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list to starboard?

mark reed

Member III
I read through the survey of a 1989 E38 that Ted Reshetiloff posted in an <a href="http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=1743">earlier thread</a>, and was interested to see that the surveyor noted a slight list to starboard. My '88 E38 also has a slight list to starboard, no matter how I adjust stowage, fill or drain tanks, etc. And last summer, in the Gulf Islands, the owner of an E35 out of Vancouver rowed by our boat and told me that his boat also lists slightly to starboard, no matter how the boat is loaded. It was his belief that the bottom of the hull mold was slightly skewed so that when the keels were bolted on, they were slightly out of vertical.
Has anyone else noticed this? Is this a generic trait on larger Ericsons? Or is this how "urban myths" get started? :egrin:
 
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ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
It was my belief that for the boat in question it listed to starboard due to the water tank that was located under the port setee was removed to facilitate installation of an air conditioning unit. There remains a weter tank, holding tank and batteries on the starboard side, along with a water tank in the bow and a fuel tank 56 gal(?) on the port side. I amticipate upon filing the fuel tank, emptying the holding tank and relocating some of the batteries that the boat will sit level. I have not heard of anyone else having this problem. When I site the line of the mast, keel, and rudder all appear to be in the same plane and perpendicular to the hull...
 

tilwinter

Member III
List Mode

I think I mentioned this during an earlier discussion of the same topic, but I had such an experience on an earlier boat, an Elite (French, Kyrie Yachts). It was definitely the keel being somewhat "canted", perhaps a little ahead of it's time.

I have read that the problem stems from attaching the keel before the fiberglass of the hull is fully cured. Subsequent warping of the hull itself in the curing process leads to this problem, but I only saw it mentioned once in one of those books on surveying boats.

Kudos to your surveyor. One should always examine the scum lines on one side versus the other, and pursue any differences. I was able to measure (while out of the water obviously) a difference in the distance from the deck line to the keel tip on one side versus the other. When I sold the boat, I did not initially mention this defect, to test my buyers surveyor. She did not pick it up. I did then point it out.
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Thanks Rod, I will certainly check that measurement. The good news is that my best friend just started working at a local rigging shop and it getting me 20% on materials and doing all the swaging for free (beer) in order for me to replace all of the standing rigging including turnbuckles!
 

Lew Decker

Member III
List?

Yep...I have a 1977 Ericson 39B that I swear is "crooked"! If you look at the mast and at the waterline the boat appears to have a slight starboard list. Unfortunately, it is most noticeable below where it feels like the boat is down in the bow as well. I stowed a 100-pound inflatable in the port cockpit locker and a 22-pound Delta with 40' of chain and 300' of 5/8" line in the stern locker. I also drained the 40-gallon water tank the PO installed below the V-berth. I then removed one of the two CNG tanks to the port locker in the aft cabin. Results? Nada. Zero, as in el zilcho. My next attempt will be to move the battery banks into the port locker in the aft cabin and rewire the whole thing. After that, I might even try lead pigs somewhere aft and on the port side. Am I nuts? Probably, but somehow it just doesn't add up that the normal starboard-side structure is enough to cause the list.

Actually, I'm the only one who notices it. My wife does now, but only after I kept complaining about it. She just told me to shut up and enjoy our beautiful boat. She's right. I'll shut up, now. :)
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Listing

Well, Lew has my second favorite Ericson design..but the point here is that the the 39/39B was a completely different construction from the newer boats (38's etc.). Frankly, I can't imagine either one of those methods allowing for the warped keel thing to occur.

The hull AND TAFG in the 38 are well cured by the time a keel is hung, and is VERY stiff. The boat spent a few weeks with the grid bonded in place while the interior and deck were installed-BEFORE the keel was hung. The tolerances of how the TAFG mates up to the hull make it virtually impossible for the keel fillet to be off center-and the grid is internal, anyway.

BTW- the 39's were built in 2 halves, and the keel encasement is part of the hull-so either way, I don't think any of this listing is caused by anything other than wieght placement.

I recall seeing this often at the factory- we always "splashed" each boat in our pool when it came off the line, and it was common to see the 38's list-that water tank, batteries, holding tank and furniture are the culprits.

It really does not cause any problems though (you are stiffer on stb. tack-great for sailing to Hawaii!!). Try as best you can to remove and/or offset weight and enjoy the boats!

Good times!
S
 

clayton

Member III
starboard list

Our '89 32-200 lists to starboard aft as well. I've tried filling just the port settee water tank and leaving the starboard (under lazarette floor) water tank empty. No change. My friend's '87 38-200 does not list to starboard, though he does have refrigeration mounted under the sink. There is a thread on this subject (with replies) in the Sailnet archives. Several owners have added lead weights to the port side to balance out the list. One owner used heavy chain he could "pour in" to areas. I'm going to try lead weights this year, either under the sink/dry goods locker (there's a shelf in there) or under the port settee. I did see on a PHRF scratch sheet -

www.phrfne.org/page/571 (modifications page)

some comments regarding a 34-2 adding 400 pounds to the port side. I know that even when I stand at the port rail it doesn't make much difference, at 180 pounds, so maybe 300 - 400 would be the right amount. The one time in 3 years of owning this boat that the list has bothered me was this past summer, trying to sleep in the v-berth, and feeling like I was sleeping downhill. Guess I didn't drink enough beer...

Clayton
 
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ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Just how much of a list are you folks seeing? On mine the scum line was maybe 1/2" higher on the starboard side at the most. When we launched the boat for the sea trial I did not notice it. Perhaps I will when I spend more time on the boat. It does seem to be a common problem with these models based on the responses to this thread. I will take a measurement from the keel to the deck to check that alignment.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
If you put the word "list" or "port list" or "startboard list" into the little box you get when you click on the Search command, upper right portion of this screen, you will find similar commentary.

We bought our boat knowing that it had the "Olson 34 port list". Near as I can tell, no one properly calculated the weight differences of the interior modules betwixt one side and the other. I have been moving installed items to the "light" side and then increasing water tankage on that side, for some years now, and can report that the boat sits level with the starboard water tank filled....
In our particular case, the whole aft section is sorta "hollow" on starboard side with the huge aft berth, and the other side is a huge lazarette that fills with all sorts of heavy "stuff"......
:)

Looking around our 150-boat moorage (and I walk it at least once a week, being moorage chairman for the YC) I see listing in lots of boats, no one make or model predominating, price and pedigree having nothing to do with it.

My last boat, a Hinterhoeler-built Niagara 26 had a slight list at rest, too.(Port, if you must know...)

If your tilt is only about an inch difference in the waterline, join the crowd!
:rolleyes:

And stack all the tools, spares, and cases of beer on the other side...

All the best,
Loren in PDX
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
1980 E38 - lists to port

An older 38 perspective.

We noticed a list to port during the walkaround on the boat when we first went aboard during our search. I've not measured it but if the pendulum type heeling gauge in the cabin is correct, it's about two degrees. The list shows up at the waterline and when looking at the mast from behind or in front.

I have attributed the list to the fact that the P.O. located two more house batteries on the port side (for a total of 5 including the start battery), which makes for shorter wiring runs. He used 0-0 cables. The second alternator, a 190-amp unit, is hanging on the port side of the engine. There's an AC battery charger-inverter (Heart) and a second AC charger under the aft-port dinette seat with two of the house batteries. We store a toolbox, spares box, and our sea bags in the port aft quarterberth.

I have not tried to see how I could get enough weight to starboard and level the boat, yet. I am working on the vent for the starboard settee tank, so it's been less than half full - it's only 20 gallons anyway, but filling it may help.

As for performance, I noticed a half-knot to a knot difference in speed between the port and starboard tacks one day going south along Vashon Island. It was 18-22 knots wind and puffy. I had one reef in and the working jib up. Careful trimming and steering showed the difference to be about half a knot.

I have decided not to worry about it. We sleep in the v-berth and haven't had a problem when we're horizontal.
 

tdtrimmer

Member II
1981 E38 List to Starboard

Our E38 also has the list to starboard, about 2 degrees or 1.5 inches on the water line. On this model, there is a 20 gallon water tank on the starboard side but it is offset by the three batteries and fuel tank on the port side. We have tried about everything we can think of to load the boat on the port side but it seems to make little difference in the list to starboard. Measuring from the rail to the keel as a check for symmetry is a good idea. I will check it out as soon as the snow disappears.
 

u079721

Contributing Partner
Rag Doll too

Our 38 also listed just a bit to starboard. But with the holding tank, one water tank, batteries, cng tank, and a lazarette (full of WAY too much cruising gear) on starboard I wan't too surprised. On port all you had to balance that out was the main water tank, stove, and the fuel tank. We did note, however, that when we were in full cruising mode, with 10 heavy blocks of ice in the ice box (to port) that the list was gone (along with the water line too I might add).

After a week at anchor enough of the ice would have melted, and enough of the water tank would have found its way into the holding tank, that we again would list to starboard a bit. I don't thing anyone else ever noticed though, and I don't recall ever really noticing the list from a distance across an anchorage.
 

timoteo

Member II
not the only 1!!!

:egrin:


well guys and dolls ,its not only you guys, am the proud owner of a E 29, with a lill more the portside ,tried everything......and then just 1 day went out sailing ,cranked the engine and as soon as you move , y'all should check it , the big problem is all goooooooneee,
may the wind be with u,
tim
 

CaptnNero

Accelerant
My last boat was an E32-200. It listed to starboard a few inches. I corrected it by putting 220 lbs of 4 lb lead ingots in the bottom of the aft bedroom locker. I fixed it in place with a piece of plywood fastened to the sides of the locker.

I got the lead in the form of wheel weights from a local recycling center for $20. That beat the heck out of $1 per pound plus shipping. Then I set up a propane fueled kettle outside away from the house and melted off the steel clips and dirt which floated to the surface. Finally I poured the lead into a muffin pan to make several of the 4 pounders at a time. It took much less than a 20 lb propane cylinder to do all of the melting.
 

ligolaiva38

Member II
Listing to Starboard

Well, it seems to me if your boat doesn't list to starboard it isn't and Ericson just like if you don't have blisters it isn't an Islander sailboat.
I put wine bottles on the port side in my Ericson 381 and when the boat starts listing a little to starboard I know it is time to replenish the wine on the port side. Consequently, I have yet to run out of good wine on a cruise.
John
Laiva E-381
 

Sean Engle

Your Friendly Administrator
Administrator
Founder
My 35-3 had a small list to starboard - about 2 degrees as close as I could tell... From what I've heard, most of the Ericsons have it...

//sse
 

CaptnNero

Accelerant
What list ?

When we were selling the E32-200 last year, one of the customers asked our broker why it didn't list to starboard like all the other Ericsons.:egrin:

He was prepared for the question and showed him how the bottom of the locker in the aft port bedroom was labeled with "220 Lbs Lead Ballast Below This Panel" !

-- neal

Sean Engle said:
My 35-3 had a small list to starboard - about 2 degrees as close as I could tell... From what I've heard, most of the Ericsons have it...

//sse
 

Brisdon

Inactive Member
Boats have all sorts of things on them that aren't placed symetrically. Batteries, tanks, the galley stove. The farther you move weight outboard, the less weight you need to add to counterbalance the trim problem. I have a spare anchor and rode behind the port seat backs in the salon to balance my additional batteries on the starboard side. Just move stuff around. Also, if the mast is skewed to one side it can effect your trim. Tap a halyard to the port and starboard rails and see if the same length touches on each side.
 
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