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E35 or E35-3 Grid/Beam Cracking?

Sean Engle

Your Friendly Administrator
Administrator
Founder
Here's something interesting: I just got this email from an owner - who asked about an apparent warranty issue with (what appears to be) the grid cracking beneath the mast. Their email:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Hoey [---------------------]
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 9:00 AM
To: ssengle@worldnet.att.net
Cc: ------------------
Subject: Ericson 35 Mark III


Just wanted to write to see if anyone has done the beam fix below the mast on this boat. What boat yard was used?

http://support.pacificseacraft.com/Ericson/E35Miscellaneous.pdf
(see page 4)

We recently bought the boat without knowing the structural problem.

Does anyone have information on this?

Thanks,

--

The pdf referenced above (out on PSC's servers) has also been downloaded to EY.o's server - and can be obtained by clicking HERE.

Have any of you heard of this (my first)? What's been done about it?

//sse
 

Sean Engle

Your Friendly Administrator
Administrator
Founder
Update...

An update on this issue...

From: -------
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 12:13 PM
To: ssengle@worldnet.att.net
Subject: RE: E35-3 Grid Cracking


I talked to Thomas at Windward Yachts, Marina del Rey CA.
He feels condition of the beam is common for boats of this age.
Water gets underneath step and deteriorates wood or metal.
They fix this problem with composites.
I will be taking the boat up there soon and will let you know what he thinks after he sees it.
Thanks,
---
 

Sean Engle

Your Friendly Administrator
Administrator
Founder
Photos of Grid Cracks

The owner of this E35-3 sent me photos today. The boat is being moved to a yard and have the grid worked on. We're hoping to create a project page from this...

//sse
 

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Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
That's a very poor design. You have the entire compressive force of the mast resting on a stringer that appears to be about 4 inches wide (the supporting plate is probably too flexible to spread the load to the adjoining stringers). As you can see from the attached photo of the mast support from my 32-3 the designer spread the load over a much broader area (the fiberglass is about an inch thick). I cannot believe the same engineer designed both TFG's.
 

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Steve

Member III
Yikes

I hope this fellow shares his coming experiences, as this could be one of many. As a 35-3 owner, it struck me "hard" that the PO didn't take care of the boat based on the conditions in the photos above. Prehaps the spar was dropped on to the grid or other hard (storm) experience. Looks like water has inhabited the cabin at one time? Prehaps the current owner will bring this one back to bristol condition respectful of this great boat.
 

jmoses

Member III
Poor mast step

As Geoff mentions,

That's just a poor mast base/step design. The mast has cracked the athwartship grid which is only supporting the aft most 4 to 5" of the mast. It looks like the crack is almost directly under the aft portion of the mast where there is tremendous compression forces at work...especially if the mast was tweaked at some point with the standing rigging.

It is no surprise it cracked as almost every mast is trying to poke its way through the bottom of a boat. Here the athwartship frame/grid is supporting less than 50% of the massive compression load. In this case it would eventualy succeed in poking through the bottom if not repaired and beefed up.

Also, I don't see a wire cable with associated bolt connection at the mast base to the metal plate or mast step.....critical peice of gear if the mast were to let loose. The short wire cable (required on racing boats) attaches the mast base to the keel and will hopefully prevent the mast from holing the hull. The hole in the hull results from a wildly swingng mast in the cabin when the standing rigging lets loose....not a pretty sight and has occured more than a few times. As a result, it is prudent to attach a short, stout wire cable to a very secure point from the mast to a location near the mast base to prevent such a scenario.

Good luck!


John M..
 

lbertran

Member III
Is It Really a Poor Design?

I'll immediately state my utter ignorance in design and engineering, but if this were really an obviously flawed design, wouldn't this be happenning to many if not most E35-3's out there? Are there many other examples of this sort of damage? I ask because I'm the happy owner of a E35-3 and this does concern me. Thanks.

Laura Bertran
Footloose, 1985 E35-3
Annapolis
 
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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
mast support notes

My uneducated take on it is that the basic engineering is quite sound -- and very widely applied in the building of FRP boats.
I have a similar "floor" under the mast base in my Olson. Mine is not part of a TAFG, but rather a "hat" section formed over a foam core. This is true of all the floor ribs accross the bottom of our boat. The "brims" of the "hats" seem to come together to provide the needed cross section thickness for the keel bolts. The one under the spar is wider than any of the others. It has, OTOH, deflected down about 1/8 inch since 1988, but seems stable.
A surveyor tells me that this deflection is normal for this type of construction, and, if I keep the boat enough decades, I may have to reinforce that section...
:rolleyes:

Loren in PDX
Olson 34 #8
 

Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
lbertran said:
I'll immediately state my utter ignorance in design and engineering, but if this were really an obviously flawed design, wouldn't this be happenning to many if not most E35-3's out there? Are there many other examples of this sort of damage? I ask because I'm the happy owner of a E35-3 and this does concern me. Thanks.


The engineering drawings at the beginning of this post and which propose a repair procedure are dated 3/82, so I would assume that it is only the early models that have a problem. Does the construction of the hull under your mast resemble that in the photos?
 

lbertran

Member III
Looks Pretty Similar to Mine

Geoff-
I'm not sure it's exactly the same. I'll go to the boat and check this evening. Thanks.

Laura
 

Diane&Chuck

Junior Member
Ericson 35 mark III mast step prob

Chuck and I sent the pictures of the cracked gel coat (beam?) under the mast. Bow in mast step is about 1/2 inch!
I am hoping to get some pictures of the fix as it progresses.
Teak and holly looks like it had some water damage at one time.
We thought it might be from the shower overflowing.
Chuck fixed that bilge pump shortly after we got the boat in July.
We did have a fluky air day, where we had no wind and then over 20+ knots.
Not what I enjoy, especially with guests aboard.
Rather unusual for Southern California. It was some crazy air from a hurricane that broke up. The strong wind was from down drafts.
That is when I notice the mast paint bubbled at the base.
Perhaps the mast step got worse then.
We really don't know if it was already like that. The damage looks old to some people looking at it.
Also we had the rigging tooned right after the purchase, and that may have contributed to the damage since it became tighter.
The sole is weak and giving way around the galley.
Not sure what caused that.
Plan to fix that too.
Otherwise boat is in good shape.
The previous owner passed away and his wife doesn't know much.
Will keep in touch.
Thanks,
Diane
 

Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
I was wondering if the boat had been surveyed before you bought it.

Spongy cabin soles seem to be endemic with Ericsons. On my boat, the mast doesn't go through the sole so the inevitable water coming down the mast runs all over the sole. I fixed mine by drilling holes and pouring in Git Rot (then I replaced the whole sole as you can see from the picture above).

Have fun.
 
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Diane&Chuck

Junior Member
Survey

Yes the boat was surveyed.
I will have to ask Chuck where the survey is to review.
Thanks for bringing that up.
Diane
 

Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
When I got my boat I was stupider than I am today and 1) hired a surveyor recommended by the broker; and 2) accepted his assurances when I asked him if I should worry about the brown stain coming out of the hull/keel joint. The cost of rebedding the keel was not enough to justify going after the surveyor, but it might be something you would want to consider.
 

Diane&Chuck

Junior Member
Survey

I know Chuck called the old guy a few weeks ago.
That didn't go well.
I'm not up on the details.....
All I know is the guy's language is extremely "salty"......
Will go over the paperwork/survey with Chuck.
Perhaps it will be worth looking into.
Thanks,
Diane
 

Sean Engle

Your Friendly Administrator
Administrator
Founder
My cabin sole squeaked near the galley as well - and it had been stiffened up by the PO with some underlayment. The staining is pretty common - with all the water that comes down the mast (you have to route it through your boat to the bilge and keep the weep holes clear) - but the cracks are new to me...

I would think you would want to have some drawings pulled together of what is being/will be done on the grid. I would wonder how deep those cracks are - and how (structurally speaking) the 'fix' is going to address them. Of course, as mentioned above, is how the entire 'fix' will address the structural support design of the boat (status quo - or improvement).

//sse
 

lbertran

Member III
Mast Base In My 35-3

I looked at my boat last night and found that while it's sound and looks good, it's constructed just the same as the damaged boat. Mine is a 1985 and appears to have no cracking of the grid under the mast plate. The mast plate does not appeat distorted in any way. It would not seem that Ericson changed anything in the boats built after they issued the mast base repair instructions in 1982.

We like to sail hard and regularly use our backstay adjuster. The PO raced the boat so I know he put her through her paces. I'll keep an eye on this area but, so far, no sign of problems.

Laura Bertran
Footloose, 1985 E35-3
Annapolis
 

Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
It occured to me (and I am not an engineer, nor do I play one on TV) is that one possible way to beef up the system is to have a shop weld two vertical components to the mast plate to go on either side of the stringer (through bolted) with angle braces in the newly formed right angles on either side. That would greatly stiffen the plate under the mast and transfer the load across three stringers.
 

Sean Engle

Your Friendly Administrator
Administrator
Founder
Geoff Johnson said:
It occured to me (and I am not an engineer, nor do I play one on TV) is that one possible way to beef up the system is to have a shop weld two vertical components to the mast plate to go on either side of the stringer (through bolted) with angle braces in the newly formed right angles on either side. That would greatly stiffen the plate under the mast and transfer the load across three stringers.

Can you sketch out your idea?

//sse
 

Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
Sure, it's basically a saddle that sits on the stringer and is meant to carry part of the load to the two adjoining stringers (like a cantilever truss, only in tension, not in compression as with a bridge). From the photos it seems like it can be retrofitted without modifying the fiberglass. It would be much stronger and probably cheaper to fabricate if it were made out of steel (galvanized like the grids in X-Yachts), but you would have to isolate the aluminum mast somehow.

The Ericson repair shown at the beginning of this thread involves bolting side plates on either side of the middle stringer extending them all the way to the bottom of the bilge, thus tranferring the load from the stringer to the keel. That would give you point loading on a very small area of the boat. However, you could combine that concept with mine by extending the side plates shown in my sketch all the way to the bilge.
 

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