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[E32-3] Cockpit bench crackling / crack noise

Geoff W.

Makes Up For It With Enthusiasm
Blogs Author
Splitting off this thread to save my internet conscience: http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=121283

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by pgadd
Every Ericson I've walked the deck on has had areas that go "crack" when you step on them, indicating a potential delimitation or not enough epoxy or whatever they use in fiberglassing).



Geoff W: Not to hijack the thread, but to hijack it - what sort of repair job is this? I've noticed the port bench in my cockpit crackles a very slight bit when I step on it. But I see no cracks in the gelcoat or anything, so I'm not sure it's worth freaking myself out about.

Examine the hinges, they may be lose.

Fixing the crackling noise is easy - you don’t have to (in my opinion), except maybe to get religion about sealing any deck penetration to stop further water from ingressing, which you should do anyway.

Only when the crackling is accompanied by sponginess, indicating an actual breakdown of the structure, do you need to fix it. And then, the repair is intimidating and messy - but ultimately not very difficult and very satisfying once you’ve convinced yourself you can do it. It was amazing to me how few tools were involved - a table saw, a grinder, a sander, scissors to cut the fiberglass, and an optional oscillating saw (Harbor Freight, $17). And a whoooooooole lotta epoxy.

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...-E32-cockpit-core-repair-an-illustrated-guide

This was a bigger, more existential job; if it didn’t work it would’ve been the end of the boat. But, spoiler alert, it worked perfectly:
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...?13256-Seeking-advice-on-E32-mast-step-repair

EDIT: I see Christian was opining on the crackling too. He’s absolutely right, because the benches and hatches have only a small portion of cored glass, and it’s often well-sealed. But the hinges, if they’re loose or stressed, can concentrate force and make the surrounding fiberglass flex and make those sounds.

So this bench making the noise doesn't actually have hinges(circled in red)
darkside crew 2.jpg

It's just a very minor flexing/crackling noise as I step on it. Like you said, Tenders, maybe I don't have to worry about this whatsoever? I notice no significant flex or softness.
 
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Tin Kicker

Sustaining Member
Moderator

nquigley

Sustaining Member
I'd start by tapping the area out to see if there is any soft core.
Some videos which may help from Boatworks Today are below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=339W-ZNC1_0&t=791s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J4xgjX63OE

There is a thixotropic flexible epoxy to be aware of too and I've got some cracks that I intend to try it on. Expensive but should help prevent further cracking and may help you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwNNnK-XBMQ&t=466s

There's also 'penetrating epoxy' which can be injected into pockets of rotten deck core:
https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/...c9ed4e1007f9ccaff90e88421e77b139&action=click
 

Geoff W.

Makes Up For It With Enthusiasm
Blogs Author
Does anyone have any idea what the coring looks like underneath the glass, there? I can't pull the headliner above the q-berth (it's all stapled in) to look, but it's weird to me that there would be a small pocket of wet core on the cockpit settee, which doesn't have any hardware directly attached to it or anything. But tapping around it with my metal coffee mug this morning (very official), there was some change in noise from the edges towards where the cockpit "wall" begins.
 

nquigley

Sustaining Member
Does anyone have any idea what the coring looks like underneath the glass, there? I can't pull the headliner above the q-berth (it's all stapled in) to look, but it's weird to me that there would be a small pocket of wet core on the cockpit settee, which doesn't have any hardware directly attached to it or anything. But tapping around it with my metal coffee mug this morning (very official), there was some change in noise from the edges towards where the cockpit "wall" begins.
Not with any good reason to believe this, but I'd guess (?) that port-side seat has the same structure as the starboard seat (that's also a lazarette cover). Maybe the extra material visible under that cover adds stiffness for walking on and that one would have to have a very thick 100% fiberglass layer to avoid flexing over that big a span of unsupported surface.

This weekend we discovered significant sponginess in exactly the same location as you mentioned under the port settee of a Catalina 22 in our club's training fleet. We were equally confused, until we realized that a compass mounted in the forward cockpit bulkhead, right above that settee, was no longer well-sealed in the bulkhead ... inspection revealed that water had run down the outside of that bulkhead (which is very steep on a C22 = large catchment area), then in behind the compass via the failed seal, and then down the inside of that bulkhead and had turned the corner to the forward end of that settee. In our case, a very large area (2x4') under the settee was mushy - we scraped it all out and now have one of those lovely upside-down fiberglassing jobs ahead of us.
 

tenders

Innocent Bystander
There's also 'penetrating epoxy' which can be injected into pockets of rotten deck core:
https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/...c9ed4e1007f9ccaff90e88421e77b139&action=click

I can confirm firsthand that this does not work. The balsa core took decades to get wet and will never be dry again. The epoxy does not stick to wet wood or fiberglass, and it cures weirdly or not at all while wallowing in a wet environment. You end up with a booger of epoxy gunk floating in a sea of mushy balsa. If it is you who eventually does the proper repair, when you pull up the fiberglass you will laugh a little at the naïveté of the person who put it in there with the best of intentions but the feeblest of results.

It might work in a cabinetmaking environment where you can COMPLETELY dry out the wood before applying the epoxy - but this is not that.
 

frick

Member III
What's under the glass

Does anyone have any idea what the coring looks like underneath the glass, there? I can't pull the headliner above the q-berth (it's all stapled in) to look, but it's weird to me that there would be a small pocket of wet core on the cockpit settee, which doesn't have any hardware directly attached to it or anything. But tapping around it with my metal coffee mug this morning (very official), there was some change in noise from the edges towards where the cockpit "wall" begins.

Having drilled a big hole in my deck... Ericson used a end grain balsa core that glasses top and bottom.
The hard point they used plywood, again glasses top and bottom.

my best guess is a kid jumped from the cabin top to the cockpit and over flexed the glass and core and created the creaking noise.

you might try a tap test to locate the problem area, drill a very small hole and see if it's wet or dry. If wet use a bent nail on a drill to extract the mushy wood and a vacuum it out. Inject epoxy into the hole.

Rick
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Does anyone have any idea what the coring looks like underneath the glass, there? I can't pull the headliner above the q-berth (it's all stapled in) to look, but it's weird to me that there would be a small pocket of wet core on the cockpit settee, which doesn't have any hardware directly attached to it or anything. But tapping around it with my metal coffee mug this morning (very official), there was some change in noise from the edges towards where the cockpit "wall" begins.

Apropos of whatever, our prior boat had a small area of the fore deck that tapped out differently with a small hammer. I worried that water had gotten in around the base of the adjacent stanchion.
So I removed the stanchion, and found that the balsa in all of the holes was totally dry. Final analysis was that there was a small unintended void in an area about 2 X 2 inches. A surveyor friend looked it over and tapped it, and confirmed that moisture was not a problem after all.

Just a minor data point, but sometimes the cause of the symptom is not what we think it is, at first.

FWIW, this was before moisture meters came into common use and then were well-tested in field service.
 
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bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
...tapped out differently with a small hammer... small unintended void

It's a good point. An area where the balsa is no longer bonded to the fiberglass (or never was) will sound different from the nice sharp sound you get from a healthy cored laminate. It's possible that the core is dry, but that flexing (over time) has detached it from the fiberglass.

*IF* the core is present and dry, and simply no longer bonded, squirting some epoxy in and applying pressure to force a bond might solve the problem.

Bruce
 

kapnkd

kapnkd
Does anyone have any idea what the coring looks like underneath the glass, there? I can't pull the headliner above the q-berth (it's all stapled in) to look, but it's weird to me that there would be a small pocket of wet core on the cockpit settee, which doesn't have any hardware directly attached to it or anything. But tapping around it with my metal coffee mug this morning (very official), there was some change in noise from the edges towards where the cockpit "wall" begins.[/QUOTE

You’re correct that with no fittings in the glass it is odd the coring got wet. If someone jumped onto the seating from the dock or cabin top - possibly it slightly separated (??).

Only wet coring found on our boat over the years was a result from around fittings or hatches in the deck & cabin top areas. ...A moisture meter is a good way to figure out what’s going on without drilling holes.

BYW- the strbd cockpit locker cover doesn’t have balsa coring in it. There may be a piece of regular plywood glassed in is all.
 

tenders

Innocent Bystander
It’s also possible that you could stabilize the bench by epoxying some plywood or G10 strips along its length from the bottom, where I don’t think it’s visible except maybe to people sleeping headfirst in the quarterberth, to give it extra stiffness.

I did this by accident in my cockpit. A long time ago, I had affixed a strip of 3/4” thick firring to the overhead of my engineroom so it would be easier to screw in and place wiring guides for the engine and bilge pump. I used 5200, unwisely, I now know, but it worked. When I had to replace the core of my cockpit, I did it from the top and cleared the top layer of fiberglass and the core out of the deck, leaving the very flimsy and thin bottom layer of fiberglass as a base. However, the area where that firring was attached underneath was surprisingly stiff and strong.
 

nquigley

Sustaining Member
I can confirm firsthand that this does not work. The balsa core took decades to get wet and will never be dry again. The epoxy does not stick to wet wood or fiberglass, and it cures weirdly or not at all while wallowing in a wet environment. You end up with a booger of epoxy gunk floating in a sea of mushy balsa. If it is you who eventually does the proper repair, when you pull up the fiberglass you will laugh a little at the naïveté of the person who put it in there with the best of intentions but the feeblest of results.

It might work in a cabinetmaking environment where you can COMPLETELY dry out the wood before applying the epoxy - but this is not that.
Of course one has to dry it out first (e.g., heat gun). This video used it successfully on a rather rotten section of foredeck, using International Everdure:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvsIEE6_dvw
Main part of interest is 5-7 min
 
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tenders

Innocent Bystander
That video shows application of penetrating epoxy to allegedly sound plywood, not balsa core; it is being painted on an exposed surface, not injected; and in my opinion they should have just replaced that piece of plywood anyway since it is not clear how thoroughly they dried it. They replaced the adjacent plywood anyway.

Epoxy, thinned or otherwise, is a great coating for wood with no UV exposure, including replacement balsa core. But it isn’t effective as a core rot remedy.
 
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