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Diaphragm pump under helmsman's seat - stupid idea?

supersailor

Contributing Partner
Frank,

I left the bilge pump alone. It is located in the second compartment behind the mast and does an excellent job of emptying the bilge. The diaphragm pump is in the engine compartment. I rewired the shower pump so that it kicks in any time there is water in The shower sump which is right about when the water almost reaches the floor board level. The 110v pool pump is on a stand under the sink that is about halfway up the bilge. This way the bilge pump takes care of the day to day accumulation and The other two only trip on if there is a more major inflow.

Of course, the 110v pump only works when the boat is in the marina plugged in. But that is the time you need it when you are gone and only the angels are watching your boat. the rather extreme flow coming out the stern from the AC pump would signal to anyone on the dock that there is a problem.

You don't want to have all the pumps kicking in at once for minor water intrusion, hence the staggered heights.

I took the hot line off the shower sump switch and added a breaker to the panel. That means the two pumps are independent so if one faults, the other still works. The 110v pump is on it's own circuit.

I'll write you a private message on my problems. the Forum is not the place to discuss those matters.
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Thanks for this additional information, Bob. I'll have to think about whether I add an additional pump like that - - it seems the list never ends, but I recognize that some things take priority for obvious reasons!
Frank
 

bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
I ran heavy wires, with an in-line fuse, direct from pump to the battery posts.

Thanks, Christian! I'm doing a conveniently-located water-witch "panel" at the same time, and if I understand their wiring diagram correctly I should run directly from battery post to the panel input... and then from the panel to the pump. I suspect that's what you did, too.

panel wiring.jpg

What I haven't sorted out in my head is WHICH battery to connect it to. At present, the centrifugal wired through the panel has the ability to be powered by #1, #2 or both. After equalizing my batteries last winter, I'm sort of in the mode of using #1 as the start/house battery and #2 as reserve in odd-numbered months, and the opposite in even-numbered months. If I wire the bilge pump directly to a battery, I... lose a layer of flexibility, but I'm not sure that matters a lot.

... if you decide to wire it directly to the battery in some way, think carefully about what kind of switch you use in the bilge.

Good point. I'm planning to use a "water-witch" rather than a float switch. The conveniently-located panel will give me on/off/auto controls, so I don't need to go thru a breaker on the panel in order to turn off the system while sailing (if I want), and to be able to manually turn on the pump if I want to suck water out on demand.

...in some cases redundancy can be a good thing.

I'm with you. This project is about having a more-capable automatic bilge-pump than the centrifugal that's there now. I've tested the new diaphragm with the 3/4" hose Jabsco specifies, and am getting 6-7 gpm out the end of the hose (5-gallon bucket in about 45 seconds)... which is a HUGE improvement over the centrifugal (the Jabsco is rated for 8gpm, but I expected less than that given the length and lift of the run). 6gpm is not nearly enough to save the boat in an event like Bob had, but should be more than enough to handle "normal" amounts of ingress.

In parallel, I'm "thinking" (?) about leaving the old centrifugal in place, with its existing wiring, connecting it to the hose that runs through the same area for the shower-sump. The centrifugal only comes on when there is about 4" of water in the bilge, because it sits on top of the keel bolts, but... the wiring is already there, the plumbing is already there, and it wouldn't hurt anything to leave it, just for a layer of redundancy... the diaphragm will come on when there's a half-inch of water in the bilge, the centrifugal would add it's effort when there's 4" in the bilge. Hmmm. Dunno.

(Oh, and I have the Whale "Titan" manual bilge pump, too, which moves a good volume of water through a separate plumbing path, so that's also a layer of redundancy, at least when there is someone on the boat)

...I also added a 110v Rule pool pump.

Interesting. I have a 120v utility pump that I've used to move water out of the boat on occasion, but hadn't thought about mounting it and leaving it "live" when I'm not on the boat. Since (because of work travel) I'm often away from the boat for a week at a time, that's something to ponder. What did you use for a switch? Does Rule make a 120V float switch or something?

Bruce
 
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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Maybe I missed it in the diagram, but you have to have a fuse/breaker for that circuit, close to the battery. I seem to recall this distance as 7 inches or near to that.
 

bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
you have to have a fuse/breaker for that circuit, close to the battery.

Definitely. That switch-panel has a blade-type fuse in it, but I plan to also put an inline fuse at the battery end of the wire.

I may also put an inline fuse between the panel and the pump. Not sure if necessary, but I can't think of a downside to doing it, and given that that wire-run will be carrying all the load of the pump, it... seems like a good idea.
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
Oh. ! and most important, check the pumps monthly to see if they are working. The bilge pump on Terra Nova did not when I bought her. You can plan the best installation ever and it can be rendered useless by a corroded electrical terminal. A little pat of dielectric grease helps keep the corrosion at bay. I use shrink fit terminals on all connections. No corrosion inside the fitting. In this case, the marine terminals are better than the auto shop terminals.

Religiously check the pumps each month to be sure they work. A boat with no pumps is in grave danger. Terra Nova's pump was not functioning when I purchased her. Corroded ground wire. Several friends checked their boats and one also found a non-functioning pump. The issue was also electrical. When you are out there in 6' seas and the boat is pitching like a bronco is not the time to be troubleshooting your pump to see why it's not sucking out the inflowing water. The manual pump is effective but very tiring. :rolleyes:

Happy and safe sailing.
 
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bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
check the pumps monthly to see if they are working.

That's a great point, and actually part of the motivation for me to re-do this. In the 3 years I've had Makana, there's never been enough water in the bilge to trigger the auto-centrifugal. I know the motor runs because if you pull it out and turn it upside down it buzzes. But does it move water? No way to know... I actually ran a hose into the boat at one point and filled the bilge, *just* to see if it pushed water out. (it did) But short of that exercise, there's real way to test an automatic/centrifugal system end-to-end without enough water in the bilge to trigger the internal float switch.

As an aside, I also found that my manual bilge pump didn't work. I could move the handle and it didn't seem to move anything, not even air. I was girding up for the effort to crawl into that space to unbolt the pump and replace it when a friend told me that it was possible the flapper-valves were just dry... so I cobbled together a way to move some water up into the pump, activated the handle a few times, and lo-and-behold, it started pumping water. I've tested it at least once a month ever since - I have no idea if there is a long-term issue, but I figure using it frequently will keep it from "going dry", and I do know that it's moved water quite nicely ever since then.

Bruce
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
That's a great point, and actually part of the motivation for me to re-do this. In the 3 years I've had Makana, there's never been enough water in the bilge to trigger the auto-centrifugal. I know the motor runs because if you pull it out and turn it upside down it buzzes. But does it move water? No way to know... I actually ran a hose into the boat at one point and filled the bilge, *just* to see if it pushed water out. (it did) But short of that exercise, there's real way to test an automatic/centrifugal system end-to-end without enough water in the bilge to trigger the internal float switch.

As an aside, I also found that my manual bilge pump didn't work. I could move the handle and it didn't seem to move anything, not even air. I was girding up for the effort to crawl into that space to unbolt the pump and replace it when a friend told me that it was possible the flapper-valves were just dry... so I cobbled together a way to move some water up into the pump, activated the handle a few times, and lo-and-behold, it started pumping water. I've tested it at least once a month ever since - I have no idea if there is a long-term issue, but I figure using it frequently will keep it from "going dry", and I do know that it's moved water quite nicely ever since then.

Bruce

Those rubber check valve pieces in my old Whale pump (cockpit) had gotten hard and nearly brittle after decades. I replaced the whole pump after giving up on getting those "flappers" out due to the inside ss attachment screws welding themselves into the aluminum pump housing.
Even if you get them to work while at the dock, do not assume that they will also work in an emergency. :0

I did a blog entry about that and the task of replacing the 1988 bilge pumping hoses. Not really difficult, but tedious.
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
The Rule 1800 pool pump has a sensor built into it that checks for water every 2 1/2 minutes or so. It also gives the shaft a little spin so it doesn't freeze up from lack of use.
 

bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
Even if you get them to work while at the dock, do not assume that they will also work in an emergency. :0.

Fair point.

My situation may have been an anomaly - the pump itself was relatively new (installed 2010, IIRC) and all the parts I could see and get to were soft/pliable/not brittle. For whatever reason it wasn't pulling water (my failing - I never thought to exercise it, so between the time the surveyor tested it, and the time I thought to try it, well over a year went by),

As soon as some water got to it, it started pumping... and has continued (so far).

Main point, as Bob says, be sure to test frequently because useless pumps are useless.

Bruce
 

Bolo

Contributing Partner
Bruce,
Here are a couple of pics of my bilge pump install. I used one of the existing hoses running aft, inserted the pump where the hose exits the covered channel, left the anti-siphon loop, and ran it out the thru hull. One of the features of the Whale 320 is the head unit will rotate to allow flexibility in mounting. I oriented it up and down, so the inlet is not visible in the pic. You can see the Whale strum box installed between the keel bolts, and the water witch is just silicone in place. I need to lower it a bit, it leaves about 1/2" of water in the bilge. The other hose that is zip tied to a keel bolt is coming from a Rule pump in the other bilge compartment. And yes, the pump is screwed directly to the channel cover, but you can feel underneath and verify that nothing is in the way. I am happy with the setup so far, but it is the first season, so time will tell.

Phil, I like the setup you have and the use of the Whale Gulper 320 which is rated at 5GPM as opposed to the Jabsco Shower Drain and Bilge Pump, rated at just 3GPM, that I have installed under the helm seat to drain the mast bilge. I still want to change out the centrifugal pump in the main bilge on our 32-3 (1987) to a diaphragm pump also to eliminate the "back flow" problem when the pump shuts off so I may go with the Whale Gulper because it's more efficient and cheaper.

There is an article in Dec 2018 SAIL magazine titled, "Water Woes" about bilge pumps and why the ones we have on board are probably not going to keep our boats from sinking. Its still a good article and covers mostly high volume centrifugal pumps but not a word about diaphragm pumps since they are really just for "normal" leakage I guess. To really save a boat, when there is no one on board to intervene, you're going to need a high volume centrifugal pump. I've been toying with the idea of adding a second one to the bilge but that will require additional thru hulls and a path to run it to the fitting. In the end if the hole is big enough or is allow to let water in long enough at a higher then "normal" volume it seems to me that no pump will save the boat. As soon as the batteries start to loose their charge the efficiency is reduced.
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
This is why I added a high volume AC swimming pool pump. It is not useful if the boat is not plugged into 110v power but in the marina is when you are likely to have a catastrophic problem with no one around to help with it. Outside the marina, you are likely to be aboard to deal with the problem. I now have two 12v diaphragm pumps and a pool pump on board. If she still goes down, I guess the fates have decreed that Terra Nova should not be above the water.

One of the advantages of the pool pump is, with the outlet mounted on stern, it shoots a jet of water across the water that makes it obvious to anyone on the docks that there is a problem here.
 

Pnelson

Member I
I haven’t given much (enough?) thought to the boat sinking. All of the problems I have seen are the result of water intrusion, down the mast, up the rudder tube, etc. So my primary concern has been keeping the bilge empty during the rainy season. After reading some of this thread I may need to consider a secondary high volume pump. It seems unlikely that an event can just happen that lets water pour in, but obviously it can and does occur, fortunately infrequently though.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Too Much Water...

Our '88 boat came with two Jabsco 37202 (or similar #) 12 volt pumps. Each with its own float switch.
The specs are that they will each pump a "nominal flow rate" of 3 GPM.
That's not a lot, but I believe that they will come pretty close to that in the real world. I have replaced all of the factory ribbed hose with smooth-bore hose. Total rise is probably close to 3 feet, so that would be a consideration.
This would not keep up with the inflow from most hose sizes from common thru hull fittings, so they would deal best with incidental water like the small amount from a shaft log packing or the little that comes down the inside of the mast.

Bob is right on to have a larger (in the slip when on shore power) pump for a major emergency when it might be a while before someone noticed that the boat is in distress.

My pumps can certainly slow the flooding, but not reverse it beyond a certain flow rate. This is considering a 'worst case' situation. I figure that it more likely that I would have a leak from a shaft seal, and my pumps could likely keep up with that.
All of our thru hulls are current technology and very strong, and all the hoses are new or newer. Of course, you never really know when "Murphy" might want to visit... :rolleyes:

I found a little chart for amounts of water ingress by opening and depth. It's depressing.
http://www.whsyc.org/Flooding/Flooding.html

Since we are usually focusing our concern on existing thru hull fittings and their hoses and not larger openings that might occur in a collision, I also view ID of hoses and their barbed fittings as the real determinant of the risk. i.e. Few thru hulls are actually "full flow" for a given nominal hose size.
Also my shallow hull has no fittings under the DWL by over about 14 inches or so. YMMV, as the saying goes.

I just hope that if there is flooding, both pumps work well and someone spots the flow and calls me! :0

Our club residents also walk all of the docks every day and have keys for every boat... and permission to break in if needed... and access to a large gasoline-powered dewatering pump in a cart. I did actually use that big pump to stop a 37 footer from sinking last year.

Lots of facets to this concern...

FIRST: Actually TEST your existing pumps. ALL of them. Including that large manual pump installed by the helm in the later Ericson's.
While it's interesting to have 'net discussions over what should be or might be, first be sure that everything you have on boat actually works.

But, you knew that.

As the wise old sergeant used to say on Hill Street Blues, "Be careful out there!"
:egrin:
 
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supersailor

Contributing Partner
Wow Loren, :0

My 3gpm bilge pump that I had when terra Nova went down was fighting an inflow of about 60gpm ( 1.5" down X 2'). I now have a mighty 6gpm to pump with. That inflow is approx. 12 5 gal buckets a minute and the output was 3gpm Now 6gpm or about 1.2 5gal buckets a minute. I think I know why she was going down fast. Even with the pool pump, she would slowly go down.

I was on board the morning of the sinking. My neighbor checked her at about 1320. All was well. The call from the Harbor Master at about 1550 that she was going down fast. What happened between 1320 and 1530 approx.?

I met a guy who had his 35-2 go down like mine. He sailed up from Mexico to San Diego. He went to dinner at a restaurant and came back to find the bow just above the water. Turns out, he had put a tool box under the galley sink. It had been sliding back and forth and hitting the galley sink drain loosening it. It popped off while he was eating. The boat was a total loss. It's this moment of inattention once again that gets you in trouble. That's why I valve everything off while I'm off the boat.
 
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bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
Next up in the parade of dumb questions....

I'm putting the new pump under the helmsmans' seat, which puts it something less than two feet from the thru-hull where water exits.

Do I need a vented loop in that run of hose (on the pressure side of the pump)?

"In theory", there should never be a siphon there (unless the pump end of the hose comes off the pump); "in theory" the diaphragm pump acts as its own check-valve. But, stuff happens.

I'm planning on putting a vented loop there. Just because. But I haven't been able to convince myself I "need" one.

bilge pump vented loop.jpg
 

Pnelson

Member I
Anti siphon loop

Bruce, my discharge line already had the loop in place so I left it there when I installed the diaphragm pump. It probably doesn’t serve any real purpose but I don’t see a downside either, and it was there.
 

Farlander

Member II
Following Intently

I've read the post 5x at least, some great info here thanks to all contributors. I plan to install the whale gulper 320 as others have done, with the vertical strum box and water witch.

On my '70 35-2 I have yet to see the bottom of the bilge, as it is full of sludge. Will the whale vertical strum box fit in the bottom?

Also, the manual helmsman bilge needs to be replaced. Can anyone suggest a replacement that is roughly the same size i.e. will fit inside the starboard lazarette?

Cheers,
 
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