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E38 Settee (20 gal.) fresh water tank vent

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
I am working on a new vent arrangement for my settee tank. The old vent ran from the tank, which is near the v-berth door - starboard - to the galley sinks, which are aft starboard. Along the way the 1/2" hose was routed through and under cabinetry, as low as the cabin sole, before ending up at waist height 15 feet away. When I got the boat I found the vent clogged with water, and after seeing the routing, decided to wait. Time's up.

I had the idea of a vented loop mounted up under the deck and a thinner hose run down to the bilge, but the path to the bilge is thoroughly blocked by the tank, the grid structure and water supply hoses. I hate to let water drain down the inside of the hull. I am not excited about a vent through the hull as done on the port side for the holding tank, but it would be pretty easy.

The last idea that I have had is to install the loop and simply block the outlet. Excess water during the fill would go up on deck and the water in the vent would mostly drain into the tank - except a few thimble-fulls.

I'd sure appreciate some other ideas, opinions about the above, or your other experiences. Thanks.
 
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u079721

Contributing Partner
What's wrong with the factory method?

Craig,

I guess I don't understand what's so bad about the factory installed set up? With a long run it will be next to impossible to keep from having a low spot in the vent hose run, which will fill up with water. But that shouldn't by itself block the flow, and it will still function just fine as a vent.

I sure wouldn't change things to have an outside vent, as those can fill up with spiders and such. As for your blocked-vented loop idea, that would seem to be workable, in that the vent will still allow air into the tank, and should block water from getting out into the cabin. For that matter, you might consider one of the Racor fuel vent guards, which will fill up to block fluid flow when the line fills hydaulically, but will then vent when the fluid level drops. You could probably use one of these for an inside water vent next to the tank, but they are kind of bulky.

But unless I'm missing something I would leave things as they are.
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Forgot something

I should have had another cup of coffee this morning. I forgot to include some vent modification information in the original post. The PO spliced in a length of 1/4" hose in the vent run under the stove because he needed the room to run other hoses. I can't restore the 1/2" through there. The tank was unusable because the vent had water in it and wouldn't draw into the supply line, after a few gallons.

I was thinking the same thing about an outside vent - it would have to be checked frequently. Salt water intrusion could be a problem - can't go too far forward to install it without getting the cabin ugly. Your answer about the vented loop going to nowhere is encouraging. I have been trying to find a really bad flaw in that idea. I'll have to try it. I've never heard of the Racor fuel vent guards but I'll investigate them.

How does a full run of the 1/2" hose actually work for a vent? I don't see how water can be in a hose that long and be an effective vent. A shorter length like the bow tank seems to work fine. But the weight of the water in the other vent... maybe the 1/4" piece was the problem.

I have decided not to keep the original run. It was sticky, greasy and gross inside and out. You couldn't store anything next to it because of the gummy stuff on it. I could have put a vented loop in the original line, above and outboard of the tank, but I really didn't want to replace all that line after tearing it out.

But all this explaining and typing has made me realize that I do have another alternative. I could replace the original 1/2" up to a vented loop and then adapt down and complete the run with 1/4". The long run would still trap water, but the loop would allow the tank to draw properly. I could try that if the loop to nowhere fails.

Thanks, Steve.
 

u079721

Contributing Partner
Leak in pump?

Craig,

Given what you describe - that is the pump stops working after a short while - it could be that the vent is not venting. In that case the pump should begin working again if you were to open the deck fill.

But the problem might also be a small leak in the upstream connections of the pump, that is on the suction side. I have seen cases where the pump would only work with a full tank of water, because that offered less resistance to pumping. Once the level dropped the slight leak in the vacuum side would bring the pump to a halt.

Just a thought.
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
The big tank will empty without any problems, so it's probably not a leak. I suspect if I'd thought to crack open the deck fill I could have confirmed a vent problem.

I could have saved myself the demolition of the aft section of the vent, but the forward section had to go. Thanks for the thoughts.

Cheers,
 

Geoff Nelson

Member II
Port settee vent ideas

I think my settee water tank vents into a "T" inserted into the filler line of the main VBirth tank fill line. Therefore, when the settee tank is overfilled it goes into the main tank which if overfull goes into the sink in the head. I am fairly sure the T is valved as the settee tank does not fill when the main is filled. There is a lot of room to access that line so it should be an easy fix if you decide to go that route.

Having said all that, the PO was 1/2 way done converting the settee tank into a reserve fuel tank (as he put a watermaker on board). It is cleaned out and the insp port is off but I decided I didn't want to complete the conversion (mainly as I don't want to pull out the water lines and repl them with fuel lines and all the contusions that would cause) and go back to H20.

What would you suggest to seal this insp port... 5200 maybe?

Thanks,

Geoff Nelson
82 E381 Paul Hana
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
I have never used 5200

That stuff is like, THE FINAL SOLUTION isn't it? The access port ring on my tank is sealed with what looks like a clear silicone. Probably an ordinary bathtub sealer, but I'm not sure. Something compatible with drinking water would be best.

Pretty cool place to tap for a vent. A friend has a pair of tanks that crossfill. I wonder if that's the way he does it.

Another alternative. Thanks.
 

e38 owner

Member III
I need air

I have had the problems you describe and have resolved most of them by doing the following

1. double check all the fittings in the water system. I was able to find replacements for some cracked ones at an rv supply store.

2. make sure all the connection have teflon tape.

3. be sure to check where the coonection leaves the tank near the floor.

4. To solve problem filling the tank create a seal at the end of hose so air cannot escape. I have a rubber fitting I created since you don't always know were the hose has been. This will blow out the water that gets trapped in the vent line and the tank will vent smoothly. :)

1981
Ericson 38 #30
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Tried the blocked loop idea

It didn't work. The air heading out the vent was plenty to close the little flapper at the top of the loop. The S-curve in the vacuum cleaner style filler hose (which needs replacing anyway) probably prevented air from venting out that way. So the tank never filled, but the filler hose did. This, along with e38owner's experience, confirms to me that putting the vented loop in the standard system would not have worked, once water got trapped in the low spots.

Then we verified there was nothing wrong with the filler system by filling the tank with the vented loop opened up. Worked fine. Caught water coming out the vented loop in a bucket.

I am beginning to consider how Geoff's vent into the filler of the forward tank might be mocked up and tested without too much time or expense. That seems like it would work. Is the fitting custom made or just a big "T" with some reducers?

Also, I am not sure what e39owner meant by his last point. It seems like you've found a way to handle the problems with the standard system.

4. To solve problem filling the tank create a seal at the end of hose so air cannot escape. I have a rubber fitting I created since you don't always know were the hose has been. This will blow out the water that gets trapped in the vent line and the tank will vent smoothly.

Thanks,
 

e38 owner

Member III
seal between hose and deck fill

I make a seal between the hose connection from the freshwater hose on the dock and the deck fill such that air cannot escape. The first time I did it I wrapped a plastic grocery bag around the end of the hose to make seal the opening. I turn the water on quite high. The pressure in the tank forces the water out of the vent and then the tank fills fine and the seal is not needed.


On my 38 each tank is run to a valve under the sink. I only use one tank at a time. There is not a t between the tanks. I shut one valve when the tank is not in use or empty so the pump does not pump air from the empty tank
 

Geoff Nelson

Member II
Vent pics

Craig,

I am taking some pics of my canvas for Ted R later this afternoon. I will take some of the vent for you as well so you can see what the PO did.

Cheers,

G-
 

Geoff Nelson

Member II
pics of settee tank vent

Craig,

This is not glamorous but is a simple solution to a small problem. The braided line is the vent from the stbd settee water tank and the grey is the fill from the deck for the main V-Birth tank which then vents into the head sink and then overboard to port. Thinking about it now, I may add a couple more hose clamps between the check valve and the filler- the hydraulic head on the VBirth tank is prob pretty significant on those days when I am too lazy to reef the jib.

Cheers,

G-
 

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footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Thanks guys.

e38owner, I have the same undersink valving to change between bow and settee tanks. But I guess I won't be messing with the standard vent anymore. I bet the tank oilcans and booms pretty loudly when it fills and builds pressure to flush that long vent.

Good picture, Geoff. The check valve must allow air to pass both ways. I am leaning that way. If I manage to make a neater installation I'll post a pic. My bow tank fill hose is the new smooth white PVC - like spa hose. I'd probably have to put in a T, or modify a union.

My settee tank fill hose is the same as in your picture. Probably replace that while I'm in there, since it leaks out of the plastic collar with just a couple feet of head on it.

Good input.
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
The water at my marina just got turned back on so I decided to fill the tanks and see what happens. (new boat) I have an 89' E 38-200. The port setee tank was removed by the PO to make room for AC/Heat. So I just have the v-berth tank and the starboard one. I was always curious about a spigot that was in the head as it looked like the type you operate with a foot pump but there was no pump. Well that I found is the vent for the starboard tank, which is located in the cockpit locker. So as the tank vented excess water into the sink in the head I found out that the drain for that sink was clogged. I felt like the sorcerers apprentice as I could not stop the water from running over. Found a toothpaste tube top buried in the sink drain hose. Also discovered that the cold side fawcett in the head does not seal completely when off, so I removed the fawcet to replace it. That turned into a royal PITA as access is lousy and the PO really did a job in there. I probably could have repaired the fawcett but I have never had success with those things. I am guessing that my forward tank vents to the galley sink as there is a third spigot there too, and I follwed the hose most of the way there. Is this the way Ericson set the boat up, with the tanks venting to the sinks? Seems to work fine I just never saw that before. On my transom are 3 vents one is for the fuel tank, one for the holding tank, any idea what the third is for?

Tanks for the help guys...
 

Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
I did a lot of work on the plumbing in my head over the years including changing all the head hoses and replacing the faucet (twice since my wife wanted the shower put back). I found that the only practical solution was to remove the sink to do the work. That was a huge pain because it was originally glued to the counter with silicone. When I replaced the formica top I did not glue the sink back so it may leak a little around the edges. I also waterproofed the area below the sink so that any overflow does not end up on the cabin sole but drains through a tube to the bilge. Back in the days when I let my yard fill the water tanks on recommissioning some idiot failed to open the sink thru hull and the overflow ran all over.
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
My tanks are vented to the sinks

Ted,

On my 1980 the settee tank (20 gal.) on the right up near the entrance to the v-berth, vented to the galley sink. That created a long, water clogged run that was the starter of this thread. My 60 gal. v-berth tank vents to the sink in the head - a short run - and that one works fine. I'd guess venting to the sinks is a tradition on the 38's and I'm amazed that the 'vent to the galley sink' design survived the practical test.

I have replaced the galley faucet without removing the sink and had problems tightening the supply hoses - too much flex in the copper faucet lines, not enough access. Next time I feel like starting an endless, impossible job I'm going to lift out the sink and straighten out a few things, plus maybe replace the double sink with a single. That's a way's down on the list, though.

Now you've got a spare toothpaste cap! Talk about a silver lining.

:rolleyes:

P.S. Your third transom vent may be for your propane tank locker(s)?
 
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u079721

Contributing Partner
Some comments....

First, the ONLY way to work on the plumbing in the galley or the head is to remove the sink first. It may take an interesting combination of socket extenders and couplings, but the effort is well worth it. After my first encounter with the plumbing I just removed the sinks and replaced them without putting silicone under the lip. Seems to work just fine.

As for the vents, on my '89 E-38 the tanks did indeed all vent into the galley sinks. Which is nice, in that you don't have to worry about salt water getting in, or bug nests, but you DO have to remember to open the sink stop cocks when topping off the water. (Been there....)

As for that third vent, it is the CNG regulator relief fitting. I'm not sure what that means, but you can trace it back to the CNG tank on the shelf.
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Thanks Steve. Always amazes me the details you recall about your old boat. Any light at the end of the tunnel on getting a new boat?
 

u079721

Contributing Partner
Not yet...

Still looking for a job. Once I find that, we'll see if there is even water anywhere around. If not, my next boat will have to wait till retirement.

In the meantime I can at least follow along reading all about your projects as you refit your own E-38. (Boating over the internet may not be as satisfying as the real thing, but it is a lot cheaper and a lot less work!)
 
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