Cruising Chutes (continued from other thread)

Figured we better get this it's own thread so everyone doesn't have to pick through all this to get to get to the track discussion.

Thanks Seth. We've actually been strategizing about making this sail most effective for the small amount of racing we do with the boat, but mostly it will just come with familiarity on the water. Depending on how I'm able to rig the tack line (that's pretty much exactly how I was planning to run it, Seth) for Friday night, we may end up using the pole for the tack anyway in the immediate short term depending on what I can hook a turning block to at the bow. I went back throught the cruising CD I have from North U and checked what they had to say and they had some interesting ideas and videos. They showed one boat doing inside gybes with a sail like this (I'd only do this in way light winds, if at all). They also suggested that running with one of these will get better shape without the tack ring while the higher you reach, the more one would help. The tack will project to windward (just like we do on the sprit boat) when you ease the tack and float it out if it is not held to the forestay.

The only questions I have right now (until I get some time at the sheet on it) are about its cut and the subsequent trim. I'm assuming there is enough shoulder in the sail to have the same characteristics of ease to a curl and trim for best performance? Any other tips for rigging it?
Also, any thoughts on rigging the whisker pole to full extension past the bow pulpit and running almost like a bowsprit? Obviously couldn't do this racing without getting a ratings hit, but might be a fun thing to try for cruising?

Thanks all... and Seth, I'm sure I'll have more thoughts and questions after this weekend.
Chris

Kite trim

Unless the sail has a problem, you trim it just like any kite-keep a small curl in the luff...If it collapses from the luff, trim in, if it collapases from the leech, ease it out-and..when in doubt, ease it out-always!!!

Of course, without seeing the sail in question, I can't speak to how much of an AP shape it has, but you should be able to use the pole to good advantage.

Regarding gybing, I like the "inside" gybe you describe for light air, and for bigger breezes, the coolest thing is the "outside" gybe-where you run the sheets outside (instead of between the headstay and the luff) and when you gybe, bear off and give a BIG ease so the clew is almost pointed downwind, then just haul on the new sheet! NO loading up or rounding up-easy as can be (compared to the inside gybe or a conventional pole-gybe). With all spinnaker gybes, the success or failure depends on the driver-timing the trun to match the sails' rotation. On the inside style, bear off steadily, easing the sail until it goes slack. Then speed up the turn until the stern is through the wind and you are NO HIGHER than a broad reach on the other side. At the point the sail goes slack, you bow person grabs the new sheet while standing near the 1st stanchion, and WAILS on it-until the clew is at or near the shrouds and the trimmers have the load. Then the trimmers must be careful not to have overtrimmed, or if they have, to ease it back out in a hurry-if they don't and the breeze is up, you will round up. On the outside version-similar steering..slow until the sail is pointing downwind, then a quick speeding of the turn until the sail is on the other side, and then get coordinated with the trimmers and sailing angle..No bow person needed!

On the topic of the whisker pole-be careful-they are not built to take these kinds of loads. Also, I think it was you who mentioned what a beast the factory spin pole is....Do you and your crew a huge favor..Get a Carbon Pole!!! They are awesome-light and very strong..

Finally, on the Tacker issue: I never use 'em. North is 100% right than when you sail deeper angles you WANT the tack to float away from the headstay, and "rotate" the sail as much in front of the boat as possible. When sailing closer, I find that by tightening up the tackline, the sail flies just fine-so what if the tack is a few feet to leeward? You have enough luff tension anyway... This is very much up to the individual, and lots of sailors like them-I just don't see a big advantage compared to the hassle of rigging and unrigging them--Sorry ATN!!

Fair winds,
S

One other quick question on this...

Hey Seth,
Thanks for all the good advice. One more question we have is finding a spot on the bow for the tack. I got a new turning block to put up there, but there isn't much up there to hook it to. We want to keep this thing in front of the furling barrel right? There are two tack hooks under the barrel that we could possibly use, but we're worried about the tack fouling on the barrel (or will it pull to leeward enough?) and then there's the question of how to keep a turning block on a tack hook without it coming off the open end?
We're thinking we might pull the anchor (our foredeck guy will have a canary if he sees that CQR up there during the race anyway :eek: ) and run the tack through the anchor roller. this would not be a permanent solution, but we thought it might work for this weekend.
Thoughts?
Chris

No worries

Make your bow person (and me) happy by getting the weight off the bow, put a D shackle through one of the holes on the roller, and hang the tackline block on it! At least for the weekend..

For a more permanant fix, personally I would take some very thin kevlar or spectra (leechline spectra is perfect for this) line and take 2 wraps through the toggle on the headstay turnbuckle. Just do a nice job of taping over the square knot (Or whatever you like to use to join the ends), and you will have a nice, flexible loop (maybe 4-6" accross) on which to hang a block for the A-sail tackline. When not using the block, you just have a very lightweight small loop at the base of the headstay-completely troublefree. You could also find a shackle to fit there, but this will bind and put strain on the toggle when loaded up, so I like the spectra loop solution.

Yes, the block should fly to leeward of the fuurling drum under any load at all!

Hope this answers your "last question"!!

Cheers,

S

jibing asso and tack lines

I have been playing with my new asso and it's config as well. For the tackline, I literally just took the foreguy from the pole and ran it through/under the anchor roller to the tack of the sail. Works fine and it is easy to adjust from the cockpit. My sail (which is not Ericson standard- it is off a Hunter 38) looks best though when run off the pole and the pole is held off the headstay 4-6". Prob is if I have to rig to pole I may as well rig the symmetrical kite.

The trick on the jibes with the 38 and the asso sail is at the max depth of your turn have the bowman take the lazy sheet at the headstay and RUN- DONT WALK aft with it toward the cockpit. Works a treat as he can get it over there faster than the trimmer can. What I think makes it work is that when it gets to the new side, the trimmer is ready for it as he is not tired from pulling and if there is a snag he can see where it is mid-process; if he was yarding away at the sheet he has a tendency to look down at it and not the sail.

Oh yeah- Seth, I'm the one who called the factory pole a beast. You have any idea what a 4"X15' carbon pole costs or what the wall thickness would be to be comparable? I promised myself I would not spend a lot of money on the E38 to race (I race a 5o5 and a J120) but I may be able to talk meyself into it!

Asym on our race...

Well, we survived...

The sail worked great, we had a nice broad reach down the bay Friday night, then doused a little early and turned up into the river. We kept up boat for boat with several of the boats that race in our club on a weekly basis (several of them were obviously going to correct over us, but we were competitive with some others), after a turn into the second river and closing on the finish the wind lightened and the river narrowed. Oh how painful to tack about 20 times and take 3.5 hours to go a little more than a mile.
But the sail worked great, I did the loop on the bow- I think I'm going to try a bail on the roller next time and see how that works. Our roller can and our bow pulpit got in the way of the tack line.
But great fun was had by all- nothing broke and the beer was cold at the 0400 finish.
Thanks to all for the great advice and thoughts.
Chris.

PS> we were one of two Ericsons in the club to participate, the second was a 34 that belongs to some friends of ours.

Chris what was the race? I was cruising further up the bay from you this weekend. Next to no breeze saturday but yesterday was a blast. Did not get a chance to fly my kite as I jsut had my pregnant wife and 2 year old for crew. Need to get a sock for that guy.

Hi Ted,
It was the Southern Maryland Sailing Association (SMSA) Vice Commodore's Cup Race. It started at 1830 on Friday in Solomons and finished (for us at least) at Horseshoe Bend off St. Mary's City at 0333 on Saturday. What a great anchorage if you're ever down that way!
Chris

That is a nice area. I sold my columbia 28 to a guy in Piney Point and we motored it down from Annapolis a few weeks ago. While we are talking about cruising kites any opinion on snuffers? The ATN version seems pretty nice but at $10/ft thats about 500 bucks. How about the Chute Scoop? Chute Scoop seems to be about 1/2 the price. I sail shorthanded and with my wife pregnant with number 2 looks like I will be basically sailing solo. She'll be on board but so will both kids. I currently have a 150% genny on the furler but find that I get over powered pretty quicky. Seems once the breeze gets over about 8 knots I need to start rolling some of that guy up. Fortunately we have had pretty decent breeze this summer on the bay. I also have a 100% jib that came with the boat that I have not used yet. I would like to swap out the 150 with the 100 and be able to use the assym cruising chute when the breeze is light to go up hill. Looking at it's cut I can probably carry it up to about 45-50 apparent in light air. (5kts) When its that light I often end up sailing that low anyway. But the rub is I need to be able to single hand the boat with the kite. A snuffer of some sort would seem to be the way to go, question is whose snuffer? I don't like the idea of paying 500 for this thing but on the other hand I want to be able to depend on it esp. in big breeze.

Ours is a UK that came with the chute

Hey Ted,
Ours is the UK "Stasher" that came with the sail. One of the things I have noticed about this sock is that it compresses into a much smaller size when up at the top of the mast. I have used another style (I think it was a "chute scoop" but couldn't say for sure) that doesn't compress as much and really affects sail shape and makes it harder to trim and get good shape. I'm not advocating for any company, just thinking you might want to check out how much of each ends up showing.
Best,
Chris

PS. We're applying for our Valid PHRF certificate this week, and thus hoping to do either this fall's Annapolis-Oxford race, or maybe in the spring if it doesn't work out for the fall. Would you be interested in crewing? Having another crew member that is familiar with the boat would be great.

I should take a look at UK then. I'm geussing you are pretty happy with the stasher? Whats the date on the oxford race? My wife is due August 11 so depends on how things go.

socks and stashers

Just a personal opinion, but I think the ATN is the cadillac of these products. The hoop is smooth, and large, which means smoother dowses, and after going through trying to save money by making them ourselves, when I was at Doyle and Quantum it was decided that since we felt our sails were of the highest quality, so should the sock be, and thus I think the ATN is well worth the premium cost...

Uk called me back a quoted $495 for their sock. ATN is 8.50/foot from their site. Either way looks like 4 1/2 bills. I may try and get a deal at the boatshow in october. Just don't know if I can wait that long...

ATNagain

So..for my $ (which it rarely is!), the higher quality of materials, hardware, and design of the ATN would steer me that way if the prices is anywhere in the same ballpark..

Cost may actually be less at ATN. I am not sure of the luff length on my chute but guess its around 50' probably less, so at $8.50/foot at Bacons thats 446.25 w MD sales tax. Will have to wait a bit for that one.

I have heard that you want the sock to stop short of the clew with the gennaker doused. Reason being, as the sock is raised the clew can get hung up on the sock mouth hoop thing. Mine (ChuteScoop) is short of the clew and I wish it was longer. I have about 3’ to 4’ of exposed gennaker with the sock pulled down and that is with a 26’ +/- luff. Anyone have a sock that runs past the gennaker clew? Does it hang up?
Anyway Ted, you might be looking at a sock that is 6’ to 8’ shorter than your luff.

http://www.j105.org/j105snuffer.html Very good article on snuffers. I quote their discussion on length:

The length from the bearing point of the upper eye attached to the halyard and the attachment knot of the "snuffer down control line" at the bottom of the snuffer cone bridle, when pulled down hard: Should be about 6 inches shorter than the straight-line distance between the halyard shackle when fully hoisted and the control's block on the end of the sprit (or bow). This allows you to completely gobble up the spinnaker in an emergency while putting some tension on the sock to keep it from flopping in the wind. People will tell you (including the maestro Etienne of ATN) that it shouldn't be longer than the leech. What they are really saying is that it's impossible to pull the cone up around the bunched-up clew buried in the sock. They're right. But, that's not the way we work it. Before the hoist, one pulls enough sail out the bottom of the cone to expose the sheets and clew.

I have a Chutescoop that I brought from an earlier boat. It is about six feet shorter than the leach/luff on the UK tri-radial racing spinnaker that came with my boat (which I fly with an ATN Tacker). Obviously not an ideal setup, but one that works well enough for the few times I actually fly a spinnaker. I have not had to douse it in an "emergency", but since the Tacker allows you to "blow" the tack, I believe that the the Chutescoop will cover enough of the spinnaker to get the beast under control once the tack is released. Some day I may get an asymmetrical sail, but I am not sure that it would be a sufficient improvement on beam reaches and below to justify the expense.