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Newbie. Ericson 35 MKII. Atomic 4 issues. Feeling discouraged. Need Advice. Help.

DeFranco84

Member I
Hi all. My name is Kevin. I live In San Francisco. I grew up land locked on the east coast and always dreamed of learning to sail. This year i decided to turn my dream to reality. After lots of saving I purchased a 1975 Ericson MKII. Heres the backstory: So this is my first boat. I found her on craigslist. I was recommended a mobile mechanic who i contacted and came with me to inspect the boat. So cosmetically she is pristine and everything looked amazing. We went to start the Atomic four engine and it would not turn over. It cranks and sounds like its about to start but does not turn over. The owner Said he hadnt started it since last september and was going to put a new electric fuel pump in it which he had ordered and would throw in for free with the boat. I looked to the mechanic who agreed and said once we put that fuel pump in it should fire right up and that I had a good deal hear and should go for it and he will put in the pump for me and get her started. I listened and bought the boat for 15k which i had been saving for 2 years. So a few days later the mechanic comes and puts in the new electric fuel pump and drumrolllll. NOTHING. the engine does not turn over. He says "Oh no problem it just needs a set of points order them from moyer and I ll put them in and she will fire up" I order the points a few days later he puts them in and NOTHING. Does not turn over. He now comes back a third time and starts it right up by spraying Quick start starter fluid into the carb. It runs on the ether for a few seconds then shuts down. Mechanic said "you are probably out of gas" I put 5 gallons in and nothing. I fire this mechanic and call another. He comes on the boat and within 5 min by sight alone says I could use a new head gasket, studs, manifold, oil pressure switch plugs and oil. (did not do compression test or any test) Each mechanic refused to follow the Atomic four unexpected shutdown checklist that Ken at moyer sent me because "they didn't need it". I feel like a real schmuck for not doing enough research. Every single mechanic ive called in the bay area said they will not work on A4 s and that I should save my money and repower it or get a new boat with a diesel. List marine said they would take a look as well as SF boat works but both said I would have to get it towed to there yard which was quoted as 1000 bucks. Im feeling really overwhelmed and discouraged about my new purchase. Its sitting in the slip. Stuck. Noone will work on this engine and I got quoted at 20-25 k to repower it with diesel. Well more than I paid for the boat or its value. I have dreams of starting with coastal cruises to the farrolones , half moon bay and santa cruz and one day single handing to Hawaii like sir Christian Williams in Thelonius. (he is such an inspiration, just finished philosophy of sailing). What should I do? Any advice? Is it true what the mechanics say? Should I ditch this ancient Atomic bomb engine and eat the cost of a repower eventually? I mean this A4 fired up with starter fluid so im guessing its a fuel issue and just getting it to run on the gas is the solution, but now im just bummed in the long run from all the research ive done on the A4 now and seeing how no one will work on it and now I feel stuck. HELP.
 
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bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
Hi, Kevin!

I can't help with the A4 questions, but I'd offer:
-- you're in the right place, there are people here who know that thing inside and out....
-- EVERY boat is a project. Especially our vintage.
-- Ericsons have really good bones, so you did good there.

So... breathe.

As Christian once said... "Everyone thinks in terms of completion. It's a misunderstanding. The job at hand is the end and the meaning. The need to finish fades, the nature of the work becomes the goal, the imagination is engaged. We grow with the process. We become it."

"finished" is an mythical place, when it comes to working on boats. enjoy the journey, it's often the best part of the ride.


$.02
Bruce
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Seems like the first step is to work through the Moyer manual on your own and head over to their forums for help. I sure wouldn’t think about repowering at this stage. A4’s are very simple engines to work on. Start with the basics: confirm fuel, air, and spark. Systematically work through the system and you’ll find the problem.

For example, with an engine that sat for a long time, the fuel in the bottom of the tank may be bad or full of water - adding new fuel may not help without cleaning out the old. Or the carburetor may be full of shellac and need cleaning.

In this day of smart phones and LTE, one can often post a question to the forum while you’re right there on the boat and get an answer or suggestion in real time.

If you really want someone else to do the work, maybe someone on the Moyer forum knows someone in your area...
 

Mort Fligelman

Member III
Fixing an Atomic 4

Kevin: I am going back a very long way....1970's when "Boat Mechanics" in Chicago were scarce as hens teeth (also...a very ancient expression) and Atomic 4 was a mystery.

A fellow with a big power boat who happened to own an auto repair said he had an employee that was always looking to make a side buck and he would get him to take a look.

He told me this was nothing more complicated than a Chevy Nova 4 Cylinder.... and proceeded to go through it and found that water in the gas.....crud in the carb, and a bad ground was all it took to get it to run like a sewing machine.....

Moral of this...look outside the "BOAT" world.....there are plenty of competent guys out there...many probably have forgotten more about engines than the fancy "Marine Specialist".... I have been doing this for years.....not looking for a bargain...just a fair shake

Hope this give you a bit of sucess......good luck
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
When you say "It won't turn over" do you mean it won't crank (starter won't go wirr, wirr or do you mean it won't fire (start running)?
 

DeFranco84

Member I
Thanks for your kind words everyone!! Supersailor, It makes sound when im cranking it sounds like its about to fire up it just wont.
 

Gary Holford

Member II
Don't waste time on mechanics and rocket scientists. Clean and rebuild the carb. Change the spark plugs and syringe a few drops of gas into each cylinder. Bypass your fuel tank with some new fuel line and try starting from a small jerrycan of clean and ETHANOL free hi-grade. Go shopping for a plastic tank to replace the dirty rusted one in your boat.
 
L

Leslie Newman

Guest
NEVER spray starting fluid into a gas engine. The engine is not meant to burn that. Too hot a fuel.

Make sure that your engine compartment is vented properly so no gas fumes are accumulating in there. You don't want to blow up the boat.

A gas engine is very simple. You need AIR, GAS, SPARK. You must have all three. Timing of the spark and pistons comes into play, but if nothing was changed on the engine then timing should be fine and you are missing one of those three critical elements.

Air is easy. It comes into the top of the carb. Remove the air cleaner during troubleshooting.

Spark is from the points closing and opening, but you need the coil to be working so that a spark is generated. The points close, with the +12v properly feeding the coil it builds a magnetic field, the points open, the coil's magnetic field collapses and the only place that the current generated (from the coil field collapsing) can go is through the spark plug wire, to the distributor cap, jumps across the rotor and then follows the spark plug wire to the spark plug where the spark plug arcs and ignites the gas/ air mixture waiting in the appropriate cylinder. There is a point condenser in the circuit. That is actually a capacitor and it is there to protect the points from burning. It absorbs any current spike. A condenser can go bad and cause the circuit to fail. Fairly cheap to replace the points and condenser. Always replace them as a set.

The points must be 'gaped' so that they have the correct opening distance so they function correctly and open/close at the correct time. You use a feeler gauge so to gap the points the correct distance.
The coil resistance can be measured with a multi-meter to see if it is correct. But you can also tell if the coil and points are working by removing the plug wire from the distributor cap (the center wire) and hold it very close to the engine block and see if it a spark jumps from wire to engine when you turn over the engine. I have worked on gas engines forever, but have never owned a sailboat with a gasoline engine as I hate having gas on a boat. You definitely want to make sure you have the boat wide open, engine compartment good and vented so no gas fumes are present when you begin your troubleshooting.

If you have air and spark then you are missing the gas. You need to verify that the fuel pump is working. Remove the gas line from the carb and route it into a gallon jug so you can catch the fuel and then crank the engine. Does it pump gas? No, then fuel pump, fuel filter, fuel line collapsing, clogged some place. Yes it does pump fuel, then maybe the needle valve in the carb float bowl is stuck and it is preventing gas from entering the bowl. Gas must enter a carburetor and it fills a bowl containing a float. The float does just that, floats up and shuts off the fuel flow by pressing on a needle valve, hence keeping the fuel level correct in the bowl. As gas is burned (sprayed into the intake manifold) the fuel level will go down in the bowl, float lowers, gas comes in, float goes up. That simple. The float must be set to the correct level in the carb, per instructions in a carburetor rebuild kit or service manual.

As mentioned earlier, probably needs a carburetor rebuild. Kits are usually cheap and can be DYI, just take your time and follow the instructions in the kit. Usually you can get away with verifying the float setting and replacing the needle valve assembly after thoroughly cleaning the carburetor. So, if you have fuel flowing, then stop all the troubleshooting and rebuild the carb. If it set a while I would think it had gas in the carb and that carb is gummed up.

Remember, AIR, GAS, SPARK.
 
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DeFranco84

Member I
Thank you SO MUCH everyone. all your advice has been amazing. I met a really great retired marine mechanic who wants to do the repair with me and show me and teach me as he does it which is ideal for me at this point. I just ordered a new Zenith Carb and Tune up kit from Moyer. We are gonna start with draining the fuel doin some tests and popping in the new carb , plugs rotor and cap. The new electric fuel pump is in so im hoping this will solve all the fuel issues! Will keep you posted!!!!
 

Glenn McCarthy

Glenn McCarthy
Most of us who have been doing these things for a long time jump right to the solution. However, for a newbie, it is daunting to start out.

The more you try things on your own, after first watching some videos (youtube is a great source), and reading articles online and boards like this one, suddenly you see that these things are actually pretty easy to do. Commonly they don't take a lot of tools, just the effort to try, then try something else if the first thing didn't work.

There is so much knowledge given for free on the internet you eliminate the labor costs and make it the cost just of parts then. I have used the internet for many of the projects I've done on this boat, and I have been fixing up old boats for 50 years.

I was doing some math in my head last night, I've put about 100 days into our 35-2. The guy we use for repairs sometimes charges $100 per hour. If I charged that, it would be $80,000 of my labor. How much have parts cost (1/4 was electronics) to keep me busy for 21 months? $6,366.72. And as I say, this boat should have gone to the woodchipper rather than restored. It was really in rough rough shape. Proportionately hands-on will save you tons of money or about 12.5 labor cost to 1 part "parts" cost.

Now, how does 100 days look? My wife said, "With all of the time you have put into this, I can't see any change." So the important thing is to make it look professional which I find takes vision. I have to imagine the whole project to the end so that the end is polished, painted, varnished, etc. leaving no trace behind that I was there to begin with.
 

caretta

Junior Member
Don't get discouraged. The engine is very simple and can easily be worked on and improved. You will need to develop these skills as you learn the boat.

First go to Moyer Marine and get the Atomic 4 manual. There are also lots of pearls on the Moyer website while you wait to get the manual. As the previous poster said it boils down to air, fuel and spark. If you are getting nothing after some easy stuff on the fuel side (including a little squirt of starting fluid in the flame arrestor) I would bet it is the ignition/spark side of things. This can be anywhere from the key/panel wiring to engine wiring to spark plugs. Get spark plug tester that goes between the plug and plug wire for about $10 dollars at NAPA before you spend any more money on mechanics and parts to see if you have juice in the ignition system.

Just remember to vent everything well and you can suck seawater into the cylinders if you continually crank it with the cooling water intake seacock open.

Good luck

Chris
 

DeFranco84

Member I
Tomorrow is the day of truth! I will keep everyone posted. Another question for you guys. I was at the hardware store today and grabbed some stuff. What tools should I always have aboard? I bought a full socket set, adjustable wrench, pliars, wire cutters, screw driver set and a full wrench set as well as shears. Anything else tool wise I should have handy always. Got a head lamp and flash lights and Just got my Moyer A4 manual in the mail!! Also Are there any cons to the electronic ignition? I just ordered the kit. Reccomended over the points condenser system? pros or cons? I cant state enough how helpful everyone here has been. I am feeling way more hopefully today then I was a few days ago. (even though ive owned this boat for 2 weeks and I m already near the 1200 dollar mark towards the engine already lol)
 
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Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Hi,
More tools: you will need a crimper for electrical connections, Allen keys, a sharp knife, possibly a drill and drill bits, large pliers or pipe wrench, Teflon tape, electrical tape, cable /zip ties, hose clamps, fuses, spare nuts, bolts, screws, washers, multi meter, oil filter wrench, metal saw blade, small wire brush to clean electrical connections, sandpaper, grease, dielectric grease, and probably a few more that I haven't thought of.
Frank
 

DeFranco84

Member I
Hi,
More tools: you will need a crimper for electrical connections, Allen keys, a sharp knife, possibly a drill and drill bits, large pliers or pipe wrench, Teflon tape, electrical tape, cable /zip ties, hose clamps, fuses, spare nuts, bolts, screws, washers, multi meter, oil filter wrench, metal saw blade, small wire brush to clean electrical connections, sandpaper, grease, dielectric grease, and probably a few more that I haven't thought of.
Frank


Thank you Frank! Just added to my list.
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Tools: I still haven’t figured out a complete list. Someone recommended going from stem to stern on the boat, looking at every piece of hardware, every screw and bolt, and asking yourself “what tool do I need to remove and replace this?”
As I’ve said before, you know that an engineer has done his job when your new thing comes with a small set of tools that contains everything you need. But that is not boats.

Atomic 4 water pump requires a set of small snap-ring pliers to replace the impeller. Something you’ll only discover when you are a hundred miles from the nearest pair.

Stuffing-box packing nut requires two adjustable wrenches (maybe channel-lock pliers, but risky) that open wider than what you have available and have short enough handles to reach into whatever awkward space is behind your engine. (Or you could measure the nut and purchase box wrenches of the proper size.)

One thing that bothers me about this thread is the theme of buying new parts without first diagnosing the problem. It’s about as effective as sacrificing a chicken, but more expensive.

Not that I haven’t done that a few times. :rolleyes:
 
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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Tools !

Over the decades, watching for sale prices at Sears, I have purchased some good quality sets of tools "just for the boat".
I recall that Christian W has advocated installing a set of tools on the boat, rather than trying to schlep them back and forth from the home... and often leaving out the one you need when you are at the boat.
:rolleyes:
I have a socket set, with both metric and SAE sockets, regular and deep. This has 1/4 and 3/8 drives with extenders. Those deep sockets are invaluable.
I also have two separate "roll up" pouches with combination wrenches, one SAE and the other Metric.

I have couple of nut drivers that fit both common sizes of hose clamp screws (1/4 and 5/16)
There are several phillips screw drivers and one or two straight blade drivers.

Slip joint pliers and small and large vice-grips.
Strap wrench for engine filters.
Long nose pliers, and a larger "lineman's plier".

For fastenings in tight spaces, two "offset ratchet" screw drivers, phillips and straight.

Most valuable is a short-handle "drilling hammer" with a 2# head... 3# might be better. Often you are working inside a tight space and need apply some force where there is only a couple of inches of space to move the hammer. I found mine at Harbor Freight for a couple of dollars.

There is an abused and not very sharp 1" chisel.
On the subject of abrasion... a chain saw file, and a short standard file and a rasp.

You will sometimes be working in a part of the bilge or under some parts that were fitted with some sharp/rough edges, when the boat was finished out 40 years ago. Chamfer those sharp places so you will not rip the skin on your hand and wrist while doing your maintenance or upgrades.

My old (and still useful) "Fiskars" hand drill with it's four bits. When you need one little hole in wood or frp, this saves having to mess around with bigger drill motors and power sources.

And the List goes on........

Oh, and don't forget to have a cork screw and a can/bottle opener on hand!
:egrin:
 

Jenkins

Member II
Also Are there any cons to the electronic ignition? I just ordered the kit. Reccomended over the points condenser system? pros or cons?

One issue that has been experienced with electronic ignition (EI) is burned out coils. The dwell angle for EI is quite different than that for points so the coil is energized for longer.

The kind and helpful folks over at the Moyer forum (http://www.moyermarineforum.com/forums/index.php) spent a significant amount of time researching this issue and can tell you exactly what to measure to know if it will be of concern for your boat and if it is, what size of external resistor (costs a few $) to get to resolve the issue.

I cannot urge you in strong enough terms to get over to that forum - there are some incredibly experienced A4 folks over there (Don Moyer occasionally chimes in himself) who are delighted to help people diagnose and repair their A4.

Best regards,

Peter

PS - as Tenders (a highly respected Moyer forumite) has noted, throwing parts at the engine with no careful diagnosis IS expensive and can be counter-productive with an engine that is not running. For example, I believe you have replaced your fuel pump and on that basis feel confident that you have a good fuel supply. Have you actually checked that the pump is delivering fuel? There are several reasons why a brand new pump that is not faulty will not deliver fuel - problem with the pump wiring, bad oil pressure safety switch, rotted out fuel pick-up tube in your tank, plugged filters, etc... I am not trying to be harsh here. Just want to emphasize that if you use a careful, logical approach to diagnosis you will typically end up getting the repair done more readily and at a lower cost
 

bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
What tools should I always have aboard?

As far as a starter set, you're in good shape. I have a basic socket set (both metric and SAE, because many of the fasteners on the Universal diesel are metric); I have a set of combination wrenches, I have a basic set of good-quality screwdrivers (probably 8 in total, spanning both phillips and straight, in a variety of sizes), an assortment of pliers, vice-grips and channel-lock wrenches, and then I have a small set of "chapman tools" which provides a variety of bits (phillips, straight, hex, torx) with a ratchet driver, super-useful in small/awkward spaces. Oh, and a small mallet with soft-rubber on one side, hard plastic on the other.

Most of those are kept in "tool rolls", which I find useful... if I need wrenches, I grab the "roll" that has the combo-wrenches in it and take it to wherever I'm working.

Beyond that... I've organized other tools into a set of project bins.

-- I have an "electrical" bin which has the appropriate set of cutters, strippers, crimpers, etc, along with an assortment of crimp-fittings, coax-terminals, a butane-powered soldering torch, wire ties, pretty much everything I'd need for a wiring project.

-- I have a "woodworking" bin, which has rasps, surform-tools, sandpaper, wood-chisels, a couple of small saws, teak plugs and such... everything I'd need to work on a wood-working project.

-- I have a "fiberglass" bin, with assorted epoxies, fillers, glass cloth, cups, squeegees, putty knives, assorted resins and solvents and thinners, etc. And

-- I have a "rigging" bin, with fids, thumbles, spare fittings, nicro-press tool and sleeves, whipping twine, needles and thread, a small torch for melting ends, etc.

Probably overkill, but it works for me. My premise is that if I'm working on a (e.g.) rigging job somewhere on the boat, I grab the rigging bin and (hopefully) everything I need is in there, (hopefully) cutting down on the number of times I have to go hunting for the tool I just set down somewhere.

The collection will grow over time. Don't worry about trying to get "everything you need" - get a good basic set of tools, and from there your projects will tell you what else you need.

Oh, and knives. Lots and lots of knives (laughing). Seriously, I'm always hunting for a knife, so I have one stashed in the cockpit, one in the chart table, one in a galley drawer, one in each bin... whatever. I'm always losing them so I buy cheap-but-good, usually Spyderco knives, which have a good edge but don't cost so much that I cry when one goes for a swim.

EDITED to add.... I go thru my bins each fall when I'm putting the boat away for the winter. If I run across a tool I haven't used for a whole year, it might go home. Or it might not. But at least I give it a half-a-second pause to decide whether its presence is worth the space it takes up.

Bruce
 
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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Kevin,

Our amateur knowledge of engines and such will always be incomplete--although occasionally more complete that the guy you hire.

What works is just to plunge in hands-first, skin knuckles, and see what happens. But what if you break something? What if you can't get it back together?

Then hire the professional. Such an approach takes the anxiety out. And most of the time we muddle through, even the first time.
 
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