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Ericson 29 - what to watch for?

sgwright67

Member III
Hello,

I am considering a '76 Ericson 29, currently listed for $7500 CAD, with wheel steering, 2 cyl Volvo diesel (not original, but not new either), furler, and propane cook top and heat. I haven't seen the boat as it is a few hours away. I did view a '74 29' last year, but passed on it due to price and condition - core separation in the decks mainly. I've also looked at a 30+ but it is listed at over $20K.

I'm curious about the known weak points of the 29. I like the encapsulated keel design used by Ericson, but the longer fin feel in the 29' seems to make it a bit slower than others in its class, not that I'm too concerned as I won't be racing it. I am planning to cruise the BC coast, and possibly to Haida Gwai and around the Island at some point. My priorities are a safe, comfortable boat for a couple that can handle rough weather, but also be reasonable good in light air and to windward, which is more typical along the inside passages in the summer.

Is the 29' a good fit for this use, given my budget of $20-25K CAD? Or should I be looking at a 30+ or 32?

I like the large aft berth in the 29' but in both examples I've seen, the retrofit of a diesel has meant a modified engine cover which renders the centre portion of the bunk only useful for storage, so it's really just a single. Other boats I have considered are: C&C 26,27,30, 32, 35, Catalina 27,30, San Juan 28, 34, Columbia 36, Newport 28-2, Nicholson 31, 35 and a few others. This list has been based on what is available in my area and price range. I've seen quite a few Ericson 32s and larger, but none for sale yet. One thing the 29 appears to have in its favour, which may offset the lack of speed is the motion comfort, which rates higher than the 32, due to the high displacement and narrower beam. I'm ok giving up a bit of speed for a stiffer, more comfortable boat in rough seas.

Thanks for any tips you can offer.
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Hi,
I can speak very highly about our 1984 E30+ for the build quality, looks, but especially its ability to gain speed in light air, but also handle higher winds well - - we've sailed in 34 knot winds with reefed sails and the boat was great! That size is easy to single hand and dock, but we've also had 5 aboard for a week and 7 once for a daysail - - cozy, but manageable.
The boats you list are quite different in build quality, performance, size, cabin space and cosmetic finish (teak vs. fibreglass interiors, etc).
If you haven't done so, maybe you can prioritize your list of "desireables", determine "must haves" and determine budget. It's better usually to spend a bit more for the right boat in good condition than to buy a project fixer upper boat that takes time and money to fix with many frustrations along the way..
Good luck in your search! For your sake, I hope you find the right Ericson, but I'm a bit biased. :)
Frank
 
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sgwright67

Member III
Hi,
I can speak very highly about our 1984 E30+ for the build quality, looks, but especially its ability to gain speed in light air, but also handle higher winds well - - we've sailed in 34 knot winds with reefed sails and the boat was great! That size is easy to single hand and dock, but we've also had 5 aboard for a week and 7 once for a daysail - - cozy, but manageable.
The boats you list are quite different in build quality, performance, size, cabin space and cosmetic finish (teak vs. fibreglass interiors, etc).
If you haven't done so, maybe you can prioritize your list of "desireables", determine "must haves" and determine budget. It's better usually to spend a bit more for the right boat in good condition than to buy a project fixer upper boat that takes time and money to fix with many frustrations along the way..
Good luck in your search! For your sake, I hope you find the right Ericson, but I'm a bit biased. :)
Frank

Thanks for the reply.

I have noticed that there appear to be two interior options for the 29: one with the table mounted to the hanging locker to port (and the foot extension panel for the port settee bunk), and the other with the table mounted on the head bulkhead to starboard. I am not sure of this was a model year change, or an option, but I suspect the starboard table is a later model year change (the '76 has this, the '74 had the port side table).

As far as priorities, that is a good point. It's been a slow process of learning, and basically viewing as many boats as possible in the past 8 months, including many that I didn't list (Westsail 32, Ingrid 38, Endurance 35 and others), just to find out what I did and didn't like. There are so few boats in my area and price range that I basically viewed anything close to suitable...

Here's an attempt at breaking things down:

Budget: $15-25K CAD. Prefer to spend less to allow for upgrades such as solar, composting head, etc. But I am prepared to spend more for a boat that is exceptional and has options that we'd likely want to install ourselves.

Must haves:
Inboard diesel (or priced low enough that I could install one)
Decent galley space and layout (29 is about as small as I'd like to go)
Solid construction and suitable for cruising comfort
Easy access to foredeck

Desirables:
Wheel steering
Furling headsail
Traveller outside cockpit (cabin top or after of cockpit)
All lines led aft
Propane stove and oven
Refrigeration (easily added)
Pressure water (easily added)
Low maintenance exterior (minimal exterior teak) is a bonus, but hard to find at this age and price range. CS30 is ideal... :)

Interesting that you mention teak interior. I've looked at a lot of photos online, and it appears that some Ericsons may have used mahogany or similar woods other than teak. It's not a big deal, I'm just curious if this changed over the years. Of course, condition is more important than material used at this age. Originally I thought we preferred a U or L shaped dinette, but having seen more boats, I think in the 28-30' range, two long settees is probably more practical for us.

Thanks!
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
With the understanding that EY would customize their boats "to order" more than other builders, I am pretty sure that they were using mahogany for their stock interiors on most designs into the late 70's. By '78 or so teak was becoming popular and their started changing over. By 1980 (to use a round number) they had transitioned to teak.
I imagine that their wood shop was not really pleased at this because teak is harder on tools. :rolleyes:

But fad and fashion are powerful forces in any marketing situation.
Disclosure: I like the 'look' of teak better, but either wood finishes up nicely. And, teak looks better after exposure to sea air for years, strictly IMHO. As teak got a LOT more expensive in the 90's, most builders changed to other woods, like the pretty cherry interiors in the Tartans. And at the cheaper end of the market you now have mystery veneers that many of us distain as "Ikea" interiors.

As for internal ballast, this was common for many many boats of the era. The upside is that the ballast was inside the hull molding, and in the case of Ericson was LEAD, and not some cheaper and fluffier metal like iron.

As for in-use concerns.... the boats with internal ballast might have to check for a crack if they hit a reef hard. Boats (cheaper-built boats, and you know who they are) with bolted-on keels have to check for internal structural damage after such a grounding.

Aside: we have a local 37' H__ter that is presently having it's forward internal hull/grid structure extensively rebuild now after a 6 kt contact with a pinnacle rock last summer. The damage is insured but the yard bill is said to be closing on on 40K at this point. Fractures extended up to the chain plates, and the standing rig will be replaced also.

Contrast to that a site member who had essentially the same keel-and-rock contact with his E-34, and upon inspection later found a divot in the keel. And the rest of the boat was unharmed and unimpressed. Crew also had to have some stitches due to a bad fall into the cabin, from the sudden full-stop.

There are probably a million rocks in the NW to avoid, and groundings ("rock" - ings?) can happen to anyone on any boat.
It's just WAY better to have strong boat.

I have not sailed a 29, but did spend some quality time helping to prepare one for sale after cancer killed the owner, a friend. It had an original well-maintained A4 gas engine. I could see why builders loved that little flat-head design. it nestled quite low on its mounting beds and left more vertical room for interior accommodations.
I have, OTOH, sailed a number of evenings on an E-27. It's like a smaller version of the same hull form. Since it's always best to have more waterline, the 29 gives you that along with more interior space.

If you look thru this site, there are several E-29 members with a lot of projects reported and many years of experience.

Aside: some of the boats you mention shopping do Not have the hull-too-deck structure of the Ericson's. Having that joint glassed over with roving on the inside is a Very Good Thing.

Keep posting and let us know what you find.
:egrin:

Edit: you mention the CS-30. We looked at a Ray Wall-designed CS-27 when we were shopping in the early 80's. High quality build. We passed on it, somewhat due to budget, and settled on a Hinterhoeller Niagara 26, which we owned for a decade. Then after a long search, found the Ericson-built Olson 34. That was in '94, and we still have it.

Edit #2: There is a new E-29 article in our site d/l section.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/vbdownloads.php?do=download&downloadid=130
 
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toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
The 29 had at least two interior layouts, which I've been referring to as MkI and MkII, different galley options, and two different cockpit layouts (wheel or tiller). Plus optional tall rig or standard rig, and a couple of additional custom rigs offered from the factory. (e.g. http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/vbdownloads.php?do=download&downloadid=93)

The "MkI" layout had the passage starboard of the mast, leaving the port settee dead ended behind the hanging locker. The "head compartment" is just the passageway, closed off by two doors. Many people have got rid of one or more of these awkward doors and replaced them with curtains, or just aren't shy :egrin:. Some people have bridged over the dead-ended foot of the port settee to make a nice large chart table. But this requires finding another solution for the table. Cruising in the PNW, you will likely want a heater, and as far as I can figure, the bulkheads are about the only space available for one, so you won't want a table hanging on the bulkhead anyway.

The "MkII" layout had the passage to port of the mast, and the hanging locker sitting on top of the settee, allowing a small separate head compartment. The port settee is shortened, but IIRC, there is a hatch in the locker that you can stick your feet into, if needed. It also had a second opening hatch in the salon area for more light and ventilation.

"Issues" that come to mind are typical for old boats and include: Check the base of the compression post, hidden down in the bilge, for rot. Probably can't get your head in there, but it's easy to stick a smartphone in. Original sea cocks were just gate valves which may or may not have been replaced. Original chainplates were glassed into the hull and cannot be inspected, so many people have switched to external chainplates when they couldn't stand the risk anymore. Original wiring was pretty primitive (and some of it was glassed into the hull) and subsequent owners may or may not have done a good job maintaining or replacing it. None of the deck hardware was "potted" or had adequate backing plates, so it likely all needs reinstallation and rebedding (if it hasn't been) and likely some core rot around those areas. The after part of the keel is hollow and subject to damage, though many owners have filled in the sump with - something - e.g. concrete or epoxy which may or may not include additional lead ballast. All of the "furniture" tends to be on the port side, so unless tankage and cargo is arranged mostly to starboard, there may be a pronounced list to port at rest. No real provision for anchoring but there is a large fore-peak locker, so owners may have installed bow rollers, hawse pipes, windlasses, etc. Or not. Original bow cleats have no backing plates, so need reinforcement for anchoring.

Tankage is said to be inadequate for cruising, but it's easy to get bladder tanks (for water & waste) into the bilge, the area under the quarter berth, and the V-berth lockers. Off-the-shelf rectangular tanks have been hacked into those spaces but don't really fit.

One of the really nice features about the E29 is the open space in the salon and quarter berth, which makes it seem larger than it is. My boat came with the raised engine compartment, but this was mostly to accommodate the freshwater cooling. I was able to make it flush again by moving the heat exchanger to the sail locker (along with a water heater I installed there, and the stand-pipe exhaust, so it sort of makes sense.) This may not be possible with a diesel, but you might make up the difference by customizing the q-berth cushions. However, even with the engine cover flat, if you put a 4-inch mattress in there, the overhead is very close on the in-side of the q-berth. OK to stick your legs under, but if two people sleep in there, one of them better not be claustrophobic, (or be very small). And you may have to move the ladder for the night. On the other hand, if you abandon that side of the berth, it makes quite a large cargo area (add folding d-rings under the mattress for tie-downs.) If you don't need two sea berths, it's possible to further nibble away at the port settee, and make a U-shaped galley similar to that of an E31, but again beware adding unbalanced weight to port.
 

sgwright67

Member III
Thanks for all the info on interior layouts. Seems like both layouts have their weaknesses.

As for the heater, the boat I am looking at has a new propane dickinson, but it appears to be mounted above table height, and i can see metal brackets where a table attaches. I've asked to see more photos before I take a ferry to view this boat. Current owner less than one year, and before that, only 6 weeks, plus it is on a mooring buoy, which may suggest less than stellar maintenance. Ad mentions some leaks, so I am expecting the decks will be soggy. This was the case with the last 29 I viewed, and it had seen pretty good maintenance.

Speaking of heaters, I am planning to ask in a general thread on this, as I have an Espar D2 waiting to install in my van, which may just end up in the boat instead. Advantage is they can be installed in cockpit locker and ducted to the cabin. Of course, power is needed, but not a lot.

The owner of this 29 says the Volvo 2 cyl diesel (looks like an MD2 or MD2000 series) takes a minute of so of cranking on a cold start, which sounds like a lot, so I suspect low compression. I'll certainly want to try a cold start myself to judge its condition.

Thanks
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
The bulkhead-mounted propane heater keeps the boat nice and cozy, but I've found that a fan or two is needed to circulate the air, otherwise your feet get cold while your head is hot.
I've got no experience with the Espar heater, but the E29 does have a built-n duct running the length of the starboard side, just below the deck, that I am hoping will make a nice HVAC duct with a little modification. Obviously, it would be better for heat ducts to be low, but see above. And hey, it's already there. (I'm half-way through installation of a Webasto heat pump.)
There is a shorter duct on the port side, too, but I've co-opted that one to be the main electrical wiring chase.
Another option attractive for the PNW is hydronic heat from the engine - e.g. plumb an old automotive heater core into the cooling loop. Obviously only works when motoring, but it reclaims heat that you were throwing away! I haven't done this, but I used to cruise on the boat of a friend who did it. Very nice in January!
Not sure about diesel models, but with the Atomic4, the standpipe exhaust is right under the (tiller) helmsman's seat in the cockpit and keeps it nice and warm. (If it gets too warm, there's an expensive exhaust problem...)
 

sgwright67

Member III
The 29 I am considering has a newer Dickinson propane heater, but I will likely replace it with an Espar D2 or similar, if we end up with the boat, as I'd prefer to maximize the run time on propane and use it only for cooking. The Espar units have the advantage of bringing fresh air in, helping to reduce humidity.

I'm hoping to view the boat this week, and given that the owner admits there are some leaks (hasn't said where, but I suspect windows and chainplates), I may be dealing with deck core problems. I may also need to consider going with external chainplates, but I will post these questions in another thread...

Thanks to all who have provided some great info so far!
 

paul culver

Member III
At some point you should get a look at the hull for blistering which I have on my 1977 E29. There is a lot of back and forth about how much of a concern blistering is, and a saying that blisters sink more boat sales than they do sail boats.

Paul
 

sgwright67

Member III
At some point you should get a look at the hull for blistering which I have on my 1977 E29. There is a lot of back and forth about how much of a concern blistering is, and a saying that blisters sink more boat sales than they do sail boats.

Paul

Thanks for the tip. I've actually seen a survey from 2014 on this boat that indicates no blisters, and only some minor core separation/saturation around the chainplates, so I'm optimistic that it is still in good shape. Just waiting to arrange a viewing, but really hoping to be a new Ericson owner soon! :)
 

sgwright67

Member III
Finally viewing the E29 tomorrow

It will be a month to the day since I first posted this tomorrow, when we plan to view the boat; it seems a lot longer!

If all goes well, we will make an offer subject to survey, and then set out to find a good surveyor in Nanaimo area, and plan to have boat hauled at Silva Bay. At this time of year, things move slowly, and the forecast calls for more snow...

Already looking ahead to how we get the boat home to Cowichan Bay, assuming we can find moorage, which will probably be a 2 day journey from Silva Bay.
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Cool.

This might be putting the cart before the horse but thinking of a two-day trip on an unfamiliar boat...
If it has been sitting or not used much for awhile, all maintenance items are suspect. Even if the engine runs well, all the rubber bits might be worn out and ready to shred on the first prolonged use. Impellers, belts, hoses, filters, old dirty fuel at the bottom of the tank... If they can't show you in the log where these things were recently changed, figure on doing it preemptively. Same for bilge pumps, macerators and other mechanical bits. If it's a critical system, one might need to have a rebuild kit on hand. How old are the batteries? They might be fine as long as they're plugged into the charger every night but not have enough capacity for a night at anchor. Running rigging that "might get by for one more season"... might not. Well... hopefully you are looking at a much fresher boat than I was, but... been there done that.

Well, those things are down the road a bit, but worth taking a look at while you're there.
 

sgwright67

Member III
The boat's on a mooring buoy on Gabriola Island, so not easy to get to from here. Even getting it to Silva Bay requires going through Gabriola Pass with current up to 8 knots, but it is the closest place for a haulout. I won't be rushing the trip, that's for sure. Assuming it goes well, we could also move it to Ladysmith, which is maybe 3-4 hours away under power.

Good advice on checking engine and spares, I will do so, thanks. The boat was owned by a member here until last year, and was actively sailed last season also, so things *should* be ok, but I won't be making any assumptions.
 

TimTimmeh

Member II
My current boat was a bit of a distance from a haul out, about 30 miles sail. It really is in the sellers best interest to help deliver the boat so I just incorporated the delivery as part of the sea trial. It was a great way to introduce yourself to the boat with the current owner on-board. It really is a very easy day sail to go from Silva - Cowichan Bay, or even better from Dengen bay. If I were you I would see if the seller will sail her with you to Maple Bay or Ladysmith for the haulout, not Silva, because then if you go through with the purchase, you can put her on the hard and do the bottom/zincs whatever else without having to pay for another haul-out near home.

As for surveyors, i can't think of many very good ones, but I can think of a pretty bad one, PM me if you want to know who to avoid and why.
 

sgwright67

Member III
That sounds like a great idea of combining the sea trial with a trip to a haul out that is enroute to the new home port, instead of the wrong way through the Gabriola Pass whirlpool...

The owner mentioned that Silva Bay may be closed down at the moment, so Ladysmith or Maple Bay may be a better option anyway, and I like the idea of leaving it on the hard for a few days to replace zincs.

I'll PM you about the surveyors...

Thanks!
 

sgwright67

Member III
Just got back from viewing the E29. Overall a good impression, although not as good as hoped for. The boat is fairly clean and in fair to good overall condition. However, a few things done by the current owner show a lack of basic skills or boating knowledge, such as attached a rigid solar panel to the top of the canvas dodger, with screws through the canvas into 2x4" scraps of plywood at each corner, and hastily installed plywood shelves in the hanging locker. I am amazed that the dodger/solar panel survived the recent storms where several boats ended up on the beach! They were also several items which didn't work - bathroom light, which caused a large enough current draw that I could hear the propane heater fan slow down when switched on, and the galley sink pump. Both were said to work fine in the summer. I got the impression the current owner has done very little with the boat since getting it, and what he did do was sub-standard. Fortunately, no major hacks or gaping holes that would be hard to fix.

The mainsail looked good, original E29 logo, but in very good shape, and went up/down smoothly. The quite new 140 genoa on furler looked good but some stitching on the coloured UV edging is coming undone, so it will need to be re-stitched. The dinghy is junk, a 10' fiberglass far too large to be hauled on deck (and not the one in photo), but the 6hp 2 stroke OB apparently works. I forgot to look at winches but they are original. The boom is missing a topping lift. Lifelines are plasticoated and need replacement, and standing rigging is probably original. The Volvo MD6B took maybe 30 seconds to start at about 2C, with lots of smoke, but was very quiet when running. It also seemed to take a long time to warm up, and continued to give grey/white smoke after several minutes, which suggests injectors may be bad, and/or t-stat is not working.

I ended up giving an offer $1500 below asking price, conditional on a survey and sea trial. After thinking about it, if they accept or counter the offer (or actually call me back - they have been slow to communicate with), I will probably forego the survey, and just do a sea trial, then sail/motor it home, have it hauled onto a trailer ($450) and brought to my driveway for a few months. The $900 spent on trailering will be offset by not paying for a haulout, and moorage at $300/mo, and also save a ton of time and fuel driving to the marina every day...

At the very least, I would replace running & standing rigging (maybe use old wire for lifelines?), clean up questionable electrical, fix leaking windows, service winches, steering, etc. Depending on how they look, the chainplates may need replacement also.

A lot of work, yes, but the boat seems solid, with decent sails, *ok* engine, and it's cheap. I've only looked at one boat so far that was in sail away condition, a C&C 30-1 for $25K, and even that one had some questions like unknown standing rigging age. Many boats even at $20K+ still needed a lot of work done, so if I get this one for $7K, add $3-5K (or more) for upgrades, at least I know where I stand on those items, instead of wondering if the mast will come down in a blow.

All in all, a frustrating day after waiting a month to even see this boat, but if we get it, I look forward to getting started on cleaning it up.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Sounds to me like youʻre familiar with this stuff, done impressive diligence, the subject boat is far under your theoretical budget, and you can work on it at home. That last part changes everything.

You know how surveys work--most marinas require them, if you ever intend a slip. So thereʻs that.

1976 was a while ago. Everything will need to be changed, but not all at once.
 

sgwright67

Member III
Sounds to me like youʻre familiar with this stuff, done impressive diligence, the subject boat is far under your theoretical budget, and you can work on it at home. That last part changes everything.

You know how surveys work--most marinas require them, if you ever intend a slip. So thereʻs that.

1976 was a while ago. Everything will need to be changed, but not all at once.

Thanks, Christian. I might still require a survey for insurance, since the marina (the only one nearby with a 30' slip available) will probably want insurance, although they haven't mentioned it yet. Checking with the insurance agent revealed that they will want verification that all deficiencies noted on a survey are dealt with before they insure it. So I'm thinking that I will try to address the issues I already know about, then get the survey done to catch things I may have missed. I don't think deck core softness must be dealt with, but I could be wrong. Although I know the survey from 2014 showed soft decks, I didn't notice anything obvious, unlike some boats I've been on where the decks creaked like an abandoned house.
But this could all be academic at this point, if we don't get the boat...
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
FWIW, Both marinas I’ve been in have wanted proof of liability insurance, but I have never been required to have a survey for that. Why would you need more insurance than that for a cheap old boat? Other than maybe Sea-Tow or the like. I just had the coverage added in to my grotesquely large farm/home/vehicle policy, where it is merely a drop in the bucket. There may have been some note from the underwriter about where I’m allowed to sail, but I haven’t seen it in years. I suppose I should check that one of these days.

Do print out a copy of the declarations page of your policy and keep it on board with the ships papers. Some marinas want to see proof of insurance even for an overnight stay.
 

sgwright67

Member III
Sea trial!

Thanks, Toddster. I will look into liability insurance. I was quoted $370 for complete coverage, which seems high for a boat valued at $10k, but insurance always seems too high. It is time to renew house insurance so I will shop it around and see about adding a rider to that for liability.

We now have an accepted offer over the phone, with a sea trial arranged on the weekend. Because of the hassle in getting to the boat, I'm tempted to carry a pocket of cash and just sail it away after the trial, but that might be getting ahead of myself, since daylight hours are limited. More likely we'll make a 3rd trip if the sea trial doesn't reveal anything of concern.

I'm also re-thinking the plan of putting it on the hard right away, due to the shortage of moorage around here. There is one slip available now, but in April, things will likely be different, and we might end up stuck without moorage. There are a lot of boats on private moorings buoys, so I might also look into that if I can find someone to drop a suitably large chunk of concrete in the water...

One wrinkle with getting the local guy to haul the boat home is how and where to unstep the mast, with the boat in the water, probably with guest moorage. I will have to call the movers back and determine if they are capable of unstepping the mast once it's on the trailer. (at a public boat launch in Cowichan Bay). I can't recall what the mast step looked like, and whether it will allow for a controlled lowering using winches. Can I use lines attached to halyards off the genoa tracks moved all the way aft, and lower it with the genoa winches?

We might end up getting a month's moorage so we can figure this stuff out and decide if a haulout is the best option, or to just sail it a season and address what we can in the water.

At least it feels like we're moving forward now! :)

Thanks
 
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