Eeek! We got our new PHRF rating

So I measured and measured and measured, got all the stupid stuff filled out and got a new PHRF rating for our 38-200. With a 150% Roller Furling Jib, a Wing Keel, and a Folding Prop... Our rating came back as a 114. Holy crud!

Any body else have a 38-200 phrf rating in other parts of the country to compare?
Good thing we only do distance races, and then only for the fun of it!
I can see the sailing gods now: "We'd like to take a moment to welcome the newest member of PHRF A... (maniacal laughter)"
Chris

Thats crazy Chris. My research online had me thinking that 114 was the BASE rating for the deep draft version. I was then thinking I would add 6 seconds for RF and maybe 12 for my fixed prop. You should be getting a break for the wing for sure.

Ted Reshetiloff
89' E 38-200

PHRF ratings for the E-38

I was going to post something today on this too... but a slightly different take so I'll combine the two. I have a 381 and rate 117. Makes sense and seems fair from what I have seen this year in the BC's (and the rating has been around for a long time). I don't know about 6 seconds for a furler... that seems a bit generous (hell- for 6 seconds/mile, I'd put a second one on!). As I understand it, the PHRF rating may be a base but you don't get additional time if you slow your boat down (like with a RF or non-folding prop). You can be penalized if you use a larger sail than the spec, but not the other way around. If I am wrong, please let me know- I want some time for having my dink OB on the stern pulpit! Same as if you have an old blown out main- I don't get time for my potatoe-sack main, the same as the E-35 I sail against does not get ding'ed for having a spray on bottom and new mylar sails. The joys of PHRF!!!

On that note, does anyone know the spec size for an asso kite on a 38-200? There is at least one racing in my fleet with a ginormous AS kite that goes from the top of the mast to the forepeak and then is below the deck in the foot and clew(like a big 'ole deck-sweeper jib, bit it's a kite). I thought it was like 49.94' but theirs must be bigger than that if their I=50'.

Any ideas?

PHRF: classic love-hate relationship...

I agree with Ted. A bit of research online shows a 123 base rating for a shoal draft version E-38 in Long Island Sound area (and a 117 for my Olson 34). Maybe the rater did not really read your form?

What with a 150% genny and a folding prop, you seem to be "normal competition equipped" otherwise.
The shoal draft keel, OTOH, should definately change the boat's rating upwards -- I have seen those keel options compromise a boats windward ability in light air... and then again, somewhat, in heavy air...

However, having blathered on about that, if I had the money to easily afford to change my standard 6' draft fin to a 5' fin-and-bulb, I would do it just to open up our local cruising grounds a bit.

And then there is PLAN B.
After all, what with other E-38's around and also a lot of other very similar-speed-potential boats from the same design era, you could just form a five boat (minimum) Level Racing Fleet and enter all events as a group. Here in PDX we have a whole yacht club dedicated to this for all their racing -- everything they put on is OD or Level.
I admit that it involves some on-going phone calls and organizing on your part, but the reward is WYSIWYG racing! After all, for short course buoy racing, it is easy and quite "fair" to put together a class of similar-design boats that fall within a rating range of about 10 seconds a mile... We been doin' it this way around here for over two decades. Best competition I ever had (after racing OD for 5 years, which I call the "gold standard") was level racing when I got my N-26 and had no sisterships to race. I was actually slightly disadvantaged in our group, by raw PHRF data, but still won a lot anyway. And just like racing OD, when you're first, you win!

Best of luck to you,

Loren in PDX

Well, here on the Ches Bay-

Well, I can only speak for PHRF on the Chesapeake Bay, but you get a rating credit for things like the prop, the roller furler and having a smaller LP on your genoa like a 135 or a 100 vs. a 155. You get clubbed for having things like the wing keel vs. shoal keel and so on. It's assumed that you have maximized your other stuff to go fast (like stripping weight, having all new racing sails, and having a sprayed on 1200 grit sanded VC Offshore bottom) in order to sail to your rating.
Chris

Thinking I might just have to spend the sail budget on a Melges 24 or a Tripp 26 or something

Yo, Geoff,
You should always be able to get the number changed (up or down...) for anything that changes the basic "speed potential" of your particular hull and sailplan. Sail area: yes; method of storing the sail (bagging it or rolling it up on the forestay): no.
Keel shape or draft change: yes. Whether it is coated with teflon or Treadmaster: no.
Aux. propulsion drag: yes (Outboard tilted up vs. fixed vs. folder/feather) .

You could also wax the hull... and have the crew sail naked, and require that they get waxed like swimmers...
Inflate the mast with helium...
Carbon fiber spinn pole and winch handles, and aluminum anchor (oops, those are real).

Loren

Or Plan C: restore and race a Cal 20 one-design, like over 20 owners have done in our area for the last five years...Heck, the whole Cal 20 costs less than one new trick mainsail for your big boat...
:eek:

Below was copied from www.phrfne.org the New England PHRF site.

Base:

ERICSON 38 114
ERICSON 38 SD 120
ERICSON 38 WK 123


21 MAy 2005

The following are adjustments that PHRF-NE normally makes to a base boat for non standard equipment.

The base boat is assumed to in as-built configuration with a 155% genoa (unless only a non-overlapping sail can be carried), a spinnaker/whisker pole length equal to J, a spinnaker width equal to 1.8 times J, a spinnaker height equal to .95 times the square root of I squared plus J squared, and either a folding or feathering propeller on an exposed shaft, a two bladed solid propeller in an aperture, or an outboard motor. IMS sail definitions apply, particularly with respect to mainsail girths for other than One Design boats. Sprit boats will be handicapped in the configuration shown on the application. If the boat differs from the base boat, the following adjustments apply:
AUXILLIARY POWER

Two bladed solid propeller on an exposed shaft +6 sec/mile
Three bladed solid propeller on an exposed shaft +9
Three bladed solid propeller in an aperture +3
Two bladed feathering propeller in an aperture -3
Three bladed feathering propeller in an aperture 0
Outboard fixed in well with two bladed solid propeller +6
Inboard with exposed shaft in place of outboard +3 to +9

RECREATIONAL ADJUSTMENT

Limited inventory, above deck jib roller furling, polyester, pentex, or mylar only in working sails, no exotic sail materials such as kevlar, spectra, technora, etc..
A maximum of:
One nylon spinnaker
One jib with Lp > 110%
One jib with Lp =< 110%
a
+6
Working roller furling with sail attached to swivel and above deck drum are required. If the drum is below deck, the credit will be halved. Boats that come with built in roller furling, as in many sport boats, are not eligible for this credit. In cases where the intent of this adjustment is not honored, the credit will be denied. The credit may also be reduced on performance boats to 3 seconds per mile. Special racing roller furling sails are not allowed. As a rule of thumb, the foot skirt should not exceed 3 percent of the foot length in depth. If the boat is cutter rigged, the staysail must also be roller furling and be capable of being used upwind.

This is another adjustment I found interesting as I have a poleless kite now.


If only spinnaker on boat and flown from bow without pole or sprit
This credit is lost if the spinnaker is used with a pole +9

Looks like I should end up:

114 Base
+ 6 Fixed 2 blade prop
+6 Roller Furler
+9 Poleless Kite

135 Total...

117 for my E38 200

Chris, I have a PHRF certificate for Lake Ontario, came out at 117, with, like you - wing keel, folding prop and asymmetric spin. I dont think they worked very hard on it though. And I definitely cant sail to it, not until I buy a new mainsail, anyway. But like you, I only do distance races and only for fun. But not much hope of class racing as mine is the only E38 200 on Lake Ontario that I have seen.
Cheers, Roger Ware, Kingston, ON

We have a 32-2 with a 180 rating. We were sailing with a 165 headsail, but if asked under oath we would swear it was a 155 which is the max rating. We were interested in the ratings because we added a kevlar #1 and an adjustable backstay and we were curious as to whether that would change our rating. Those additions don't.
We're hoping for a local adjustment because of the weight/length ratio and the light airs traditionally found in Santa Monica Bay. I'm also hoping we can get an adjustment because I have a partner who weighs on the heavy side of 250 (I'm being generous because he might read this). I'm not optimistic on that issue.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E32-2 Hull #134

Big crew...

That dude is affectionately called "Two Tenths" in conversations I've heard. Anyone that sits on the rail and the boatspeed goes up 0.2 knts would qualify
Just a fun joke- I lost 30 lbs this spring and still have another 25-30 to go
Chris

Who ordered a 165% for the boat? GOod grief, better hope it doesn't blow when it's up!

Believe me Chris,

Down here, in the summer time, they put up small craft advisories if it hits 15k. 10-12 is a good afternoon breeze. We have all the old sails (from all appearances, the majority of our headsails are original equipment i.e 35 years old) We have two sail bags with dacron hank-ons marked on the outside "165". We have one marked "180" which wraps almost back to the traveller. When we added a luff foil to the headstay and changed to #5 foil tape instead of hanks, we altered our working jib to remove the hanks, add the tape, and it reduced the width of the sail by about 4 inches. We did the same to one of the 165's which trimmed down its size, and then added the Ullman kevlar 155 to the quiver.

The prior owner was also inclined to add spinnakers when he saw a good deal. After getting the final batch of sails from him this past weekend, we now have a 180 drifter, a blooper, and 4 symmetricals of varying sizes.

So far, probably the best thing we added to the boat was the Navtec hydraulic backstay tensioner. We bought a used one with a 10" throw for $700, which included an overhaul/rebuild of the cylinder and pump and modification of the backstay to make it fit. Tuesday night, we loosened the rear shrouds about 4 turns to accommodate a bit more mast movement. We we rounded the windward mark, we let off the tension, threw the mast forward and filled out the genny (racing mariner class). The improvement in performance was amazing. Boats that had consistently walked away from us downwind in previous months we were now matching or beating. It was the most amazing thing.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason E32-2 Hull #134

Bloopers...

We were out practicing a couple of weeks ago to tune up for our big mid-bay regatta and saw a dude with a blooper up. Nobody flies em here anymore. Do they still use them out west?

It was a really cool sight. I've always thought they were a neat sail... it's just there aren't many around anymore.
Chris

Rating Wars

Chris,

You got hosed to be sure. As has been shown, the base rating varies between 114-117-assuming deep keel, 155's, etc. Note that SOME local PHRF areas DO give credit for smaller LP genoas and spinnakers and some other things, but most do not-that will depend on your local board. New sails, BS adjusters, etc. are not usually penalized. In this configuration, the 38's easily sail to the rating-BUT must be sailed correctly-like any other boat.

Don't expect, for example, to sail to the rating without everyone on the rail if it is breezy-or if it is light, with everyone in the cockpit, or with a full load of cruising gear aboard. No boat will do this. Someone said something about .2 knots by putting a big guy on the rail-this is true (or nearly true). All boats must be sailed on their lines (both fore and aft and in terms of heel) if they expect to meet their potential. The other very obvious thing is bottom condition-don't expect to be compettitive without a well prepared bottom.

Great comments by Windjunkee also. BTW- the old 32-2's, when originally raced, were racing under the old CCA or the early IOR, and in SOCAL back in those days it was quite common to see 165's as the #1 genoa-the 150 was #2!! Those handicap formulas did not hammer the 165's the way PHRF does, and so folks went with the big Genny's. Most old 32's and 35's that were raced when new had these sails..

As for Bloopers, ARRGGHHHH!! STAY AWAY!! They are the devil's creations!!! Horrible to sail with because they are so cantankerous to trim, the only real benefits are had when sailing very, very deep (which we now know is not usually fast anyway). The tend to "push" the boat to leeward, so that although the speed increase was either nothing or maybe .25 knots, the boat was "dragged" to leeward-thus improving VNG downwind-but only sllightly, and almost never worth the hassle, expense, and loss of maneuverability! They are hard to trim because they tend to be caught behind the main and/or get bad air off the spinnaker-so thay had to be flown WAY out-halyard out, tackline out.... One of my happiest days in offshore sailing was when boat design came around to where there was little advantage in sailing so deep (death of IOR), and obviated the need for these spawn of satan!! Not that I have an opinion.....

Back to the 38 ratings-the biggest problem is the winged keel-these things are just plain slower because of all the extra area, and should net you a good credit under PHRF-you need to address this with the data already provided in this thread.

As for A-sails sizes-I built Roger's A-sail-wasn't that a "racing A-sail"? The max size for PHRF without penalty would be a girth and foot not to exceed 1.8 X J (although they are often slightly under for optimal shape), and
here are the MAX sizes for the 38 std. rig (50 X 16.25): SL: 52.59; SLE: 46.8;
SMG: 29.25;SF (AKA SFA):29.25. In reality, the SMG on an A-sail will be a bit smaller, but these are the defined limits.

Since we are doing this, for a conventional spinnaker, the limits are still 1.8 X J for SMG and SF (29.25), and the luffs cannot exceed the I measurement, or 50 feet (max. allowable luff sometimes varies by up to 5%-smaller depending on the PHRF region).

Hope this helps!
Cheers

Seth - interesting comments about the 38 wing keel, which is certainly an elaborate and high wetted surface creation. I have the original brochure on this keel, and I recall the claim that it would be "at least as fast as the fin keel, including upwind" or words to that effect. I am curious as to whether that has borne out in practise, or not, as I suspect.

Seth, you did build my A-sail and a racing A-sail it was meant to be. I love it, although I have very little or nothing to compare it with as far as racing potential. I had it up in 15+knts last year and the boat hit 10knts of boat speed. I believe that the luff measurement is 49'6" or something pretty close to it, I recall we had a lively debate about how big we could make it. I could try to look it up if anyone is interested, but I am sure Seth could too.

If I can figure out how, I will post a photo of my 38 200 A sail.
Cheers, Roger, Kingston, ON

Hey Seth...
I was just whining about my rating. We'll do what we can to make the boat as fast as possible as a performance cruiser-- then we'll thumb our noses as people pass us eating cold sandwiches and we've got home made hot dinners straight from the oven. And again when we get in at daybreak and grab a slip and turn on the AC and sleep in comfort.
I will be doing some follow up with the new main stuff, and will also be contacting all the big lofts about a deeper kite than that flasher for some serious down the bay runs.
We love our boat- and if we really get the bug to race our own boat competitively, we'll buy a "potato chip boat" (we have 3 olson 29's and 2 Antrim 27's in the club) and go serious racing! Until that time, we'll sail to the best of our ability in the races we do and have a good time. You might even see the viking helmets come out as we cross!
Chris

Yo, Roger!

Great to hear from you, Roger!

How do I say this politely? Something along the lines of "....the best laid plans of mice and men"....

After the Australian winged keel 12 Meter-those things were all the rage. As a shoal draft compromise they were decent, because a short keel without wings would be worse upwind in any good amount of breeze. But in lighter air and downwind, when compared to a deep keep, ouch. The brochure, in my opinion, was part marketing and part wishful thinking. They fall somewhere in between a normal "deep" keel and a short stubby shoal keel-which, if you think about it, is exactly what one would expect, and all one could realistically hope for. On the other hand, you don't see many of them anymore. That ship has sailed.

All of my notes on your sail are still at the loft, but IIRC, we did have some long talks about this, and I seem to recall you wanted an AP shape-rather than a dedicated runner-this would reduce the luff length a bit. I should have been clearer on those sizes, also. For conventional kites, unless they are dedicated reachers, they are typically max. size. A-sails are usually slightly less for several reasons-if you plan on using a spinnaker pole, which most racers do, a max luff sail will simply be too long-you could never get the pole low enough. The formula on A-sails-which can be looked up on either the Great Lakes PHRF, New England PHRF, or SOCAL PHRF. For example, SOCAL's rule says: For boats designed to use conventional spinnakers with a standard pole, the A-sail's " SL(U) shall not exceed 1.03 times the square root of (Ic squared + Jc squared), BUT the luff MUST be at least 5% longer than the leech (and this varies from region to region a bit), whereas for conventional kites it is simply anywhere from (.95 x I) to (1 X I). The numbers I got for the 38 previously today were taken off a sailmakers pricing program, which takes the I and J and computes max legal dimensions. When the sail is actually designed, these will move around a bit depending on what the sail is intended for (AP, runner, reacher, etc.). Hope that helps.
S

Totally cool

Chris-I'm with you-my comments on sailing were more directed to the statement someone made about the boat not sailing to it's rating..that was all.. You are doing the absolute right thing: Enjoying your boat!!
Keep it up!

Cheers,
S

Seth, here is your creation, the first time up as I recall, August 2004, about 6knots of wind. Comments? Cheers, Roger

Very nice

If I do say so myself! Looks like the pole height is good at the tack, but should be lower at the mast-to shove the tack farther forward out on front of the boat (for max.projection).

What we have found with this particular design (same design I won the Mac Race (on a Ben. 3.7) last year, and the Ensenada Race the year before (on a Columbia 52) is that is has HUGE dynamic range. In lighter air (say under 5) when close reaching, set it on a tack line instead of the pole. If sailing very close, keep the tack eased enough so that the entire luff breaks evenly (as in a genoa, you will point higher with more "sag")-this will also make it fuller.

Many people make the mistake when close reaching of keeping the luff very tight. This only forces the draft too far forward and makes the entry super- critical. If you are close reaching and find it hard to trim, ease the tack line until it is easy to trim. Once the wind gets to the beam, you will start to do better using the pole. Again, set the height so that the luff breaks evenly-but try and keep the inboard end set so the pole is as close to perpendicular as possible to the mast.

As you sail deeper, keep squaring the pole back. You will find the pole needs to be higher the deeper you sail in order to keep the luff break correct-but never as high as you would with a conventional kite. Remember with sym. kites you need the clews about level/even. A-sails, because the luff is longer than the leech, will never want this.

You can sail just as deep with this sail as you can with a sym. kite-just keep squaring "normally".

We found these sails could reach much closer than a sym. (obviously), yet run just as deep, and always faster. It seemed like these sails could replace 2 and maybe 3 sym kites-ie. 1/2, 3/4 for sure, and mostly the 1.5.

In both of those distance races, even though we carried a full compliment of sym. kites, we found the A-sail faster in all conditions and ended up using it exclusively over the others!

I expect this would be true for any A-sail-provided it is full or nearly full sized and designed as an AP sail. If you have an A-sail shaped more for reaching, then it may not run as well as an AP sym., but compared shape apples to shape apples the A-sails were better.

Nice job!

S