Hank on Jib size for an E25

I have a 1977 Ericson 25 and want to buy a new set of sails for it - actually 3 new sails.

I gave the loft the rig dimensions from my E25 Owner's Manual. The sail loft mentioned that the jib dimensions roughly creates a 76% working jib. Their observation is that this seems a bit undersized for a hank on jib for this boat. Is this a correct figure? If so, this begs the question, what was the intent to keeping the jib so small? Is it a throwback from a quarter ton rating or something else? Should I go to something a bit bigger if I am not a racer? Along with a new main, I am ordering a 150% also - unless someone talks me into or out of something different, like a different size genny or an asymmetrical - and I don't think I'll run with a spinnaker.

I'm not too keen on going to roller furling because it seems a bit fragile for over the road travel and stepping / restepping the mast every time we travel - but I could be convinced otherwise if someone recommends a furling system that is heavily built enough and works in the aforementioned capacity without premature failure or risk of bending, twisting, or breaking.

The boat is primarily for inland waters and some limited coastal cruising.

Any thoughts or advice would be most welcome. I'm new at all this.

Steve Swann
E25 Seahorse

Responding to your questions, somewhat out of order...

After a decade sailing a similar size boat, I would want a jib at about 100 or 110%, i.e. the traditional "lapper" for everyday sailing. This is easy to tack and probably fine as long as the wind is over 10 or 12 kts. For light air, it really depends on your sailing weather -- if you get a lot of "3 kts gusting to 5" then go for the 150%. Otherwise consider something a bit easier to tack, like a 135 or 140. Note that there is nothing Magical about any of these percentages -- if you find a well-equipped boat from the mid-70's days of handicap racing, it may well have a 166%...
:eek:
...And tracks and winch leads to match....

"Racing." This is a word, like "manly" that is used to sell sailors into and out of sails, gear, and attitudes. If you decide to enter a local club race, you will either race against similar boats (like other Ericson 25's, would be best!) with no handicap, or you will be assigned a handicap based on the actual sail sizes you have.
I would purchase sails based on what suits your sailing area and wind averages... and budget.
Having said that, racing is by far the fastest way for a newbie to gain proficiency in sail trim and helming. [And that opinion is worth $.02.]

The spinnaker will need some hardware beyond the sail itself. If you want an Asymetrical, be aware that either type of flying sail has its best wind angle, and either can be a lot of fun to use. On your size boat, in light air, you can singlehand either one with "auto" driving.

The roller furling question is a good one. I hope that others on this site can guide you. I love the Harken furler on our 34 footer and do wish I had put on the prior 26 foot boat... But, you are right about the risks to the foils when lowering the spar -- and this is compounded by having to do it often if you normally trailer sail.
There is an O'Day 25 at our YC with a CDI furler and he takes the spar down about once a year with no apparent problem... but it is a two or three person task.

Best,
Loren in PDX
ps: have you done some searches on this site for sail purchasing comments?

Jib Size

Loren checks in right on the money-AGAIN.

The dimensions on the brochure certainly have no magic. If you want a single hank on jib for all around sailing, and have no additional track on the boat, I think anything from around 75%-125-130% should fit just fine. Something in the 110-130% will give you the widest performance range with good ease of use. Of course, you will be slightly underpowered in under 8-10 knots, and slightly overpowered in anything over about 20, so if you are in a heavy air zone, go towards the smaller end, if a light air zone, go towards the larger ballpark, but this is a decent compromise for a "one size fits all" sail.

What you really need to do is give your favorite sailmaker the IJPE, and then give them at least the following info:
Tack fitting to the front of the track
Tack fitting to the aft end of the track.
Full hoist (jib halyard all the way up) to the front of the track
Full hoist to the aft end (wrap the tape around the spreaders).
Max available hoist.

I would shoot for a clew height about 6" above the lifeline height for good visibility.

The loft should have a form they can fax you (or can they come to the boat?) with all of the dimensions they need, but the above are the key items.

With that info, a properly fitting sail can be built-size is up to you.
Good luck,
S

Mostly Less Confused Now

Thanks for all the good information, guys. Without much experience with the boat yet, I wanted opinions about how much foresail the boat "likes." You've both done a great job giving me good points to consider. And no, Loren, I have not yet perused the site for sail purchasing comments (but now will do, of course!).

I did fail to mention that my 25 is a c/b model (but I'm sure you've both assumed this anyway).

My budget allows for whatever the boat needs - and I like it to have nice stuff for it, so for me, fortunately, this isn't a limiting factor. I think you've answered my question about undersized well enough that I think my decision will be to try Minney's to find a good to excellent condition used hank on jib that is relatively undersized. For my 3 new sails, I'll go with a new 100-110% jib, 150 Genny, and a new main. The loft says I'll have them for next season.

I will be taking the boat to the loft for exact fit and measurments this summer. For the price of new sails, believe me, they will get to see this boat up close before they ever cut cloth!

As a final question, what do you guys think about going with tanbark - just to be different? Are there existing CC&R's in this group forbidding this egregious departure from the traditional white??

Many thanks for sharing your expertise, time, and consideration.

Steve

sails

You are on the right track Steve! If you go with new 150, and 100-110 genoas, then you should really try and make the Minney's sail very small-70-80% size. This will give you a good very heavy air sail-which will be a good reduction from you new smaller headsail...

Regarding Tanbark...well, this is more often seen on wooden boats or replicas of very old style boats. The problem is performance. This stuff just is not very good fabric from a performance viewpoint. Very stretchy, so you may be dissappointed to see the draft in your new sails move aft within a very short time (from the designed locations), and get a hooked leech, etc. What this means to you is a slower boat, a boat that heels more than it should (from aft draft and hooked leech), and hard to keep "in the groove" while steering (from the entry becoming too fine as the draft moves aft).

Other than that, it is FANTASTIC!!! Oh, yes: It is also not very durable, and VERY expensive compared to "normal" sailcloth, but other than that.....get the picture?

Do your self a favor. Since you can afford new high quality sails, go with a very good, high quality fabric. Ask your sailmaker about maybe using a composite fabric for the 150, and maybe the mainsail.

Enjoy!

S

It's only $

Thanks, Seth.

OK, I'm convinced; tanbark is definitely out for my Ericson. But, high quality is always the best overall value in my book. Someone once was quoted, "Buy the best and you'll never be disappointed." Works most of the time.

The loft mentioned composites don't last very long in severe sun (not as much a problem in the NW, but they mildew easily in the NW). I still think a "fragile" high performance composite would be fine for me because the sails stay in my high desert locale in an insulated shop most of the time; clean, covered, dry, and out of the sun. They would therefore remain very usable for a very long time under the conditions which I sail. (I am also doing a total refurbishment of a Nor'Sea which will eventually split my sailing time - hey, maybe tanbark here!) I think I'll take your advice and go with the high performance cloth and figure out how to care for it. Fast boats are fun.

right you are

Good call-in truth, as you guessed, the newer composites are not really so fraglile-especially if you are able to take resaonable care of them-and it sounds like you will. Fast IS fun, and you sound like the type who would appreciate the extra boost great sails will give you (over simply "good" sails).

Also, yes, the Norsea is a way better candidate for Tanbark...but I still think the performance loss outweighs the aesthetics...
We are all here to help-don't be shy about asking for it!

Cheers

right you are

Good call-in truth, as you guessed, the newer composites are not really so fraglile-especially if you are able to take resaonable care of them-and it sounds like you will. Fast IS fun, and you sound like the type who would appreciate the extra boost great sails will give you (over simply "good" sails).

Also, yes, the Norsea is a way better candidate for Tanbark...but I still think the performance loss outweighs the aesthetics...
We are all here to help-don't be shy about asking for it!

Cheers

Decision Made

OK, I'm going to bite the bullet and order new sails for next season. Who knows, with 3 new sails I'll have to rename the boat "Fast & Furious 3" and quit using Seahorse as a crabber.

We are bringing Seahorse to Port Townsend for the Gathering on the 18th (We are arriving a few days earlier to make sure our we get our money's worth from our out-of-state license, crab trap, and dilute the price of $2.50/gal. fuel enroute by adding a few more days.)

Hopefully, you folks are attending?

Steve

Trailering and a furler

Steve,
Just for your information, I have had no problems raising and lowering my 34 foot rig on my ericson 25+ with a harken unit 00AL. It does add about fifteen minutes to the process and is a bit of a bear to slide the foils up and down to adjust the turnbuckle, but is great for sailing. I use the furler mostly with a 110 jib and like it a lot. Good luck on your new sails, and good call on a 110 and 150, those sizes of headsails will work well for the boat. Ryan Ericson 25+ Moonglow

Durability of Roller Furling on a Trailerable

Thanks, Ryan! I'll look at the system. With respect to durability, what is your assessment of how well this unit will stand up to trailer sailing where I might raise and lower the mast a dozen times each year?

Trailering and harken 00AL

Steve,
As long as you are careful and have the furler tied off to the mast when you trailer the boat, I see no issues. I raise and lower Moonglow's rig by myself with no problems. It is nice to have help, but not required. For mast raising it get secured to the base of the mast and padded off. The furler is flexable enough to where if the foils bend some, its not a big deal. Where it gets tricky is hooking the darn thing up and making sure you don't lose any of the pieces. The OOAL is made to be able to remove the entire torque tube and drum for trailering. Just don't drop any of the parts overboard. Good luck. Ryan