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We Didn't Mean to Replace the Holding Tank

Marlin Prowell

E34 - Bellingham, WA
Virginia and I purchased a very fine Ericson 34-2 last fall. When we took possession, the head had that certain odor which was never there previously during any of our inspections and sea trials. Time to investigate.

We looked under the head cabinet and found the optional Ericson Rube Goldberg plumbing system. The toilet outlet led forward to a Y valve where we could flush directly overboard or send things back aft again to the holding tank in the lazarette. The Whale pump in the head cabinet lets us pump the holding tank contents overboard via an outlet in the holding tank. And, almost as an afterthought, a second outlet on the holding tank is used for pumping out the holding tank at a pumpout station.

The Y valve was set to pump directly overboard. Yikes! That's not legal anywhere we are going soon. So I switched the Y valve to direct the toilet outlet to the holding tank. But it wouldn't move. After some effert I got it to partially switch to the holding tank, but could not get the Y valve completely switched to the holding tank.

I needed to replace the Y valve. I purchased a new Y valve, stuffed rags in all the downhill corners and pulled it out. I had flushed and pumped out the tank several times before starting, but still questionable water flowed out of the hoses. When I got a look at the hoses I remembered again there no such thing as replacing just one thing in a plumbing job.

All the hoses had a large buildup of salt deposits. A bad case of hardened arteries. The hoses were at half capacity or less. They were also old, so we decided that we'd replace the hoses. Besides, that's probably the source of the smell.

The hoses to and from the holding tank went into the lazarette, went under the full length of the Ronco B-142 tank that sits on a the shelf above the water heater, then finally to the fittings at the aft end of the tank. I searched the ericsonyachts.org web site to see how others have dealt with the hoses under the B-142 tank. Nothing. Huh.

We tried using couplings to attach new hose to old and then pulling it through under the tank. It was brutal. The hoses took a 90 degree downward turn at the front of the lazarette shelf, at the far and inaccessible end of the holding tank, and there was no way we could force stiff hoses through the narrow opening. After an hour the hoses had moved perhaps a foot. This was not going to work. The holding tank needed to come out so we could get access under the tank.

The Ronco tank had been installed so it would never come out. It was framed in with 1x4 planks and some of the hold-down screws could no longer be accessed. I took out the screws I could reach and used a chisel and hammer and hacksaw on the rest. Finally the beast was free. We took out the holding tank and could easily remove the old hoses.

The hoses led down through a crudely cut slot in the lazarette shelf. It didn't look like something Ericson would have done. I slowly realized that this tank was not installed by Ericson, but by a previous owner.

The holding tank was out of the boat, and all the sanitation hoses were out of the boat. There was still that smell. It was not gone.

I consulted the book by Peggy Hall, the Headmistress. She said that the Whale overboard pump could be a source of odors. As far as I knew it had not been used (because everything was getting pumped overboard), but I pulled it out and had a look.

It was corroded beyond repair inside. There was hardly anything left of the metal brackets inside that hold the pump flaps. Even a rebuild kit could not repair this Whale pump.

It was then that I realized the full extent of our problem. The B-142 holding tank sits on a shelf above the water tank and the tank outlets are at the bottom of the tank. The first "deposit" into the holding tank goes into the tank and then immediately runs downhill to the Whale pump in the head, where it sits ... forever ...

The B-142 holding tank currently built by Ronco has a capacity of 23 gallons. Ronco has recently been building tanks with thicker walls, so the capacity of the B-142 tank installed by a previous owner might have been as much as 25 gallons. That previous owner decided to replace the stock B-187 tank with a B-142 to gain just an extra 5 gallons of capacity. Or maybe there were other unknown factors in the decision. But regardless, it was a major remodel of the holding tank plumbing to install the B-142 tank.

We will not reuse the existing holding tank because it will just flood the Whale pump in the head the first time it is used. So we need to replace the holding tank. Our question to you is which option you would pick:

1. Purchase another Ronco B-142 holding tank, but put all the fittings on the top of the tank. This should keep the tank contents from flowing downhill to the Whale pump, and also shorten the run to the tank inlet. The clearances for fittings on the top of the tank look tight but doable. But this option is only 3 gallons more than the standard tank.

2. Purchase a Ronco B-179 holding tank. This is a tank with the same basic footprint of the B-142 but is 6 inches longer. It has a tank capacity of 30 gallons. Fittings would go on the top of the tank for the same reasons. It has the same clearance issues as the B-142 tank but appears that it would work.

Both of the above options put the holding tank up high under the deck and against the outside hull on the starboard side. This can be a lot of weight, equivalent of someone sitting permanently on the starboard rail.

3. Purchase a Ronco B-187 tank that was originally installed in the Ericson 34-2. This will put the weight down low and towards the boat center line. It has a 20 gallon capacity.

Further considerations: this is our first boat with a holding tank. Our previous San Juan sailboats all had porti-potties and we managed quite well with 5 gallon "holding tanks". The water requirements for a porti-pottie are different, obviously, but the porti-potties were not constraining.

Questions for Ericson 34-2 owners (and others):

Do you find the 20 gallon Ronco B-187 tank too small? Do you wish you had a bigger tank? Peggy Hall says that the holding tank for a 30' - 35' boat should be between 20 and 30 gallons and 35' and above boats should have a minimum of 30 gallons. What is your recommendation?

If we choose to buy a Ronco B-187 tank which is what was originally installed in an Ericson 34-2, how is the tank installed and secured? All traces of the original Ronco B-187 tank installation are gone. What brackets and braces keep the tank in place? Photos of your installation would be wonderful.

Thanks in advance for everyone's help and advice.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Holding Tank notes

Some trivia from my reformat of our boat's holding tank system and all hoses.
You can sometimes solve a 90 degree turn problem with a SS elbow from McMasterCarr, or a plastic elbow piece with barbs.
The newer all-plastic (mostly, anyway) pump from Whale, can replace the old aluminum unit in the head but the mounting bolt holes are a bit different. The waste corroded out the interior of our factory pump, also.

Never be (unduly...) afraid of making sensible changes in the system.
I changed all of our tank connections to top-fill and dip tubes for the exits on our new Ronco tank.

Here is my thread link, and with a little searching there are others here also.

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...-Holding-Tank-Piping-amp-Valves&referrerid=28

You can get some great advice from owners of sister ships, here.

Oh, and while the old parts are out, wipe down every nook and cranny with bleach and soap. I did that and also painted on some additional white gel coat.
Cleanliness is a wonderful thing... :0

ps: Love the reference to Arthur Ransome!
 
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toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Dunno...Ronco tanks that just didn’t quite fit had been crammed into my boat by crudely enlarging hatch openings in the V-berth and Q-berth decks. The corners of the tanks protruded, but I suppose were hidden by the mattresses. They would have been pretty uncomfortable to sleep on, I bet. I figured it must have been a PO trick, but someone else on here said that their boat came new exactly like that. :0 Maybe a dealer thing. As a matter of fact, I finally just patched those holes a couple of weeks ago, after they’d been bugging me for years.

I’ve currently got it plumbed so that it’s not possible to pump the head directly overboard. The y-valve allows the holding tank to be emptied to the through-hull through the macerator, but in the normal position, it drains the combined output of the head sink, watermaker, and heat pump. I might re-think it if I ever spent more time in places where it was legal to discharge.

Every time the system gets used, I do fill it with freshwater from a dock hose a couple of times and exercise all parts of the system. And I wonder about lubricating the seldom-used macerator (rebuilding it the first time was a nasty job). But I shy away from introducing oil to the hoses and tank.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
The good news is you can design your plumbing for your needs, since it sounds like total replacement of hoses and valves is required.

Some boats never pump overboard. Some never go on long cruises. Some are moored next to a convenient pump-out station.

The Ericson full-monty--as Loren calls it in the thread cited above--is actually marvelous, and works for me but may be overkill for others.

For example, I "never" cruise more than a night or two with other folks. That's to and from Catalina Island. Crew likes to use the toilet facilities there. The holding tank is lightly burdened.

I use the macerator to pump the tank overboard anyhow, on any passage a few miles offshore. The Whale is the back-up for that. (Should the holding tank fill, and overboard discharge be not available, the toilet is rendered useless. This has happen to me on a very long cruise. Should you like to be disgusted, I can describe the solution, which is to open the deck waste fill and, er, proceed as usual. The waste overflows very conveniently there).

However, as it happens I have a brand-new public waste pump station 1,000 yards from my slip. So pumping out there is always an option.

In sum, owners' needs vary a lot.

My conclusion is that, if you can pump overboard or have convenient pump-out stations, there is no need to install a gigantic holding tank.

And of course--this is significant, I think--a "holding tank" is not for holding waste very long.

It must be pumped out as soon as possible after use, and flushed with fresh hose water from time to time.

Odorlos? Yes indeedy. But storing effluent all summer, even with Odorlos, is the rookie mistake that delivers boats to new buyers with irremediable stench.

Oh, and rig for fresh-water rinse. A simple "T" under the vanity sink will do it. Salt water in the holding tank is awful, introducing organic matter even beyond our own production, and flushing with salt water is why the toilet bowl turns green, grows weed out of the 50 irrigation holes, and gives the head compartment its special personality.
 
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toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Another consideration for those of us in the frozen north is that many pump-out stations get closed for the winter. Leaving waste in the tank (and hoses) for months at a time is NOT a good idea.
OK, maybe it only affects crazy people who like to cruise in the frozen north.
 

K2MSmith

Sustaining Member
Oh, and rig for fresh-water rinse. A simple "T" under the vanity sink will do it. Salt water in the holding tank is awful, introducing organic matter even beyond our own production, and flushing with salt water is why the toilet bowl turns green, grows weed out of the 50 irrigation holes, and gives the head compartment its special personality
I discovered yesterday that if I fill the sink with freshwater and pump the head, the fresh water from the sink seems to go to the head. I am not sure if if gets mixed with seawater though. So maybe when I flush the head, i should just always run the sink ?
 

Jerry VB

E32-3 / M-25XP
Switch to a composting type head (Air Head / C Head / Nature's Head)? Since you were happy with a porti-pottie previously, usage would be similar to that but a major step up in convenience for emptying.

Advantage: Side-steps all the tankage and plumbing headaches and smells with what should be a simple installation and no smell.

Disadvantage: You will have to spend more money and won't be able to use the $$$ parts you've already purchased (see the "sunk cost fallacy" however).

There is a lot of information on this very site. Here is a good blog post of an installation.
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
I discovered yesterday that if I fill the sink with freshwater and pump the head, the fresh water from the sink seems to go to the head. I am not sure if if gets mixed with seawater though. So maybe when I flush the head, i should just always run the sink ?
Sounds like you have the head input T'd to the sink drain line. Close the sink drain hull valve and fill head sink, then pump the head and you will have all fresh water flush. This REALLY reduces head bowl odors from tiny critters in the bowl water, particularly if your boat interior gets hot like mine. The hassle is opening the sink drain to wash your hands and drain the sink. Also you are using freshwater vs unlimited seawater.
I leave the head sink valve closed all the time (and the original head intakes well) and wash my hands in the galley sink. You could eliminate the head intake hull valve with this setup, IF, you have easy access to the head sink drain hull valve (mine's a PITA to operate) and have enough freshwater.

Mark
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
Marlin,

I can't help with E34-2 specific issues but I did remove and renew my entire head/holding system. Once the old parts are out, the work is not bad except for the head rebuild and holding tank cleaning.
I re-used my Ronco B-135 20 gal tank with side (at bottom) outlets due to my arrangement limitations.
20 gallons is fine for me but I mostly day sail and I have the Annapolis pumpout boat available everyday for $5.
I would absolutely change to top (dip tube) outlets if I had room above.
I can't pump overboard in the Chesapeake, so my head pumps direct to holding tank (no Y valve). This is the inland waters/lake setup.
I have two holding tank outlets (no Y valve). One for deck pumpout and one (never used) for new OB pump, new hose and thru hull (always SHUT). For often offshore sailing, a Y-valve between head and tank or OB discharge is unavoidable to pump head direct OB. I would still use two tank outlets and no second Y-valve to empty the holding tank.
I used Vetus Sanitary hose (no smell yet - 7 years) for max flexibility in my very tight space. I've read here that Raritan san hose is also flexible. Also soaking the hose in hot water helps it flex.
I rebuilt my original Raritan PHII head which is a solid, well built item. Parts still available from mfg.
I upsized my holding tank vent to 1.5 inches and used sanitary hose (per Peggy Hall).
I added a SCAD SOLO-1 tank monitor while I had the tank out.
I added freshwater flush via a head sink drain T.
I had to custom build removable holding tank supports (painted red) to secure my tank after I removed the factory supports to get it out.
I've been completely happy since the rehab in 2014. No smell what so ever.

Mark

IMG_1327.JPGIMG_1329.JPGIMG_1330.JPG
 

Bolo

Contributing Partner
When we bought our boat, many years ago, the head was a stinky mess of old hoses, ”Y”valve, maybe cracked holding tank and whaler pump. We sail the Chesapeake Bay so pumping overboard isn’t an option. The only reasonable course of action was to replace everything and eliminate the “Y” valve, whaler pump, along with blocking the thru hulls for pumping the head or tank overboard. In other words I made the setup as simple as possible. One way into the holding tank and one way out via the deck pump out. The holding tank replacement on our E32-3 matched the old existing one which was a Ronco B173 - 15 gallon. I also installed a fresh and holding tank monitor with a readout at the Nav station. Mostly it’s just my “first-mate” and I sailing and the 15 gallon capacity tank has always seemed quite adequate. Plus, unless we’re running low on fresh water (while at anchor), we never use bay water to flush but rather pull the flexible shower hose out from the head sink and use it to squirt into the head. There are many places on the bay to pump out so our setup has rarely been a problem, if ever. Like it has been stated on this thread before, we all sail in different areas requiring different solutions. So you have to plumb out your system to meet those requirements but, IMO, keep things as simple as possible. The more complicated the bigger the chance of something breaking or clogging up. Recently I also replaced the old Raritan lever pump handle type head with a new Jabsco twist ‘n’ lock because rebuilding the old Raritan was a lost cause. I found that the Jabsco, with its up and down pump handle configuration as opposed to the Raritan lever pump was a big improvement. The white vent (next to the trash can) is where the old whaler pump was located.
216561AC-E4E4-431D-8ADC-6A04D0555D67.jpeg216561AC-E4E4-431D-8ADC-6A04D0555D67.jpeg
 
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Marlin Prowell

E34 - Bellingham, WA
@K2MSmith Peggy Hall (the Headmistress) describes a scheme where you put a tee fitting in the sink drain hose below the water line. If you keep the sink drain thruhull closed, the head draws water from the sink. If you open the sink drain, pumping the head should pull sea water through the tee fitting into the head. She notes that you may have to put a stopper in the sink drain to get enough suction to pull sea water into the bowl.

I could not find a tee fitting that is rated for use below the water line. Plus I didn’t like the idea of three more hose to barb connections below the water line. So this winter I installed a Y valve under the sink. One input comes from the sink drain hose via a tee fitting. The other input comes from the head sea water thruhull. The output goes to the head. All those connections are above the water line. This season I’ll experiment with the fresh water/sea water flush ratio to see what works best.
 

Rocinante33

Contributing Partner
I discovered yesterday that if I fill the sink with freshwater and pump the head, the fresh water from the sink seems to go to the head. I am not sure if if gets mixed with seawater though. So maybe when I flush the head, i should just always run the sink ?
Yes, and as mentioned, keep the thru-hull from the sink closed and the fresh sink water will not be mixed with salt water.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I don't know that waterline has much to do with it.

The sink drain is T'd for the option of providing fresh water flush, or straight drain of sink water overboard.

(I have to set the valve "head flush" for the placard to work)

IMG_4681.JPG...t placard.JPG
 

Marlin Prowell

E34 - Bellingham, WA
@markvone I did all the things you suggested above. You can see a picture of our holding tank here. Especially no Y valves. There’s a plug where the second output dip tube will eventually go. It has worked well.
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
@markvone I did all the things you suggested above. You can see a picture of our holding tank here. Especially no Y valves. There’s a plug where the second output dip tube will eventually go. It has worked well.
Whoops! I see now that you started this thread in 2019. I've had zero issues or smell in 7 years since I re-did my system so you should be good for at least the same. It's worth doing this job right and only ONCE.

Mark
 
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