Diesel Heaters - Forced Air & "Hydronic"

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Hey Loren, didn't you convince me to install a propane Dickinson??? I can say it works quite well for the scenarios you describe. I just couldn't find a way to work out the ducting for a forced air heater, the prices were pretty steep, and the hydro systems even more so. I'm happy I went with the Dickinson, and now I have a good reason to convert my stove to propane too. RT

Mea Culpa.
As difficult as it might be to install some (minimal) ducting, I may have to tackle the project...
The admiral is, so far, adamant that she does not want a bulkhead heater in one of the two lounging and reading locations in the cabin and also does not want a 3" hole in the cabin top. I agree with the second objection as well.

Remember that I am only the Captain of our little yacht, and in view of our also owning three dinghies of various ages and styles, she may even choose the additional title of Chief of Naval Operations!
:)

Cheers,
Loren
 

hodo

Member III
Loren, are you folks coming up for the Seattle boat show? talk to Jeff @ Boat Electric, he has most of the answers if not all. And he is a nice un assuming guy. I've dealt with them for Espars on the 30+ as well as the 38. No connection with them, just really satisfied. If you are coming up, let us know, maybe we can get together w/ the esteemened Mr. Engle and a few others. Craig, Ellen?
stay warm and dry, Harold And Jessie
 

Cory B

Sustaining Member
BTU's

Hey Loren,

We haven't pulled the trigger yet on a heater (still saving our pennies). However, I calculated for our boat about 6000 BTU's would be "adequate". This seems to be less than most manufacturers would recommend. I arrived at this number by our 1500 watt (about 5100 btus) electric heater being totally fine on 50 degree days, not too bad on 40 degree days, and enough to take the chill off on 30 degree days with our nasy east wind (which you know well this time of year). We also keep our house at 60-64 degrees in the winter so maybe we're a little unusual.
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Sunday, Jan 25th

Loren, are you folks coming up for the Seattle boat show? talk to Jeff @ Boat Electric, he has most of the answers if not all. And he is a nice un assuming guy. I've dealt with them for Espars on the 30+ as well as the 38. No connection with them, just really satisfied. If you are coming up, let us know, maybe we can get together w/ the esteemened Mr. Engle and a few others. Craig, Ellen?
stay warm and dry, Harold And Jessie

Hey folks,

We will have to go to the show this Sunday. Ellen has a class Saturday and I am supposed to leave next Friday to go to Singapore for a week. There is a possibility that the departure will be delayed, but there's no way to tell until too late. We would be up for meeting who ever is available for breakfast, lunch or dinner on Sunday.

We like the ESPAR Hydronic 5. If the 12 gal. water heater gives up, we'll be strongly considering not replacing it since we plumbed in a coolant-to-water heat exchanger for instant hot water. That's a big-ass water heater even in the 38. The diesel heater works great. The price was fairly steep, but we have plans for the boat that should make it worthwhile. The coolant line routing worked well, avoiding having to route a large duct. The air heaters ARE nice for drying things out, from what I hear. I recommend talking to Boat Electric. They package the control relays and other wiring that has to come together very nicely.
 
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rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
Mea Culpa.
As difficult as it might be to install some (minimal) ducting, I may have to tackle the project...
The admiral is, so far, adamant that she does not want a bulkhead heater in one of the two lounging and reading locations in the cabin and also does not want a 3" hole in the cabin top. I agree with the second objection as well.

Remember that I am only the Captain of our little yacht, and in view of our also owning three dinghies of various ages and styles, she may even choose the additional title of Chief of Naval Operations!
:)

Cheers,
Loren

Ya know, thats kinda funny. The "Admiral" on my boat curls up like a cat with a book under the forced air discharge on our Dickinson, reads three pages and then falls asleep! Actually this is good, as I am always warm, having acclimated to working outdoors in the dead of winter, she parks it under the heater and I am still comfy in other cooler areas in the boat. If the whole boat was one completely uniform temp then likely one of us would be sweating and the other freezing. Such is life. Actually, cutting the exhaust hole is not as bad as it sounds once you make sure its exactly where you want it! To each his own. RT
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Loren, are you folks coming up for the Seattle boat show? talk to Jeff @ Boat Electric, he has most of the answers if not all. And he is a nice un assuming guy. I've dealt with them for Espars on the 30+ as well as the 38. No connection with them, just really satisfied. If you are coming up, let us know, maybe we can get together w/ the esteemened Mr. Engle and a few others. Craig, Ellen?
stay warm and dry, Harold And Jessie

Thanks for thinking of us! Kathy has no interest in the Show, so I may make a one day trip up-n-back tomorrow (Monday). Weather looks better tomorrow than it will for the whole next week, as well.
I will certainly talk to the heater vendors about a future installation.
As to dinner, let's talk about a spring weekend road trip to the Emerald City and a social happening of some sort. :)

Cheers,
Loren
 

Greg Ross

Not the newest member
Espar Hydronic and the rain

My only experience in the PNW with an Espar Hydronic was on a Catalina 37. We spent a weekend between Sydney, BC and Poets' Cove, South Pender and I was not impressed. Outside temps were in the 30 deg F range and lower overnight and the interior literally rained with condensation. That was with just two warm bodies aboard. I believe he later added some dehumidifying capability. I was bunked in the V-berth and I could not believe the volume of water that condensed and literally ran off the glazing of the deck hatch.
If I recall the installed cost with three heat exchangers was over $7000. Cdn.-2 years ago.
Have to believe the Forced Air system, particularly if it's return air can be outside air would be much dryer.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
more furnace questions

(A good subtitle for this reply might be: "the more you know the less you are sure of")

Seattle Boat Show was very lightly attended... not good for the (surviving) brokers but nice to be able to spend some time with the vendors.
Had a lengthly talk with the reps for Webasto, Espar, and Wallas.
The good news is that, in a niche market like ours, no one totally insults the other brand or rep. :rolleyes:
There are, however, some interesting design differences... The major one I am now more aware of is that the first two are "turbine" style designs with all motor/fan functions on a common shaft, and the the Wallas quite different, with the circulation and heating components separate. Also, the Wallas uses an entirely different run cycle. The Webasto and Espar, if I recall correctly, power up and run on demand, and therefore do run their startup and shutdown cycle whenever the thermostat calls for more heat. They use no power when "off".

The Wallas goes thru its startup cycle and ramps up the burner use and the circulation fan upon demand and then reduces down to a "pilot light" (my words) standby mode with the burner chamber remaining hot and using a trickle of diesel and power until the thermostat calls for a quick ramping up to heat the boat again. It goes thru a complete shutdown cycle only when you tell it to do so.

The gist of the info is that neither uses significantly more or less power/fuel, but do their work differently. Also, the Wallas rep claims that theirs is intrinsically very quiet because it uses a separate circulation fan that is not tied to the burner function and is virtually noiseless inside or outside the boat.
The Webasto guy, when quizzed about outside noise, will sell an ss mufler for an additional $100.

For our size of boat interior, we would probably be shopping a Wallas Nautic 40D model, or a Webasto Air Top 3500ST, or an Espar Airtronic D4.

If anyone else has some input on these, especially the Wallas, please do chime in! Around here the most common model I see on nearby boats is the Webasto. There are some Espars, but the ones I hear about are older models. Webasto has the most retail outlets by far... including "discount" vendors in my fair city. FWIW, most of the ones I am aware of on other boats are quite noisy from outside, altho not too noticeable when you are inside.

Regards,
Loren
 
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Mike.Gritten

Member III
Loren,

when we were going through this discovery phase before we purchased our Espar system, we made the same observations you are noting. Our boat came with a VERY old Wallas kerosene forced air furnace installed and my first thought (being a cheap ba*tard) was to try and have this fixed (It was not running and looked dangerous). There was NO parts or service available anywhere in Canada that I could find - only Scan Marine (I think that's the correct name) in Seattle. We had to go another route. Friends we knew were split on Webasto and Espar, each preferring whatever they happened to have installed on their boat - they ALL liked their current units. I don't think that there is much difference between them and both are "marinized" versions of heaters with a long history in the tractor trailer heating business and as such have extensive parts/service networks worldwide - a big issue if you plan to travel with your boat. Another player in the market is Hurricane which originates somewhere in the PNW and they offer a very nice hot water method heater (not forced air). Their installations tend to be more expensive than the others.
BTW, check out the big truck dealers/suppliers for pricing on these units as I just got a quote from the local place in Langley, BC for an Espar D4 Airtronic kit (heater, hoses, exhaust, fuel pickup and lines, fuel pump, wiring and the basic control panel) at only $1825 CDN, or approx $1500 US! Of course no exhaust through-hull is included :confused:.
We have been very happy with our Espar D5 LC forced air unit on Papillon and are looking to install one on our new boat, Wanderlust V (assuming all the stars line up!)
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Update: picture of a lpg heater in a 38

I found this picture on Yachtworld for an '83 E-38. They did indeed mount it where the original wood stove was mounted by the factory.
So, it's do-able, and someone did it. Looks like a nice ss heat shield behind it.

(An older thread, but the topic is always fresh...)

Loren
 

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Doug177

Member III
Where to Vent Exhaust for Espar or Webasto Heater?

I am heading up to Escanaba, MI this coming weekend to pick up my "brand-new" 1987 E35-3. I am also taking my small Espar heater with me to install in the boat for the trip back to lower, if not warmer Michigan. The High School Mascot in Escanaba is the Eskymo if you want an idea of the temperatures involved.

Do my learned Ericson associates have any ideas on where I might put my double walled stainless exhaust gas port? It is the slanted one for fiberglass hulls and will have a muffler between it and the unit.

The obvious choice would be on the slanted transom. How far up? Which side? Is it all balsa cored? How thick? The hole would be about 1-5/8" and I would like to oversize drill it and do an epoxy ring around to seal it.

What will I unintentionally melt and wish I hadn't drilled the hole where I did?

Doug
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Drilling large scary holes in your boat...

I am heading up to Escanaba, MI this coming weekend to pick up my "brand-new" 1987 E35-3. I am also taking my small Espar heater with me to install in the boat for the trip back to lower, if not warmer Michigan. The High School Mascot in Escanaba is the Eskymo if you want an idea of the temperatures involved.

Do my learned Ericson associates have any ideas on where I might put my double walled stainless exhaust gas port? It is the slanted one for fiberglass hulls and will have a muffler between it and the unit.

The obvious choice would be on the slanted transom. How far up? Which side? Is it all balsa cored? How thick? The hole would be about 1-5/8" and I would like to oversize drill it and do an epoxy ring around to seal it.

What will I unintentionally melt and wish I hadn't drilled the hole where I did?
Doug

Ha! Drilling a hole in our boat always invokes feelings of dread! "Measure twice and cut once" is old carpenter's advice......
:)
Others with similar installations on 80's-style transoms will have input I am sure. I can assure you that the transom is Not cored. Neither is your hull, for that matter. No need for an epoxy ring, IMHO.

Melting: yeah you want to careful with the route and support for the exhaust system. There is an insulated wrap available to "blanket" these small pipes and I would advise getting some.

Wise move getting a muffler. The Espar, like some others, is an axial flow kind of design and seems to make quite a "roar" when operating. I have been shopping heaters and the dealer for Webasto seems to recommend always adding a muffler to the already-pricy package. :rolleyes:

Keep us posted on the install. I live just north of the 45th parallel and fall and spring can be chilly for spending nights on the water here, too.

Loren
 
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footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Exhaust location and an update

Well, after 10+ years we are happy with our Espar Hydronic 5 diesel heater. Our exhaust is located on the hull below the cove stripes and a little forward of the transom. We have not had any issues with sooting on the hull or melting anything. No problems with mooring lines running nearby either. We have a muffler in there and highly recommend it. Quieter is better for all. I hope your installation goes well.

The rear lazarette transom boiler mount has been a good location. It is out of the way and doesn't affect storage particularly. Working on it there is interesting. I had to dismount it and re-mount it during the recent layup. It's tight, and at 5' 11" it felt like I had to bend bones to get in there sometimes. I had it checked out on the bench because it would not start after months without being run. Turns out I was disturbing the fuel lift pump wiring when installing the nav gear and a pin pulled back inside the the connector body. The error codes pointed me in that direction and after resetting the pin it worked fine. I have since extended the pump power wire and routed it off the bottom of the boat back there behind the water heater. I did not have the boiler overhauled. It had such low time that the serviceman said it should operate just fine.

The performance has been as we expected - excellent. It starts reliably and heats the center of the cabin during our quiet evenings. In the mornings it is joined by the propane stove when we heat water for coffee. Condensation is not remarkable, but we frankly haven't tested it to our limits of cold weather operation. We do not run it at night while we sleep.

During our 13-month layup 2014-2015 we replaced the aging 12-gallon Raritan with a 6-gallon Torrid SS water heater. The heater had to come out so that I could wire the new navigation gear. I don't know the yard did it, but I'm sure it was a mess. The Torrid really hasn't had a workout yet. The 'instant hot water' v-tube heat exchanger installed the same way on top of the water heater, as did the mixer plumbing on the hot water outlet. The instant hot water feature is great. It takes about 10 minutes running time to be ready to take a hot shower. Since we are not heating the water in the water heater, we do have to run the heater all during the shower. If we don't need the cabin heat, we turn the fans off.

If you would like any other installation pictures I have a few. For now I'll just post the exhaust location. The exhaust pipe and muffler are spaghettied into the starboard side of the lazarette and are out of the way.

Rub_Rail02_Stern.jpg
 
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Dave N

Member III
Webasto diesel heater

We have a Webasto diesel heater and love it. Exhausts thru the transom and intakes air from the cabin for heating. Compact unit fits easily in the engine compartment and it draws fuel from the main tank. The forced air fan is very very quiet. It really puts out the heat.
 
Hi Loren, question for you. We have recently purchased a 30+ and it looks like our solid fuel heater was installed in a similar location. Due to safety concerns we have to adjust our cushions to provide the necessary clearance. The photo you show is without the cushions in place. What did the final install look like with the cushions on place?

Thanks in advance,
Shannon
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Hi Loren, question for you. We have recently purchased a 30+ and it looks like our solid fuel heater was installed in a similar location. Due to safety concerns we have to adjust our cushions to provide the necessary clearance. The photo you show is without the cushions in place. What did the final install look like with the cushions on place?

Thanks in advance,
Shannon

If you refer to the Propane bulkhead heater in reply 6, I believe that the cushions went back in, stock.
I will see if I can get the current owner to comment on that.
I did a coastal delivery on that boat, but slept on the quarter berth and do not recall if anyone slept on the starb. settee.

Post Update:
For pix, see reply 19 in this other thread:

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...e-your-interior-cushions!&p=119198#post119198
 
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Thanks Loren

If you refer to the Propane bulkhead heater in reply 6, I believe that the cushions went back in, stock.
I will see if I can get the current owner to comment on that.
I did a coastal delivery on that boat, but slept on the quarter berth and do not recall if anyone slept on the starb. settee.
 

TimTimmeh

Member II
Chinese Diesel Heaters

I have an original Volvo Flygmotor (Ardic) forced air heater and it runs like a champ after 30 years, puts out loads of heat but it is insanely noisy (probably needs new bearings on the fan motor); contacted the original retailer to see if I could get some advice or a shop manual, no luck - want me to get a new espar or wallas;

So i've been doing a bit of research, and I think the days of these insanely priced "boat" furnaces are numbered. 3 or 4 years ago you started seeing the Russian Espar knock-off Planar at about 1/2 - 2/3 the price of an espar. There was even a local dealer that installed them. Now, over the last year (or at least since the last time I was looking for heat) it looks like the Chinese have started producing their own knock offs and these can be had for less then $200. There is currently a huge following of these in the rv/van conversion community in the UK with a very active FB community. People are even making their own Arduino based controllers.

Personally I am reserving judgment, I will put up with my noisy Ardic as long as I can.

Edit - Didn't realize that this is replying to a seriously old post; I had heaters on my mind.
 
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sgwright67

Member III
I have an original Volvo Flygmotor (Ardic) forced air heater and it runs like a champ after 30 years, puts out loads of heat but it is insanely noisy (probably needs new bearings on the fan motor); contacted the original retailer to see if I could get some advice or a shop manual, no luck - want me to get a new espar or wallas;

So i've been doing a bit of research, and I think the days of these insanely priced "boat" furnaces are numbered. 3 or 4 years ago you started seeing the Russian Espar knock-off Planar at about 1/2 - 2/3 the price of an espar. There was even a local dealer that installed them. Now, over the last year (or at least since the last time I was looking for heat) it looks like the Chinese have started producing their own knock offs and these can be had for less then $200. There is currently a huge following of these in the rv/van conversion community in the UK with a very active FB community. People are even making their own Arduino based controllers.

Personally I am reserving judgment, I will put up with my noisy Ardic as long as I can.

Edit - Didn't realize that this is replying to a seriously old post; I had heaters on my mind.

I looked into both the Planar and Chinese knockoffs a year ago for our Westfalia, but decided to go with the Espar D2, which I found in Vancouver for $1200 CAD. At the time, the Chinese units were about $400 I think, but noise, power consumption and safety were concerns; only the Espar had the newer multi speed fan and burner control unit, the knockoffs were based on the older D1LC Espar design. This may have changed by now. In a boat, sound might be a bit less of an issue with the unit tucked away in the engine bay.
I still haven't installed the D2, so there is a fairly good chance it will end up in the boat we end up buying so we can get out on the water sooner... :)
 

sgwright67

Member III
Wallas Nordic DT stovetop/heater - any experience?

I've heard good things about the Wallas diesel furnaces, but nothing about these units:

https://www.scanmarineusa.com/online-store/wallas-nordic-dt-diesel-stove-heater/

I came across one in an old Columbia 36 and didn't realize what it was at first. It looks just like an electric induction stovetop, but it's diesel powered, and includes a fan in the top for heating the cabin. A bit on the pricey side, but if you're looking for a stove and a heater, and wish to avoid propane, simplify installation, and save space, they could be a good solution.

Any experience with these amongst the group here?
 
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