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Ericson 29 - what to watch for?

sgwright67

Member III
Photos of E29

Here are some photos of the boat. I was concentrating on the boat, so they're not the greatest, but give me something to refer to as I gather my thoughts and come up with a list of items to check for the sea trial. The companionway hatch cover is pretty rough, but I might be able to fiberglass over it?

I can't tell how the mast is secured to the step. Does it just slip over a casting? If so, tilting it down might be a problem, unless the step is chamfered at the front/rear to allow for this.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/17dsdU0isSpNqCppbU49yA85SQsG_sEzy?usp=sharing
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Celebrating the purchase, and then come the details of ownership

While the marina you moor at is primarily concerned with "wreck removal and pollution abatement" ... and their resultant potential liability...
your first concern is insuring for the amount of $$ that will enable you to replace this exact vessel. If you can replicate it for 10K, then that should be the "agreed upon value" for a total loss payout on your policy.

And, when you do any upgrades that increase the replacement value to you, also get that insured value upgraded. Routine maintenance will not count for that, but stuff like a hull repaint, new rig, engine, or sails should.

We last bought a boat in 1994, and getting used to "big boat" ownership took a year or three! :egrin:

ps: mast base does not look like a tabernacle setup to me. You'll need to lift it straight up a couple of inches and then lay it down.
 
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supersailor

Contributing Partner
Congratulations!

Our Club has a 29 owned by the club. Nice boat. Liability insurance costs have nothing to do with the value of the boat and they will be the majority of the cost of your policy. The liability will be much the same for my boat as yours. . My boat was purchased in BC in 2013 and the insurance cost was over $1,200 then based on a $54,000 valuation.. Insured in the US, it was $473. It is expensive to live in Canada.

Most marinas now require insurance so it is an expense you gulp at and cough up for. The liability and sinking coverage you get (sinking recovery is very expensive) are worth it in themselves unless you plan to walk away from a wreck and don't care about ever having credit or material possessions ever again. At our marina we now have two masts of a fifty footer sticking out of the water while you can see the decks if the water is calm. The estimates for raising it are around $200,000. That's why the insurance might seem a little high to you.
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Re: more insurance considerations. I carry the amount of liability that the marina requires, but am too lazy to go look up exactly what that is. Half a million or something? Seems like a lot, but if you get into a situation where government contractors are cleaning up your fuel spill at science-fiction hourly rates... Anyway, the boat portion works out to around $10 a month. But since I have all these other coverages from the same company, they’ve sold me an “Umbrella Liability” policy for about $12 a month that kicks in an extra $2M if any individual liability limit is exceeded. This is a consideration more driven by the farm, but it does cover the boat as well.
It’s entirely possible that I’m being a bit gullible about all of this, but it’s a way to spread insurance over all of your potential liabilities relatively cheaply. If I was just living on the boat and had no significant assets to lose, I wouldn’t bother with it.

Oh yeah... my brother is a professional marine salvor, so if something ever happened, I probably wouldn’t even bother the insurance company about that...
 
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toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Impressions on the photos:
Looks like a few issues but also quite a few nice upgrades.
Standing rigging does not look like mine, so I’d guess it’s been replaced at least once.
Running rigging looks a little tired. And not put away very well?
At least one “soft deck” area has been repaired by the inject-epoxy-into-array-of-holes method.
Original electrical panel and light fixtures. If they work,great! But likely to be a little crude by modern standards.
FWIW, that swim ladder is a bit too short, but that’s common. You’d have to pull yourself up several rungs with your arms before you could get a foot on it.
It does look very clean, which is a good sign.
 

sgwright67

Member III
Interesting about the epoxy repairs, I didn't notice the holes, but did see the patches around several chainplates. I had wondered if the chainplates had been replaced, but more likely they just removed some of the deck to get epoxy around them I guess. The backstay chainplate almost looks like it might have failed at some point because of the large repair done around it. I will try to get a look at backstay plate and the side chainplates, as I've asked to have an hour or two with the boat before the sea trial, not that looking at them is likely to change anything on the purchase.

I'm already re-thinking the idea of trucking it home for a month or two, as doing so will make it hard to find moorage when it goes back in the water. Also, I think we will need to sail it for at least a few months before knowing if this is a longer term boat (3-5 years) or just a starter boat (1 year). I am ok with putting money into it if we're going to keep it more than a year or two. But it seems that 27-30' boats of this age are hard to sell, and anything over $10-15K sells slowly if at all (Catalina 30s and some C&Cs seem to be the exception). I doubt that even a mint E29 would fetch more than 15K around here - there is one that looks very clean for $13K that has been listed for 8 months (with A4 engine). If after some sailing, I feel like this is a boat we could take to Mexico and live aboard for a few months, then I'll be ok spending real money on it. Otherwise, we might be like everyone else and looking for a bigger boat next year. I hope not, as the search process is exhausting. Anyway, still excited about getting our first boat, even though it just started snowing again...
 

nquigley

Sustaining Member
The main pics that caught my eye were those showing corrosion on chainplate deck fittings (and evidence of apparent past repairs around them). You'll want to dig around below decks to see how strongly the chainplates are attached to an internal strongpoint (usually a bulkhead) - to see how extensive, and how good those repairs were.
I actually think parking the boat on the driveway is still your best first step - you gave lots of good reasons for that before, plus it would let you pop out of the house any spare moment you have to advance a current project a little bit, instead of putting the small things off until the next trip down to the boat in the water (then forgetting the right tools and supplies, back to the house, and back to the boat, etc). If it's on the hard in a nearby marina, that's OK too - not cheap, but always lots of free advice right at hand.
Good luck - feed us lots of progress photos ;-)
 
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supersailor

Contributing Partner
The A-4 gasoline engine seems to be the "kiss of death" around here for resale. It has some real pluses such as being smooth running, quiet, and reliable but the "gasoline explosion" perceived danger seems to be the only thing people think of. They don't seem to realize that there are millions of outboards with mickey mouse tanks running around out there with out problems. Of course, maintenance is the key. If I bought a boat with an A-4, I'd replace the fuel lines and vent line immediately. Of course, if I bought a diesel version, I'd replace the fuel lines and vent line immediately. One thing To check also. Right after I changed all the lines I had vacuum problems with the tank. It turned out the screen in the vent fitting through the stern was totally plugged. Since replacing it, I have had no problems. Diesel is an oil so it attracts dirt. Also, you may want to get a look in the tank to make sure there is no water or dirt inside. Water can be a problem. Besides clogging the filter, it has a tendency to rot the inside of the tank. Don't just add a water absorber to a contaminated tank as that will leave deposits on the bottom of the tank. In clean tanks, it's great stuff to keep water out.
 

nquigley

Sustaining Member
Thinking about the video you posted of the engine starting up...
Good points: must have strong batteries to sustain the starter motor for that long in cold conditions, and ... it started eventually.
Not so good - it took a long time to start. Was there a lot of white smoke in the exhaust after it started?
I have an M25 Universal diesel (actually a Kubota tractor engine, but that's another topic). I have been told that if I keep turning the engine over without it starting for more than about 15 seconds, there is a risk of sucking cooling water into the cylinders. I was advised that, in slow-starting situations, I should close the raw water intake seacock and then continue trying to start it. Then, as soon as it starts, go down and open the seacock. But, as with all things mechanical YMMV.
 

sgwright67

Member III
Thinking about the video you posted of the engine starting up...
Good points: must have strong batteries to sustain the starter motor for that long in cold conditions, and ... it started eventually.
Not so good - it took a long time to start. Was there a lot of white smoke in the exhaust after it started?
I have an M25 Universal diesel (actually a Kubota tractor engine, but that's another topic). I have been told that if I keep turning the engine over without it starting for more than about 15 seconds, there is a risk of sucking cooling water into the cylinders. I was advised that, in slow-starting situations, I should close the raw water intake seacock and then continue trying to start it. Then, as soon as it starts, go down and open the seacock. But, as with all things mechanical YMMV.

I was forewarned about the cold start on the MD6B, as they have no glow plugs, and the outside temps were right around 0C, so I expected some cranking. There is a compression release, which might help by speeding up the cranking, but you'd need to start from the engine itself to do this. There was a lot of white smoke, and I let it run maybe 5 minutes at a fast idle to see if it would go away, but it didn't really. To me this, suggests fouled injectors, so running some diesel purge through might help.
I think most Kubotas have glow plugs, which should make for a near instant start, but maybe some don't? Not sure about the cooling water through intake issue, but that would definitely be a killer. I guess the thinking is that if the raw water pump fills the exhaust up to the muffler loop, then the water could sneak back in via the exhaust valves. The problem with closing the seacock is you risk burning up impellers as they run dry until you can get it opened again. In thinking about it, I think it might actually be worse to stop cranking, as the water could then sneak past an open exhaust valve and hydro lock the engine when you crank it again. There must be something in the system to prevent this or this engine wouldn't have survived this long... :)

Thanks, lots to learn here!
 

sgwright67

Member III
The A-4 gasoline engine seems to be the "kiss of death" around here for resale. It has some real pluses such as being smooth running, quiet, and reliable but the "gasoline explosion" perceived danger seems to be the only thing people think of. They don't seem to realize that there are millions of outboards with mickey mouse tanks running around out there with out problems. Of course, maintenance is the key. If I bought a boat with an A-4, I'd replace the fuel lines and vent line immediately. Of course, if I bought a diesel version, I'd replace the fuel lines and vent line immediately. One thing To check also. Right after I changed all the lines I had vacuum problems with the tank. It turned out the screen in the vent fitting through the stern was totally plugged. Since replacing it, I have had no problems. Diesel is an oil so it attracts dirt. Also, you may want to get a look in the tank to make sure there is no water or dirt inside. Water can be a problem. Besides clogging the filter, it has a tendency to rot the inside of the tank. Don't just add a water absorber to a contaminated tank as that will leave deposits on the bottom of the tank. In clean tanks, it's great stuff to keep water out.

Thanks, good point about the tank, lines and vent. I will see about having a peek into the tank on Sunday. I suppose the vent must be the small throughhull up high on the transom on the port side, and the large one is a drain for aft cockpit section?
 

sgwright67

Member III
Impressions on the photos:
Looks like a few issues but also quite a few nice upgrades.
Standing rigging does not look like mine, so I’d guess it’s been replaced at least once.
Running rigging looks a little tired. And not put away very well?
At least one “soft deck” area has been repaired by the inject-epoxy-into-array-of-holes method.
Original electrical panel and light fixtures. If they work,great! But likely to be a little crude by modern standards.
FWIW, that swim ladder is a bit too short, but that’s common. You’d have to pull yourself up several rungs with your arms before you could get a foot on it.
It does look very clean, which is a good sign.

Interesting about the standing rigging differences; I am now curious if there was a failure of the backstay that might explain the big patch job there.
Curious which upgrades are not original - the heater is the main one, but most other things I thought were stock?
The swim ladder seemed fine from a dinghy, but I see your point... it'll help keep us fit! :) The electrical panel is certainly dated, and not a big fan of fuses, but if it's not all corroded on the back side, I'll leave it for now. I suspect once I get into the wiring, I won't be able to stop until it's all replaced, so I need to choose which rabbit holes I want to go down... ;)

What year is your 29? Do you have any photos of the mast base with the mast off? Curious if dropping it either at the dock, or on the trailer in the parking lot is something we can manage. The owner's manual makes it sound easy, providing you have a topping lift, which this one doesn't.
 

nquigley

Sustaining Member
The swim ladder seemed fine from a dinghy, but I see your point... it'll help keep us fit! :)
My swim ladder is also too short for easy boarding from the water - very awkward getting foot up to lowest rung, and then quite a bit of strength to hoist yourself out of the water - could be extra difficult if already tired after a long swim or if becoming hypothermic - here's my solution:
https://www.westmarine.com/buy/davis-instruments--stirrup-swim-ladder--142218?recordNum=39
 

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
Thinking about the video you posted of the engine starting up...
Good points: must have strong batteries to sustain the starter motor for that long in cold conditions, and ... it started eventually.
Not so good - it took a long time to start. Was there a lot of white smoke in the exhaust after it started?
I have an M25 Universal diesel (actually a Kubota tractor engine, but that's another topic). I have been told that if I keep turning the engine over without it starting for more than about 15 seconds, there is a risk of sucking cooling water into the cylinders. I was advised that, in slow-starting situations, I should close the raw water intake seacock and then continue trying to start it. Then, as soon as it starts, go down and open the seacock. But, as with all things mechanical YMMV.
In addition to all of these points, cranking it too long also runs the risk of overheating the starter motor.
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
Cranking too long almost always is because the glow plugs aren't energizing. After the engine has cranked for awhile , raw diesel accumulates in the exhaust. The whitish smoke is unburned diesel. The first step here is to ensure the glow plugs are energizing. With the glow plugs on, see if there is voltage at the top of the glow plugs. If yes, see if the plugs are getting hot. If not, The plug is probably bad or there is corrosion on the terminal. If no voltage, the system is not working. The most likely cause is a bad glow plug switch. I've had two go bad on Terra Nova. Also corroded ground terminals are a major cause of this type of problem. When wiring use only tinned wire and shrink fit terminals and use a dab of di-electric grease on the exposed terminals. Your problems will end.

The wiring on our Club 29 was a total disaster and I would suspect yours is not much better. After all, it is forty or so years old and probably has been added to willey nilly. I have redone the wiring on both my boats and both have become totally reliable. Before that, many four letter words were expended on both of them.

From every thing I read here, the engine sounds good and only the glow plugs need work.

Hmm. In rereading this, it sounds like your engine might not have glow plugs. If that is the case, the old truckers trick of an engine block heater will solve he winter time starting problem. All diesels are harder to start in cold weather as the diesel thickens. Perhaps a cabin heater with the engine cover removed might be enough.

Give the engine a compression test to see if it is around 20-1. If it is, the engine is sound. The injectors could be in need of rebuilding or retiming. If it does have glow plugs, they could be non functional.


If the engine has cranked for more than 30 seconds, there will be black and white smoke so don't be alarmed. It is a diesel. If it is smoking after it has warmed up, there could be a real engine problem or it could be that the injectors are injecting too much fuel and need to be rebuilt. A well maintained diesel should last from 5,000-7,000 hours before needing rebuilding. The stuff hanging off of it (injectors, glow plugs, injection pumps, fuel pumps, alternators) not so much so.

Also, as a thought, you may be under batteried so that the engine isn't spinning fast enough to easily catch.

Good luck with your troubleshooting.
 
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bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
... to go look up exactly what that is. Half a million or something?

I just looked at my policy. It doesn't break out my cost for each of the line items, but the coverages are
-- "agreed value" for the boat
-- $300k in liability coverage
-- $300k in uninsured boater coverage
-- $939,800 (there's a nice round number) for fuel or other spill liability

Bruce
 

bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
..in slow-starting situations, I should close the raw water intake seacock

I don't know nuthin' about motors (and can generally prove it), but... I can't think of how that would help keep water out of the cylinders.

The coolant loop is a closed circuit - it goes through the block, through the heat exchanger, then back into the block. Raw water is never in the block and for-sure never gets near the cylinders unless something else is badly wrong.

I'm more likely to believe that water might make it into the cylinders from the OTHER direction - excessive cranking might create some sort of siphon that pulls water backwards through the mixing elbow and into the cylinders by way of the exhaust manifold. Or something. But I don't think closing the raw-water inlet would prevent that....?

Bruce
 
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nquigley

Sustaining Member
I don't know nuthin' about motors (and can generally prove it), but... I can't think of how that would help keep water out of the cylinders.
The coolant loop is a closed circuit - it goes through the block, through the heat exchanger, then back into the block. Raw water is never in the block and for-sure never gets near the cylinders unless something else is badly wrong.
I'm more likely to believe that water might make it into the cylinders from the OTHER direction - excessive cranking might create some sort of siphon that pulls water backwards through the mixing elbow and into the cylinders by way of the exhaust manifold. Or something. But I don't think closing the raw-water inlet would prevent that....?
Bruce
Scroll to the very bottom of this article (under subheading, "Don't Keep Cranking"):
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/boating/65495389/null
If your engine's usual behavior is to start within just a few seconds of cranking, but today it doesn't start as promptly as usual, several things could be wrong. The problem is, you usually don't know for sure what the problem is so you can't tell if it will eventually start with more cranking or if you need to stop and do some research.
I know just enough about marine diesels to be dangerous, but I think the idea is that, if you stop cranking just a little after the time in which it usually starts, and you then close the cooling water intake before trying more cranking, the exhaust manifold will likely not be holding too much unexpelled water. But, if you keep cranking a lot longer (e.g., until the battery gives up, or you give up), the exhaust could, by then, be holding enough water so that some could flow back into the engine via an open exhaust port when you stop cranking, causing a possible hydrolock situation.
 

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
Scroll to the very bottom of this article (under subheading, "Don't Keep Cranking"):
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/boating/65495389/null
If your engine's usual behavior is to start within just a few seconds of cranking, but today it doesn't start as promptly as usual, several things could be wrong. The problem is, you usually don't know for sure what the problem is so you can't tell if it will eventually start with more cranking or if you need to stop and do some research.
I know just enough about marine diesels to be dangerous, but I think the idea is that, if you stop cranking just a little after the time in which it usually starts, and you then close the cooling water intake before trying more cranking, the exhaust manifold will likely not be holding too much unexpelled water. But, if you keep cranking a lot longer (e.g., until the battery gives up, or you give up), the exhaust could, by then, be holding enough water so that some could flow back into the engine via an open exhaust port when you stop cranking, causing a possible hydrolock situation.
I believe the issue is that if you keep cranking the engine without it firing, it can fill up your water lift muffler since there is no exhaust to expel the water that collects in it. At some point the lift muffler will overflow back up into the exhaust hose and then water can find its way back into the cylinder.

The solution is either: (1) keep the sea cock closed while cranking, but *immediately* open it once the engine fires (so as not to fry the impeller); or (2) open the drain plug at the bottom of the lift muffler (if it has one; many do) and simply let the water drain into the bilge and be expelled by the bilge pump.
 

sgwright67

Member III
I believe the issue is that if you keep cranking the engine without it firing, it can fill up your water lift muffler since there is no exhaust to expel the water that collects in it. At some point the lift muffler will overflow back up into the exhaust hose and then water can find its way back into the cylinder.

The solution is either: (1) keep the sea cock closed while cranking, but *immediately* open it once the engine fires (so as not to fry the impeller); or (2) open the drain plug at the bottom of the lift muffler (if it has one; many do) and simply let the water drain into the bilge and be expelled by the bilge pump.

Yes, that makes sense. The danger is when cranking is stopped long enough that water might run back into an open exhaust valve from the water lift muffler, which is quite a bit higher than the engine. Given that the current owner doesn't strike me as mechanically inclined, I suspect that this particular engine/boat combo is not prone to this issue, or it surely wouldn't have lasted this long without a hydrolock occurring.

This has been a very worthwhile discussion, and I will make a point of watching the exhaust outlet when it is started for the sea trial to see how much water is being expelled, if any. If the compression strokes from the starting cycles are enough to keep the water flowing through the system and prevent too much water from sitting in the muffler, then this may explain why the old beast is still running... :)

I have lots of experience working on various diesels since the 80s (mostly VWs, currently drive two of them), but all have had glow plugs, so this cold start w/o GPs is definitely new to me. I know that starting a VW diesel without GPs in freezing temps can take a lot longer than 30secs - I once had to use a coleman camp stove under the oilpan to get mine started when I determined the GP circuit was dead, but didn't have time to fix it...
If this engine were fresh water cooled, I would consider a hydronic heater as a means of pre-heating the engine (my Dad has this on his power boat, simple to do if you already have a domestic hot water heat exchanger). But domestic hot water is *way* down the list, so I will have to think of other ways to to deal with this. Plumbing a hot air outlet from the Espar into the engine bay is probably the easiest, assuming we go with the Espar. Even so, it will take a good amount of time to preheat the beast - after five minutes of running at a fast idle, the block and head were still cold to the touch. It is a lot of cast iron for a measly 15hp!
 
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