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How do you Remove Head Hoses? [Master Thread]

Geoff W.

Makes Up For It With Enthusiasm
Blogs Author
Hi folks,

Early year project is to replace all the head hoses and replace the PHII pump. My system currently runs from the head to the Y valve underneath the sink, and then out towards the hull, forward to the holding tank in the port V-berth. The deck fitting hose runs out from the holding tank, up to the deck fitting that looks to be behind a bulkhead or other wall. I can't make out how I would get to it for replacement - what's the usual process with this?

For the Y-Valve -> Holding Tank hose, would I just undo it from the Y-Valve, gorilla tape the new hose, and push it through up and out of the V-Berth?
For the Holding Tank -> Deck Fitting hose, how do I replace the hose at the Deck Fitting end?

Any other weird bends or things behind walls/bulkheads I'm going to have to look out for?
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
When I did that years ago I removed the entire deck fitting and pulled the hose out, attached.

New hose, new deck fitting attached, and snake it down the reverse of how it came out.
 

kapnkd

kapnkd
Hi folks,

Early year project is to replace all the head hoses and replace the PHII pump. My system currently runs from the head to the Y valve underneath the sink, and then out towards the hull, forward to the holding tank in the port V-berth. The deck fitting hose runs out from the holding tank, up to the deck fitting that looks to be behind a bulkhead or other wall. I can't make out how I would get to it for replacement - what's the usual process with this?

For the Y-Valve -> Holding Tank hose, would I just undo it from the Y-Valve, gorilla tape the new hose, and push it through up and out of the V-Berth?
For the Holding Tank -> Deck Fitting hose, how do I replace the hose at the Deck Fitting end?

Any other weird bends or things behind walls/bulkheads I'm going to have to look out for?


Head hoses are a special breed of “wild animal” with a mind of their own regardless of which model/size boat it is! Extreme patience, a serious sense of humor and perseverance are an absolute necessity in dealing with any and all work endeavors! Seems the “ID” sizes of whatever you try to cobble up are difficult to match no matter what you attempt to do.

Reading your postings, I sympathize now that I have (finally) finished mine. There really should be some sort of merit badge for all of this we endured and hopefully survived
(Most certainly I came up with more “four letter sailor words” than for any other project I’ve ever had!)
 
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Tin Kicker

Sustaining Member
Moderator
Removing head components

The short answer is with a Multimax. https://www.dremel.com/en_US/products/-/show-product/tools/multi-max-mm30

The longer answer is that to replace the drain line would require pulling the holding tank to get to the lower fitting, and you do NOT want to open that in the boat!

My new to me 32-3 came with the classic aroma of eu-de-toilette mixed with anti-freeze, but the head and cabinet area were clean. Peeking past the holding tank, it was clear there had been some amount of leakage in the compartment beneath the v-berth. I decided to remove the whole system and go to a composting toilet so here's how I just did it.

All of the head-related hoses were hardened, including the big head hoses. The lower one is impossible to get to with the tank installed. Even if the hoses could be removed from the fittings, they were too hard to allow enough flex to pull through and out. Strategically, now that it is January and near freezing is the absolute best time to remove the system because the smell and humidity are far less than when summer comes.
20190125_163206-L.jpg


The boat is on stands and nothing available to pump the tank contents, so I drained the little which would come out. To remove the holding tank requires removal of the large white panel under the V berth and removal of the two braces at the ends of the screwdriver. I tried to just remove the braces and cut the hoses, but the bottom of the tank won't allow it to rotate up through the hole.

Since I plan to use the area of the holding tank as a storage locker, the panel only took a single cut to remove the portion of the panel which covers the holding tank, plus removing the screws along the outboard edge, and cutting the silicone sealer along the panel edges. (See last photo) At that point, there are still screws which come upward from a support that is attached to the bulkhead which is the head wall. I am replacing the panel anyway, so pulled up on the forward edge, pulling the screws out of the panel. I don't think you could get down there with a screwdriver to save the panel.

Once the panel is out and the hoses are cut, you are just dead lifting the tank and a few gallons of remnants which is not too hard. Those big hoses are a steel wire spiral wrapped construction, so the MultiMax was used till cutting the wires with a pair of dykes. As you can see, it was the lower fitting on mine which was leaking, so the tank had to come out anyway.
20190125_172258-L.jpg


Under the head sink, the MultiMax is also the fastest way to get the hardened overboard hose off of the Y valve, leaving enough length to grab to get the remaining hose off the shut-off.

Final observation:
Without the tank, it was good to see the tabbing of the bulkhead was in good shape. However, I'm still trying to understand flow beneath the sub-floor grid of this boat. From here, the flow has to get to the bilge, but the grid beneath the head is in the way. My guess to this point is there is enough room under/around the grid to get to the bilge pump and keel bolts.

Look at all the new-found storage space!
20190125_174324-L.jpg


Good luck with yours.
 
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KanH

Member II
One tip from having done this on two different boats: diapers!

My experience, and from others who have done this, is that there always "water" of some kind hiding somewhere in the hoses.

Tape is fine but it isn't fool proof and surely not absorbent.
 

Tin Kicker

Sustaining Member
Moderator
Agreed. btw -This was kinda "special" to find. The thru-hull handles were arranged so that one or the other could not be full shut if you wanted both to be closed!
:0 :confused:
I can't imagine who would put this in and leave them.
20190127_152340-L.jpg
 

Geoff W.

Makes Up For It With Enthusiasm
Blogs Author
Tin Kicker, looking at the way your lower fitting comes up, it seems like it might be a huge PITA but not impossible to change the hose on the lower fitting? Mine isn't leaking, but that does seem like one of the more important hoses to get switched out. Even if I took the holding tank out to put the new hose on outside the boat, then I'd be trying to snake the new hose up through the walls and out the deck fitting rather than the other direction, which seems easier.

I might have had an actual liveaboard slip open up for me in the next month or two so this project just jumped off the "keep talking about doing it" pile and into the "actually friggin do it" pile. I'll also be replacing the whole PHII pump assembly...mine is leaking and shitty (no pun intended) and has already been rebuilt 3 times, seems like I may as well just swap it out.
 

Tin Kicker

Sustaining Member
Moderator
Hi Geoff -

If you mean that the hose could have been simply replaced if the seacock remained, yes, it could have been. I've become a believer in composting toilets and so the lower/bigger seacock and thru-hull will be removed and glassed over. The upper one is the drain for the sink and I plan to leave it.

Congrats on the live aboard opportunity.

Bob / TK
 

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
On removing difficult hoses: just remembered this from when I took my starboard water tank out. If there's not enough room to get a good grip on the hose (to pull it off the barbed fitting) don't bother pulling it off the barb--just get a wrench on the threaded side of the fitting and remove the whole fitting with the hose still attached. The barbed end will just rotate around inside the hose once you loosen the hose clamps and break the seal. After the fittings is outof the tank, you can pull the hose and the fitting out together, take it somewhere where you have more room, and then work the barb out of the hose.

Granted, it's a ittle messier with a waste hose than a water hose.....
 

BillyT

Junior Member
An obvious tip with all hose removals/replacements is to heat them up with a heat gun to soften them up. I was recently told this (being a slow learner of the bleeding obvious) and it changed my life, or at the very least allowed me to change my hoses:).

Bill
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Heat, in moderation, will help get the new hose on the barb. Use some lube, also. Jokes about KY aside, - and it is indeed a good product for this, you can use silicone sealant to encourage the new hose onto a fitting.. it's also really slippery stuff.

Remove the old hose by cutting with a sharp knife blade -- you're just going to throw it away anyhow. Wear vinyl gloves, as well.
"Been there, done that"
:0
 

Tin Kicker

Sustaining Member
Moderator
Just adding a photo for others who need to remove/replace hoses in a E32-3. This is the bottom of the deck fitting to show the two clamps which must be removed before the deck fitting can be removed. I could not just remove the 4 screws on the deck and pull the hose up, as the hole is not large enough for the clamps to come through. Access is through the medicine cabinet front wall plus opening the vinyl headliner.

Once the deck fitting was removed, the rubber gasket was found hardened, allowing water to leak past the fitting, run down the space shown in the photo, and then to the bilge.

The small hose is a breather vent for the holding tank. The hose looks like it was clear soft vinyl 34 years ago but it was hardened black plastic when removed. It is just open to the space behind the rear wall of the medicine cabinet.

20190210_154828-L.jpg
 
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Geoff W.

Makes Up For It With Enthusiasm
Blogs Author
Maybe dumb question here Tin Kicker, but where on the boat do you get access to those hoses/the deck fitting from underneath?
 

Tin Kicker

Sustaining Member
Moderator
Above the toilet, the forward wall of the medicine cabinet has to come out. It doesn't come easily. This photo is directly behind the 110V plug.
 

Geoff W.

Makes Up For It With Enthusiasm
Blogs Author
Alright, I just got confirmation that I have a liveaboard slip coming available in March, so I'll be getting my proverbial and literal shit together for a move in April. This project is now happening...ideally by the end of the month. I'll consider it a birthday present to myself...yeah...

So tooling around a few of the other excellent plumbing overhaul threads on this site (Loren's was especially good) I'm seeing this is not only an opportunity to replace old hoses, but to improve the way the entire system functions. I'm not sure that my current setup is ideal at all, and after inspecting a few other setups, I'm pretty sure it's not.

I've sadly only taken bad pictures of the setup so far, as the whole area grosses me out and I haven't wanted to spend time there. Time to suck it up. Gross head pictures coming up, and then a number of questions.


This is kind of a rough picture of the entire gnarly under-sink situation.
IMG_20180910_183519.jpg

Just a pic of the PHII pump with the rusty, gnarly intake hose going to it
MVIMG_20180910_183503.jpg

This is the tank up and out to the deck fitting / overboard.
IMG_20190208_115308.jpg

So looking at all this, there are a number glaring issues that need to get remedied.

1. The PHII pump itself leaks. I have a sneaking suspicion this is the primary source of the head smell in the bathroom.
2. The raw water intake hose to the PHII pump is basically disintegrating, it's rusty, cracked, etc.
3. No vented loop from the PHII pump water to the bowl, it's maybe 2 feet of hose.
4. Long run of white sanitation hose from PHII pump to Y valve seems suboptimal.
5. Y valve is probably old and gnarly at this point.
6. Holding tank compartment looks pretty gross. And why is the hole there, to give the tank hose room to sit? Was that the best option?
7. The entire under sink area looks pretty messed up. Dirty, is the black stuff mold? Is the white stuff on the hoses salt, or calcium, or mildew or something else?

So I'm open to some sage advice on what can be done here, but my basic ideas are as follows:

1. Replace the PHII pump assembly entirely. I think it's been rebuilt 3 or so times, I'm just going to start fresh.
2. Replace all the hoses. All of them. Except the soap hand pump tube, that looks fine.
3. There has to be a way to optimize the Y valve situation more. Like have the toilet go straight to the holding tank, then have the Y valve be between the overboard thru-hull and the deck fitting for pump out.
4. Maybe replace the Y valve - I never considered the back pressure of the holding tank pushing back into the system while heeled over, but that seems like something to avoid.
5. Considering a new holding tank. Is there a ready-made Raritan tank that anyone would recommend? I should pull the old one at the very least to scour the compartment it's been sitting in.
6. I know there's an easy upgrade here, having the sink drain go to the raw water intake, right? Is that done with a T-fitting connecting all three together?
7. With all the hoses out, clean the bejeezus out of the under-sink area. After it's been cleaned thoroughly, could I do something like paint the whole area with Bilge Kote to seal in any lingering demons and give the area more of a sterile look instead of "unkempt latrine."

Thanks for any tips and sorry you had to look at pictures of my gross head.
 
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Baslin

Member III
This Tool is invaluable when it comes to removing hoses. Start Working the hose loose, spray some WD-40 in between the hose and barb. Keep working the tool in and around the hose and twist the hose with your hand if you can......With hoses that need to be reused, be careful not to puncture a hole in them.
s-l640.jpg
 

Tin Kicker

Sustaining Member
Moderator
Geoff -

My system is 100% gone, to be replaced by a composting toilet so I don't know enough to be of help on rebuilding the toilet itself.

With the age, it's an easy guess that every seal is hardened and a candidate for replacement. If the Y valve and other fittings don't leak you probably could just clean them with Simple Green (or similar) and re-use.

Mine did not have the hole next to the holding tank. I'd guess that some previous owner did that to try to change the hose or fitting. I would not try to change them in the boat with any confidence that the leak/weep was stopped. Further, if there's been a leak or if anything comes out when you pull the old hose, you'll still have a smelly puddle under the tank. You can see the wet bottom of my tank and the semi-dried puddle that was beneath it. I'd totally agree with removing the tank and cleaning beneath it.

After you (1) cut the hoses and (2) cut the plywood board over the tank as shown in my photo, the tank can be rotated slightly and lifted out. Once cleaned, I don't see why you would need to replace the plastic holding tank unless it has physical damage.

You will need to remove the tank to change the big hoses anyway, as they will be hardened and stiff. It's easy to get them to rotate on the fittings, but they do not want to slip off after becoming hardened with the internal steel wire. Since mine were coming out permanently, I just cut the hoses with the MultiMax. This did damage the plastic fittings.

Didn't have a desire to taste the black or white stuff. ;)

Simple Green worked well for cleaning the under sink and holding tank areas, and I don't think you'll need to use bilge coat once finished with an intensive cleaning operation. Somebody else mentioned using the cheap disposable diapers and that was a really great idea.

Glad you are also doing this in the cold rather than in a warm and humid summer.

Good luck,

Bob / TK
 
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Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
How does your sink drain/empty if it is not tee-d into the water intake for the head?
 
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