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E35 or E35-3 Grid/Beam Cracking?

escapade

Inactive Member
things to consider

Geoff
Your idea for the "bridge" under the mast looks very good. Something to bear in mind when constructing it though. If/when you weld galvanized steel you generate a VERY toxic gas plus you burn off the zinc coating which means you are left with just raw steel exposed. Welding stainless is ok if you then "pasivate" it afterwards to remove the free iron molecules that float to the surface from the welding process. This is why stainless always starts rusting along the edge of a bead of weld first. Fabricating ot of aluminum is probably the best alternative, just use heavy enough (1/4 to 5/16 thick) plate to be effective.
BTW, the area under the spar on the E34's is MUCH more robust that the photo's show the 35's to be. Obviously someone recognized the weakness & corrected it.
Good luck to those who need to do this repair!
Have fun & sail fast
Bud E34 "Escapade"
 

Sean Engle

Your Friendly Administrator
Administrator
Founder
? Materials ?

Yeah, I was thinking that instead of galvanized it would be better to do a stainless or (as suggested) aluminum version...

You could also take the opportunity to include a collar for the mast boot (and - with the collar, you could include a weep path for the water to pass through - which would solve the problem of the water running everywhere).

//sse
 
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Diane&Chuck

Junior Member
Cracked Beams - no worse

As it turns out the beam was not cracked ----it was total deteriorated.
You can break up the beam with one hand into small pieces.
This was all hidden from view with the fiberglass and gelcoat.
All this was cut out by the yard.
Two beams were affected.
They are "sounding out" the rest of the beams since these looked so bad.
We are suspecting a huge fresh water flood at one time.
Perhaps from shower, a storm, or massive tank overflow.
Fixing everything with composites and metal plates.
We will be putting down new sole.
She should be very beautiful and very functional soon.
Too bad we are spending so much on stuff that won't show.
A new paint or gel coat job would be so much rewarding and have so much better bragging rights :
Pictures will be coming.
Thanks everyone
Diane
 

Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
I look forward to the pictures. However, I am not certain what you mean by a "flood". In SoCal freezing can't be an issue and fiberglass is made to sit in water . . . at least bilges have water in them continually.
 

Diane&Chuck

Junior Member
Flood may have not been huge.
Thomas at the yard said maybe it was water down the mast over a long period of time.

However there is damage to the sole.
Perhaps previous owner did something to overfill the fresh water tank?
Or had the grandkids showering forever with no budge pump working?
They mainly cruised for 1 to 2 week trips and used the boat for scuba diving.
(There is a removable custom tank holder that he made.)

Damage was really bad and hidden. And very dangerous.
Anyway I think we will have a nice boat when it's all done.
I am sending the drawing and comments down to Thomas at the yard today.
Thank you for all the input.

There are no pictures of this area from survey- Very strange. I am following up on that, but it seems there are many disclaimers in the survey. Not sure what good a survey is. Doesn't give me any confidence anymore.

Diane
 

Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
Speaking as a lawyer, I wouldn't give up on pursuing the surveyor. Depending on the state, courts will often decline to enforce such disclaimers, particularly in consumer situations. Moreover, if your surveyor is smart he will have errors & omissions coverage (http://www.insuremarine.com/E&O/eandosurveyor.html). I would check with a local admiralty attorney.
 
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Steve

Member III
Very Rare QC problem

:confused: Clearly the grid rotted, for lack of better words. However -can anyone shed some light on how this happens with fiber glass. We all get water down the mast, pump it out and sponge the rest. Prehaps this boat had a rare QC problem with bad layup of resin mixed by a new employee on Friday afternoon etc.. taking 20 years to show up! The thought is -all of our 35-3's would be experiencing this issue if it was anything else and the CG would have it listed by now.

Steve
35-3 #156 Amazing Grace
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
This reference to "rot" puzzles me. My '88 has "hat stringers" formed over foam. This is quite common on boats from different builders. The inner foam material is not structural, in any case.
The coring just gives a shape for the heavy roving to conform to in order to manufacture a beam configuration. It's the layup schedule and "web" size that gives the strength to the stringers.
At least that's my understanding of it -- Martin, Seth... help me out!
:rolleyes:
On our boat the limber holes thru all these "stringers" exposes foam if you poke into the interiors of the passages.

So, even if wood were used instead of foam, I would guess that it was just a form for the FPR construction.
Now, if the layup of the glass and resin was not done properly, that's another issue. :(

Best,
Loren in PDX
1988 Olson 34 Fresh Air
 
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Steve

Member III
Anything further on the grid cracking?

Still trying (waiting) to figure out what caused the failure posted originally. Below is my grid for comparison.
 

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escapade

Inactive Member
regardless!

The damage could possibly have been caused by gross overtightening of the rigging, defective layup of the FRP, or a combination of both. Regardless of the cause the surveyor should have found this!!! I have had 3 boats surveyed plus sold 2 of them which meant they were subject to surveys. When I sold my 30+ the surveyor was on his hands & knees with a mirror looking in the bilge under the floor for signs of damage. Something as obvious as this should NOT have been overlooked! The repairs required are not going to be cheap and I feel you would be entitled to some relief from the surveyor because this is something that affects the purchase price. That's why you have it done. Plus most reputable surveyor's belong to an association that accredits them and they should be notified, also.
The diagrams of the fixes proposed should give you a repair that is if anything stronger than original construction. My E34 has this type of structure but it has no coreing material. I believe that it was laid up in a seperate mold & then added to the hull during construction. This is a reasonably good way to construct as you don't want materials that can rot in the bilge area forming a structural componet. As far as the cabin sole Geoff and I can give you all sorts of pictures & advice as we both have replaced ours. This is mostly due to water coming down inside the spar, running across the stringers and soaking the sole from the bottom which was unfinished. My new sole has several coats of epoxy to seal it plus the spar varnish on the top side.
Good luck in getting some relief.
Have fun & sail fast
Bud E34 "Escapade" :)
 

Diane&Chuck

Junior Member
Beam repair

We are still waiting on the beam repair. So far the old beams were cut out and new composite put in their place. Also some metal plates were added for support. That is all still exposed. I believe the plan is to fiberglass and gel this up. I do have some pictures. I don't know how to attach them.

Your beam look fine in your pictures. You may want to look into the beef up however. The guy working on our boat says that there is a space between the beam and the keel that should not be there. (This space is covered up with fiberglass and gel so it is hidden.) It is my understanding that this would be a design flaw.
 

Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
To attach pictures use the "Manage Attachments" button at the bottom of the posting page. Just select the photo(s) ("Browse") and upload them. You have to limit the size to about 165 kb, as I recall.
 

Sean Engle

Your Friendly Administrator
Administrator
Founder
Image Attachments

Geoff Johnson said:
To attach pictures use the "Manage Attachments" button at the bottom of the posting page. Just select the photo(s) ("Browse") and upload them. You have to limit the size to about 165 kb, as I recall.

Actually, the images need to be 800x600 or smaller and less than 400k - whichever is less. Diane, if you're not sure how to edit/post them, email them to me, and I'll take care of it for you (we're all eager to see them).

Also - Diane - how big of a stick are you going to take after your surveyor? :devil:

//sse
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
John M's wire cable

JOHN SEZ:......."Also, I don't see a wire cable with associated bolt connection at the mast base to the metal plate or mast step.....critical peice of gear if the mast were to let loose. The short wire cable (required on racing boats) attaches the mast base to the keel and will hopefully prevent the mast from holing the hull. The hole in the hull results from a wildly swingng mast in the cabin when the standing rigging lets loose....not a pretty sight and has occured more than a few times. As a result, it is prudent to attach a short, stout wire cable to a very secure point from the mast to a location near the mast base to prevent such a scenario.
Good luck!"

John, I am not sure what wire you are referring to..in the fist pic you can clearly see the deck tie down wire. But, it does sound as if you are talking about the very common deck tie down wire (often rod), which is attached as you say usually at the mast step and also to the mast collar or solid point very near the cut out in the deck. Sometimes it is attached to the back side of the mast maybe 2 feet below the cabin ceiling, and attached as described near the mast collar/cut out..

However, the purpose of this is not to keep the mast from going through the bottom of the boat-in fact, this is not something done on any boats I have ever seen. Rather these cables are installed to keep the DECK, or cabin top, from being pulled UP as a result of halyard loads. You will note that on boats with halyards led to winches on the side of the mast, these are generally not used so much, but on boats with halyards led aft, where you have turning blocks at the base of the mast, they are quite common.

If I misread you I apologize, but please explain further-I am not aware of any thing used to keep the mast from going through the bottom of a boat-except the grid or keep support system.
S
:)
 
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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Tie 'er up, tie 'er down...

What I have heard from my offshore racing buddies is that the (very short) stout cable attached to the mast base is just to keep it in the vicinity of the step after the dismasting and resulting wandering around of that mast base inside the cabin.
:(
The "tie rod" as some folks call it is the length of rigging wire that holds down the cabin top against lifting forces caused by the halyards that go through turning blocks at the cabintop. Ours is only a few feet long and is socketed into the side of the spar and includes a turnbuckle. Some other Olsons and Ericsons have a longer wire going to the aluminum mast step at the sole level.
I remember, vaguely, that Bob Perry popularized the phrase "tie rod", when he incorporated it in some of his designs in the 70's.
Some other builders use a cabintop collar that is pinned right through the spar to accomplish the same thing, FWIW.

Loren in PDX
Olson 34 #8
 

hodo

Member III
mast tie down

If you are going to participate in an offshore race such as VIC MAUI, you are REQUIRED to have a device to secure the mast to the step. We had to do this to meet the reg.s and then we were inspected to make sure it was adequate.we installed a piece of aluminum Angle, bolted to the existing fasteners, and then into the base of the mast. Harold :devil:
 

Roger

Member II
Some possible insight on the E-35-3 mast beam. A large block of wood was installed in the center portion of the beam. The wood itself was capable of handling the compression load of the mast; however, there were occasionally voids between the top of the wood and the underside of the beam and/or between the bottom of the wood and the hull. The beam itself wasn't capable of carrying the compressive loads and would collapse until the void disappeared. Of course, rotting of the wood block over time could have the same effect.

A design upgrade, implemented sometime in the mid 80's, was to add several layers of unidirectional glass fore-and-aft to the center of the beam to make it strong enough to support the mast without the wood, although the wood was still installed as a backup. This may be the best repair for beams that have collapsed. For those who might want to take preventative measures, the side plates as described about sound like a good solution.
-Roger
 

Sean Engle

Your Friendly Administrator
Administrator
Founder
Update, please....

Hey Diane -

Whatever happened about this? Did the yard do a decent job? Do you have some images you could share, etc?

Thanks,
//sse
 
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