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TAFG - which boats?

sgwright67

Member III
As I consider various Ericson models, I have been trying to categorize them to help me distinguish the various design features, and also to recognize them at the dock. One thing I am unclear on is which boats go the TAFG. Here is my rough list so far. I've left out anything below 27 and above 38. Maybe this info is already on here somewhere?

27, 29, 31I, 32-2, 35-2, 36C, 37: first generation true Ericson designs (as opposed to those inherited from others) with encapsulated longish fin keel

28, 30-1, 30-2: not really sure where these fit?

28+, 30+, 32-3, 34, 34T, 35-3, 38, 381: first with bolt on keels (triangular), not sure about TAFG on these

33RH, 36RH, 34-2, 32-200, 38-200: TAFG and newer interiors but 32 & 38 based on same hull as 32-3 and 381 versions (which implies that the 32-3 and 381 both have the TAFG)

I'd love to know more about the evolution of the designs, and the sailing and structural characteristics of each family of designs.
 

Afrakes

Sustaining Member
81' 28+

My 81' 28+ had an encapsulated keel and no keel bolts. My 87' 28/2 does have keel bolts and the keel is not encapsulated. I should have added that the 87' has TAFG.
 
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markvone

Sustaining Member
As I consider various Ericson models, I have been trying to categorize them to help me distinguish the various design features, and also to recognize them at the dock. One thing I am unclear on is which boats go the TAFG. Here is my rough list so far. I've left out anything below 27 and above 38. Maybe this info is already on here somewhere?

27, 29, 31I, 32-2, 35-2, 36C, 37: first generation true Ericson designs (as opposed to those inherited from others) with encapsulated longish fin keel

28, 30-1, 30-2: not really sure where these fit?

28+, 30+, 32-3, 34, 34T, 35-3, 38, 381: first with bolt on keels (triangular), not sure about TAFG on these

33RH, 36RH, 34-2, 32-200, 38-200: TAFG and newer interiors but 32 & 38 based on same hull as 32-3 and 381 versions (which implies that the 32-3 and 381 both have the TAFG)

I'd love to know more about the evolution of the designs, and the sailing and structural characteristics of each family of designs.

28, 30-1, 30-2: not really sure where these fit?
.
E28 (also know as E28-2) came after E28+ has TAFG, bolt on keel and usually T shaped cockpit with wheel. E28+ was a chopped version of the E30+, has linear cockpit, tiller or wheel and most importantly offset prop shaft which pulls to one side when motoring. Should have full or partial TAFG - see E30+ but not bolt-on keel.
E30-1 earliest 30, King design, maybe in the E27/29 family, not sure
E30-2 early version of the E30+ with outboard rudder (E30+ was a "modernization" of the E30-2 to eliminate outbd rudder). E30+ has a partial TAFG, assume no TAFG on E30-2.

28+, 30+, 32-3, 34, 34T, 35-3, 38, 381: first with bolt on keels (triangular), not sure about TAFG on these

30+ first but partial TAFG, 28+ prob partial TAFG (but not bolt-on keel)
32-3, 35-3, 38, 381 all full TAFG
34, 34T and 34X too old for TAFG (c1979 with E30+)

33RH, 36RH, 34-2, 32-200, 38-200: TAFG and newer interiors but 32 & 38 based on same hull as 32-3 and 381 versions (which implies that the 32-3 and 381 both have the TAFG)

33/36RH - Ron Holland designed moderate IOR designs with more racer orientation, lighter but still with full teak interior, E36RH probably first full TAFG (see below), 28 and 32 boats sold respectively, this did not make Bruce King happy with Ericson management

32-200 is a modification of the 32-3 with the then trendy Euro aft head layout
34-2 is a modification of the 35-3 with the then trendy Euro aft head layout
38-200 is a modification of the 38 with the then trendy Euro aft head layout

Mark
 

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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
(which implies that the 32-3 and 381 both have the TAFG)

They do.


The Ericson 38 began in 1980, the 381 in 1983, the 38-200 in 1986 (head moved aft) and the Pacific Seacraft 380 in--1989? 1990?

The interiors of E38s had various layouts and touches. The hull, keel, mast and rudder were unchanged throughout the runs.

The 38-200 configuration is identified in profile by a small additional portlight at the aft cabin house:

Arrow 38-200 profile Capture.JPG
 
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sgwright67

Member III
28, 30-1, 30-2: not really sure where these fit?
.
E28 (also know as E28-2) came after E28+ has TAFG, bolt on keel and usually T shaped cockpit with wheel. E28+ was a chopped version of the E30+, has linear cockpit, tiller or wheel and most importantly offset prop shaft which pulls to one side when motoring. Should have full or partial TAFG - see E30+ but not bolt-on keel.
E30-1 earliest 30, King design, maybe in the E27/29 family, not sure
E30-2 early version of the E30+ with outboard rudder (E30+ was a "modernization" of the E30-2 to eliminate outbd rudder). E30+ has a partial TAFG, assume no TAFG on E30-2.

28+, 30+, 32-3, 34, 34T, 35-3, 38, 381: first with bolt on keels (triangular), not sure about TAFG on these

30+ first but partial TAFG, 28+ prob partial TAFG (but not bolt-on keel)
32-3, 35-3, 38, 381 all full TAFG
34, 34T and 34X too old for TAFG (c1979 with E30+)

33RH, 36RH, 34-2, 32-200, 38-200: TAFG and newer interiors but 32 & 38 based on same hull as 32-3 and 381 versions (which implies that the 32-3 and 381 both have the TAFG)

33/36RH - Ron Holland designed moderate IOR designs with more racer orientation, lighter but still with full teak interior, E36RH probably first full TAFG (see below), 28 and 32 boats sold respectively, this did not make Bruce King happy with Ericson management

32-200 is a modification of the 32 with the then trendy Euro aft head layout
34-2 is a modification of the 35-3 with the then trendy Euro aft head layout
38-200 is a modification of the 38 with the then trendy Euro aft head layout

Mark

Thanks, Mark. This really helps complete the picture. Interesting about the 30-2 > 30+ > 28+ development and the decision to go back to encapsulated keel. I wonder why? Maybe the used the old 30-2 keel mold for the 28+?

So the 30+ was a test platform for the TAFG perhaps? I have found some photos of the TAFG and the tierods from the chainplates, but what does the connection at the bottom of those tierods, to the TAFG, look like? How susceptible are they to deterioration from moisture, and can they be inspected? The earlier plates glassed into the hull like on the 29 are a maintenance problem, but I wonder about the how the bottom of the tie rods will be after 30-40 years?
 

sgwright67

Member III
(which implies that the 32-3 and 381 both have the TAFG)

They do.


The Ericson 38 began in 1980, the 381 in 1983, the 38-200 in 1986 (head moved aft) and the Pacific Seacraft 380 in--1989? 1990?

The interiors of E38s had various layouts and touches. The hull, keel, mast and rudder were unchanged throughout the runs.

The 38-200 configuration is identified in profile by a small additional portlight at the aft cabin house:

View attachment 26241

Thanks Christian, that explains it nicely. I like the aft head / cabin layout, in principle*, at least, and I like the styling cue of the rear window on those models that make it easy to spot.
*I've only been aboard one aft head/cabin boat, and that was a Hunter. But the Ericson models look great on paper...
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
I have found some photos of the TAFG and the tierods from the chainplates, but what does the connection at the bottom of those tierods, to the TAFG, look like? How susceptible are they to deterioration from moisture, and can they be inspected? The earlier plates glassed into the hull like on the 29 are a maintenance problem, but I wonder about the how the bottom of the tie rods will be after 30-40 years?

Here is a diagram of the Tie Rod Nuts in the TAFG. In the middle picture, with the holding tank removed you can see the ends of the two aluminum (AL) tie rod nuts in the TAFG (just above the lower TAFG section running athwartship (down in the pic)). In the second picture you are looking straight down under the foot of the settee berth, just outboard of the white bucket in the third picture. The stainless (SS) tie rods are threaded into the AL nuts and run perpendicular from the nuts, vertically behind the settee back to the pilot berth above. A deep TAFG section runs fore-aft directly under the tie rod attachment location and the settee seatback. The tie rods come through the deck inboard of the pilot berth and just behind the settee back on the E36RH. The TAFG is pretty deep in the E36RH, 15 inches deep in the bilge over the keel bolts.

From what I have read here on the site, the stainless tie rod can get stuck/seized to the AL tie rod nut at the bottom or the stainless U-bolt nuts can be seized to the AL block at the top of the tie rod. It all depends on how much moisture has gotten through and for how long. I haven't tried to loosen mine yet but I do have them exposed and have begun dripping PB Blaster on them for the past year when I think about it. I consider this something that will need to be inspected/repaired on any TAFG Ericson - now up to 40 years old. Any long term, near and offshore cruising without checking these parts as well as bow and stern chainplates (on top of standing rigging replacement) seems like asking for trouble to me.

Mark
 

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sgwright67

Member III
Interesting. So the tie rod "nuts" are set into a recess in the TAFG, like a furniture fastener? And the tie rods must then be rotated for removal, while "nut" remains fixed? Can you tell if the nuts are glassed in, or just inserted into a recess? The choice of aluminum is odd; it seems like asking for trouble, but maybe if they can be easily replaced, it's not such a big deal.

So in the TAFG boats, there are two areas to inspect for crevice corrosion, at each end of the tie rods, and also at the point where the U bolts enter the deck.

Thanks for the details.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Carrying the load downwards.....

Interesting. So the tie rod "nuts" are set into a recess in the TAFG, like a furniture fastener? And the tie rods must then be rotated for removal, while "nut" remains fixed? Can you tell if the nuts are glassed in, or just inserted into a recess? The choice of aluminum is odd; it seems like asking for trouble, but maybe if they can be easily replaced, it's not such a big deal.

So in the TAFG boats, there are two areas to inspect for crevice corrosion, at each end of the tie rods, and also at the point where the U bolts enter the deck.

Thanks for the details.

The lower end of the Navtec (r) SS rod is threaded into a solid aluminum round bar about an inch in diameter, or maybe more. That bar is held on each end by round holes in the FRP molded-out section that is heavily glassed to the hull in my model and also to the molded-out frame for my settee's. It is very strong. The rig stress is thereby passed down to the keel area as it should be, at the base of the mast.

IF.... that's IF.... you have a leak around the deck connection for your shroud bases and ignore it, you will indeed have water getting into the top of the threaded rod and running down to the aluminum bar below. And if this happens the two metals will form a bond that will take some special lube and a couple of swear words to separate.
You may also then find some wet coring in the adjacent deck. This is a leak never to ignore. We have never had this part leak on either side, but other owners have reported it happening. When boats (no matter who built 'em) reach beyond 20 years, it's best to re-bed everything on deck. Sealant gets old and hardened and finally stops keeping the water out.

Note that the inside SS round rod has two flats machined into it. That's to use a wrench to tighten or loosen it. (Opposite threading on each end, kind of like a turn buckle)

A great time to do your preventative maintenance on shroud bases is anytime the spar is down for maintenance -- like a re-rig. That's what I did in about 2004 when our mast was down. Yard pulled the bases off both sides -- deck penetration was dry and solid and they re-bedded both sides before stepping the spar again.

There are other related threads here and here is one with much good information.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...2-chain-plate-inspection-of-E34&referrerid=28

Added info: for a picture of the inside where the shroud load is transferred to the TAFG, look at picture #1 in this thread:
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/entry.php?688-Bulk-Head-Repair&bt=1911
 
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sgwright67

Member III
Thanks for the details, Loren. It does sound like a solid system, provided things are inspected regularly. It would be interesting to know how those SS-Al threaded sections fare after 30+ years in the cold/damp PNW/BC climate, where even without leaks, I can imagine that moist air will condense on those cold rods, and run down to the threaded ends. I suppose just turning them back and forth a few times each year would help to ensure they don't seize up.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Thanks for the details, Loren. It does sound like a solid system, provided things are inspected regularly. It would be interesting to know how those SS-Al threaded sections fare after 30+ years in the cold/damp PNW/BC climate, where even without leaks, I can imagine that moist air will condense on those cold rods, and run down to the threaded ends. I suppose just turning them back and forth a few times each year would help to ensure they don't seize up.

Every few years I pull the settee seat backs off and have a look. Always bone dry. No moisture no problem.
(It's about as damp as you can imagine, here in western Oregon on the Columbia river.)
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
Note that the inside SS round rod has two flats machined into it. That's to use a wrench to tighten or loosen it. (Opposite threading on each end, kind of like a turn buckle)

There are other related threads here and here is one with much good information.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...2-chain-plate-inspection-of-E34&referrerid=28

Loren's link above gives a great run down on the U-bolt (above deck) and aluminum tie rod top block (underdeck) issues that are often found on the TAFG boats. Note in Doug's post #46 you are looking at the top (deck side) of the aluminum block and you can see the smooth socket that the top of the tie rod fits in. The top of the tie rod has a cold formed head like the cold formed heads of rod rigging (not threaded). So bonding of the top of the tie rod to the aluminum top block is not going to be hard too separate. The bottom of the rod, however, is threaded into the cylindrical aluminum nut.

Also note from that thread that loosening the U-bolt nuts can be an issue and that it takes enlarging one of the U-bolt through deck holes to get the tie rod out of the boat.

Mark
 

sgwright67

Member III
Loren's link above gives a great run down on the U-bolt (above deck) and aluminum tie rod top block (underdeck) issues that are often found on the TAFG boats. Note in Doug's post #46 you are looking at the top (deck side) of the aluminum block and you can see the smooth socket that the top of the tie rod fits in. The top of the tie rod has a cold formed head like the cold formed heads of rod rigging (not threaded). So bonding of the top of the tie rod to the aluminum top block is not going to be hard too separate. The bottom of the rod, however, is threaded into the cylindrical aluminum nut.

Also note from that thread that loosening the U-bolt nuts can be an issue and that it takes enlarging one of the U-bolt through deck holes to get the tie rod out of the boat.

Mark

That thread Loren referenced covers it all in great detail, so I will remember this when the time comes. I am leaning toward a newer TAFG boat, but we'll see what comes along. Still zilch on the market around here.

Thanks Loren, Mark, and all for this illuminating topic.
 
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