have a combined seven foot rise from the bottom of the bilge to the through hull fitting and that darned pump just keeps on keeping on. It's imperative that you have that ITT filter bowl in line up stream of the pump because even the smallest bit of debris in one of the one-way valves will render the pump totally ineffective requiring complete disassembly to remove the sliver of wood or what ever that's stuck in the valve. Hint: If you decide to buy a pump like that, get it used at a local consignment chandlery for a lot less than a new one. Minney's Yacht Surplus in Costa Mesa CA had scores of used ones the other day when I was there ranging in price from $15.00 up to $40.00. Know what you want before visiting your local chandler and familiarize yourself with the subtle differences between models. That way you can make well reasoned purchase and get the pump you want the first time. Good luck, Glyn
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Anybody find the vented loop in an '80s E38 bilge system?

I have a setup similar to the original post here. Yet the Ericson plumbing diagram dated 1980 shows a remote bilge pump near the engine (not in the bilge), which I don;t have.

My system relies on check valves to prevent siphoning, which is unacceptable and usually screws up centrifugal pumps anyhow.

bilge systems 21980.JPG
 
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footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
No vented loops

I have the PAR remote diaphragm pumps for the main bilge and shower bilge. There are no check valves required and no vented loops in my system. If you decide to install diaphragm pumps put a drop of red thread lock on the gear set screws on the pump and motor shafts. That's the only trouble I've had with my shower bilge pump.
 
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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Very good. I am thinking of the Par now called Jabsco 37202-0000 Bilge Pump. I guess under the sink, where the bilge hose emerges. I am not looking forward to the installation.

Some further reading suggests that siphon breaks are not always installed on bilge lines since the outlet is above the waterline at anchor. Although siphon is possible with the outlet submerged, it would break any time the outlet separated from water.

It may be that the original diaphragm pump on this boat was discarded and replaced with common submersible centrifugal pumps.

Not such a hot idea, I have concluded.

A basic Rule (centrifugal) pump in the bilge presents many problems. It sits on keel bolts. It leaves a lot of water in the bilge. It tempts for a check valve in the line.

However, an operative check valve defeats the prime, and centrifugal pumps are not self-priming. Therefore, they run but just make little bubbles. In a seaway, you assume it is pumping continuously. You assume you have a continual leak you can't find. This drove me nuts on the way to Hawaii.

On the current boat, both Raritan ball/spring in-line check valves were stuck (the shower sump valve packed with hair). If a check valve is stuck in any way, a centrifugal pump will not work because, although high volume, it produces very low pressure. Fifteen feet of water in the hose, held back by a check valve, may be enough to defeat it.

So, if your bilge pump system is confusingly unreliable, these common installations may be the cause. Maine Sail is emphatic that check valves should be removed from any centrifugal pump system.

A remote diaphragm pump allows a hose that can get to the real bilge floor, and has a much higher "head" capacity (it can raise water higher).

But they don't pump as fast, foul easier and so require a prefilter and a clean bilge.

Sometimes it is better just not to think about any of it. Because once you start.....
 
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footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
I can attach some photos this weekend. Main bilge pump is under the galley sink. Shower bilge is under the aft dinette seat. The float switches take up some room though in the triangular section at the ends of the bilge.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Our '88 model boat came with two of those "Jabsco 37202-0000" series bilge pumps standard. I have replaced one with a newer model when it stopped working.
Good quality pumps in general, and not cheap, either.

I like that type of pump since it cannot back-syphon. I did raise/loop the discharge lines a foot or so above their discharge point, inside the back of the boat. That keeps incidental water from tending to run forward when seas climb up the transom.
When we were running down wind in 5' seas in 2014, doing 10+ for hours at at time in 2014 there was water up the transom a little ways over those discharge thru hulls quite often.

Loren
 

Joliba

1988 E38-200 Contributing Member
Our 1988 E38-200 came with the factory Jabsco 37202-0000 diaphragm pump when we bought her in 2008. There was only a switch on the main breaker panel to operate it...no automatic switch. With the amount of rain coming down the mast, this would be unsatisfactory for us. Before we launched, we added a switch. Though space can be found for the newer small float switches, we opted to try a Johnson Ultima switch with no moving parts. This has a much smaller profile in the tiny bilge compartment between the FG members. We also added a West Marine bilge pump switch on the side of the galley cabinet within easy reach when working in the bilge. That switch has Auto, Off, and On positions as well as an LED and a dedicated fuse.
So, starting in the bilge--there is a bronze strum box with a plastic coarse strainer (multiple 1/4" holes drilled into a piece of plastic), a hose leading to a conventional finer mesh screen strainer near the intake of the diaphragm pump that is mounted beneath the galley sink, and an outflow hose (with no high loop or siphon break) leading to the aft through hull in the counter. We replaced the old pump with a new one due to rust. Once before I had replaced the diaphragm. The Johnson switch quit the first year. But its replacement has functioned well ever since. I'm satisfied with the setup. I think that the diaphragm pump is slower than some of the centrifugal pumps that fit in the bilge. However, this is not the pump meant to rescue the boat from sinking.

Mike Jacker
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Good information. I am looking at an electronic "float" switch too (Water Witch, photo below), and a three-way on/off/automatic too.

I will leave the little shower sump as it is, replacing the check valve. Failure there means little, and I doubt we'll be taking many showers.

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|51|2234245|2856131&id=2847629

attachment.php
 

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Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
Good information. I am looking at an electronic "float" switch too (Water Witch, photo below), and a three-way on/off/automatic too.

I will leave the little shower sump as it is, replacing the check valve. Failure there means little, and I doubt we'll be taking many showers.

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|51|2234245|2856131&id=2847629

attachment.php
I replaced my mechanical float switch with one of these because they are highly reliable. I've been totally satisfied with it.
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
I went down to the boat today to remove the solid vang for maintenance (should be done every 6 months not every six years). You know how it goes. Upon leaving, I always check the bilge pump. No go nada. I got down into the bilge to check the float. No juice. Next, I opened the panel. No power at the switch. I jumped the switch. Working pump! Next, I checked the breaker. It had been switched off. Getting old is so hard!
 

Joliba

1988 E38-200 Contributing Member
Christian,
When you get a 3 way switch, be sure there is a full detente in the "on" position. Many of them have an intermittent spring returning the switch to "off" when your finger is removed. The switch for my shower sump is like that. I remember having to look around a bit to find the right switch for the bilge pump.
Mike
 

Pat C.

Member III
Original equipment two impeller pumps...garbage, easily fouled, failed routinely even with nitrile impellers. Replaced both with diaphragm pumps, Whale 320 primary bilge pump, Whale 220 shower bilge ( this one is designed for that purpose). These are mounted in the engine compartment. Secondary main bilge pump Rule 2000, mounted in the bilge. Used a hole saw to cut additional channels in the grid, then used schedule 40 PVC pipe glued into the holes using 5200. The only time I've ever used 5200 on the boat (got some on my hands, took a week and a half to get it off I think). The main bilge pump used to draw power from the panel, now only the shower pump does, the primary and secondary are both connected directly to the batteries (two battery banks, one to each). All the pumps have large gauge wire feeding them to allow continuous duty, even the shower bilge in case things start to get deep. 10 or 12 gauge I think. Calculated the wire size with the Blue Sea app for that purpose.

The most important part to me is the switches. I've had many over the years, all seemed unreliable in some way, several proved it. All three pumps have their own switch, I now use Ultra pump switches, expensive but reliable. Primary uses mini version, comes on first, I think around 1 1/2 inches. If it doesn't work or is overwhelmed then the Rule pump comes on at 2 1/2 inches or so, that switch is tied to a very loud alarm and sets it off at around 4 inches I think. All the exact on off levels on their website.

www.tefgel.com

I read somewhere where someone wrote the older he got, to more obsessive he became to fixing the things that could sink his boat. I guess this proves I'm old...
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Pictures

Main bilge
20160501_093900_001-small.jpg
Lifted the manual pump pickup to show the other pickup
20160501_094004-small.jpg
Main bilge pump under galley sink. An inline filter is tucked in there next to the stringer.
20160501_093700-small.jpg
Shower bilge
20160501_094056-small.jpg
Shower bilge pump and filter under aft dinette seat
20160501_093743-crop.jpg
 
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