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Wanted : Asymmetric / cruiser spinnaker for E 38

llenrow

Member II
Next season plan to experiment with downwind setups—-whisker pole/jib vs asymm. spinnaker. No racing, looking for used and cheap to gain experience

Doug
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
If you don't have any luck with the E-38 spinnaker, you can look for another type of boat with similar dimensions. Your I is 50' and the J is 16.25'. The Catalina 38, for example, has an I of 49.8 feet and J of 15.5 feet. You can get the data at Sailboatdata.com.

Terra Nova carries a 1/2oz Drifter and a 1/1/2oz Triradial. Both are symmetrical. The Drifter is awesome in winds that don't even ripple the water but it better be gone by the wind hits eight knots. The Triradial is good in any condition you are crazy enough to set it in. In my old age, I now keep the Triradial in an ATN sock. Much easier to handle but you might get laughed off the race track.

P1000469.jpg
 
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llenrow

Member II
If you don't have any luck with the E-38 spinnaker, you can look for another type of boat with similar dimensions. Your I is 50' and the J is 16.25'. The Catalina 38, for example, has an I of 49.8 feet and J of 15.5 feet. You can get the data at Sailboatdata.com.

Terra Nova carries a 1/2oz Drifter and a 1/1/2oz Triradial. Both are symmetrical. The Drifter is awesome in winds that don't even ripple the water but it better be gone by the wind hits eight knots. The Triradial is good in any condition you are crazy enough to set it in. In my old age, I now keep the Triradial in an ATN sock. Much easier to handle but you might get laughed off the race track.

View attachment 25298

Thanks for that—-I’m looking for simple for now———wife willing to first mate but reliably its up to me .......I did a lot of basic single handing this season and want to be able to safely either push jib out with whisker pole alone ——or almost alone—- or set asymmetrical from some setup forward of forstay. Looks like ATN has not only a sock but forstay strap and hardware that looks pretty easy to work with and is inexpensive using a cruiser type spinnaker. Other asymm. Option seems to be a temporary bowsprit of some kind.

My fear of anything symmetrical is it appears to need a bigger pole—-or thats my understanding—-and just seems to complex relative to where I’m at.

Doug
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
My "secret" for single handing and short handing is to use jack lines and a harness. Not much of a secret as all offshore sailors in their right minds use them. You can get them at West Marine or online. Just "clip on" when you go forward. You will stick with the boat at all times. This adds confidence to your foredeck work. I have single handed the chute several times with the help of "Otto" the autopilot and the ATN. It's just a matter of plotting out the steps you need to take.

I wouldn't be too intimidated by the pole. Mine is 16' long and I can easily handle it. In part because it is supported in the middle by the topping lift. A whisker pole for my boat would normally be 10'-12' depending on the jib size. many are telescoping so they can be used with different sized jibs.

The thing is to remember here is the assem is a great reaching sail. It is not a running sail. reaching is where the symmetrical sail shines. You do not see the symmetrical sail on most of the new race boats because the don't run. they are so fast that they need to use the wind multiplier effect so they tack down wind. We are best off pointing at where we are going. Thus, the symmetrical is by far the best deep downwind.

A really good way of learning the "ropes" is to volunteer to crew on a boat that's racing. Skills sharpen quickly on the race course and the crews usually know what they are doing. Also starting on a smaller boat helps greatly. Also, try to have an experienced spinnaker veteran on board the first few times you set the sail.. I, of course, did not follow my own voice so my first hoist had the spinnaker upside down. The fifth hoist had the spinnaker pole slam up parallel to the mast because I failed to connect the downhaul to the pole. But learn I did. The spinnaker can be so rewarding. My very first hoist on Terra Nova was in the Gulf Islands on a beam reach. The boat had been going 2 1/2kn under main and 130. That jumped to 5.4kn when the chute was popped.
 
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llenrow

Member II
My "secret" for single handing and short handing is to use jack lines and a harness. Not much of a secret as all offshore sailors in their right minds use them. You can get them at West Marine or online. Just "clip on" when you go forward. You will stick with the boat at all times. This adds confidence to your foredeck work. I have single handed the chute several times with the help of "Otto" the autopilot and the ATN. It's just a matter of plotting out the steps you need to take.

I wouldn't be too intimidated by the pole. Mine is 16' long and I can easily handle it. In part because it is supported in the middle by the topping lift. A whisker pole for my boat would normally be 10'-12' depending on the jib size. many are telescoping so they can be used with different sized jibs.

The thing is to remember here is the assem is a great reaching sail. It is not a running sail. reaching is where the symmetrical sail shines. You do not see the symmetrical sail on most of the new race boats because the don't run. they are so fast that they need to use the wind multiplier effect so they tack down wind. We are best off pointing at where we are going. Thus, the symmetrical is by far the best deep downwind.

A really good way of learning the "ropes" is to volunteer to crew on a boat that's racing. Skills sharpen quickly on the race course and the crews usually know what they are doing. Also starting on a smaller boat helps greatly. Also, try to have an experienced spinnaker veteran on board the first few times you set the sail.. I, of course, did not follow my own voice so my first hoist had the spinnaker upside down. The fifth hoist had the spinnaker pole slam up parallel to the mast because I failed to connect the downhaul to the pole. But learn I did. The spinnaker can be so rewarding. My very firs hoist on Terra Nova was in the Gulf Islands on a beam reach. The boat had been going 2 1/2kn under main and 130. That jumped to 5.4kn when the chute was popped.


Bob

Yes yes and yes, going from a year on a 30 to a 38 was just one of those things that happens. I am very safety conscious but live life feeling there is inherent danger in not taking some risks. The downwind thing is one of those uncomfortable areas for me right now that will sort itself out in time. I remember a time back as a flight instructor in small planes, we would snicker at the guy with the whatever it was that was really too much for him to handle. The snickering really is only a function of the recipient and their unwillingness to accept their inexperience. That is not me when I think of a gigantic spinnaker flying in front of my boat. I think some crewing experience is a great idea

Thx. Doug
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
If you have a whisker pole, I don't think it will be intimidating to wing out your genoa for dead downwind or a very deep reach.

It's just a matter of following the steps. Screw-up and fouls offer little risk of injury or damage to gear in normal conditions.

People love asymmetrical spinnakers, I just don't personally get the point for shorthanded cruising.
 

llenrow

Member II
If you have a whisker pole, I don't think it will be intimidating to wing out your genoa for dead downwind or a very deep reach.

It's just a matter of following the steps. Screw-up and fouls offer little risk of injury or damage to gear in normal conditions.

People love asymmetrical spinnakers, I just don't personally get the point for shorthanded cruising.

Thanks

Doug
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
Hi Christian,

Up here in the great Northwest, the wind tends to be directly on you nose or tail. Much of the time there is not enough wind velocity to propel you fast enough to overcome the rather ferocious tides so you get to listen to the noise, vibration and smell of the diesel so you can make it through the next pass. The spinnaker can double your down wind speed giving you enough go to make it to The pass. An example I gave earlier was from 2.5kn to 5.4kn. Up here, that makes all the difference in the world. Of course, the big difference is in lighter airs.

The other thing I don't understand up here is the popularity of full keel boats. I have not seen a one that goes hard on the wind at all. For many of our club events, we fin keel boats sail the whole way while the full keel boats power all the way because they don't point high enough to make any time. If I wanted a power boat, I would have bought one.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Absolutely--the drive of a real spinnaker is amazing, and they are fun to fly, and with the pole on the forestay some will point remarkably high. It is the a-symm I don't quite get for our boats, since it doesn't work on a dead run.

As you point out, local environment means a lot. Here at MDR we rarely go dead downwind at all, and the course to Catalina is usually a close reach there and broad reach back. Plus , there is rarely wind in the morning in summer, so if cruising A to B the engine is on.

As a practical matter, I don't need a whisker pole here for my local sailing. And if club racing, I would need a spinnaker pole--not a whisker pole.

The gear is expensive, too. My CF Forespar line control telescoping pole was $2400--and I am one size down from recommended size for the 38. And then there is the stuff on the mast.
 

bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
It is the a-symm I don't quite get for our boats, since it doesn't work on a dead run.

It...mostly doesn't work on a dead run.

I chose an asym for single-handing. It works great for what *I* do (your mileage may vary, contents may have settled during shipping...) Mostly what I wanted was a sail I could use to get down the Sound when it is too light to jib-reach, but not so light that the engine is the only option.

I bought a light (basically 1/2-oz) "A2", which is a light-air running shape. it really shines between about 110-150 degrees apparent wind - higher than that gets a little tight, lower than that and it gets blanketed behind the main (**). But in that range it is a sweet sail and works great.

Yeah, it doesn't go DDW very well. But it's not hard to sail 30-degrees high off DDW, get across the Sound, then gibe and go 30-degrees off DDW the other way. I did this all the way down the Sound on the way back from the Rendezvous - very pleasant day.

(**) It *can* go DDW, if that's what I really need to do. The few times I've tried it, Ive tightened the halyard so the luff is firm, then gibed the main. I end up having a nice wing-and-wing configuration with a light 165% sail rather than a heavier 120% jib. No pole needed (so far) - with the main out of the way it is more than light enough to hold its shape. But it's more sensitive to steering - unlike poling out a jib, it won't stay out there if I get sloppy and head up enough to make the leech collapse.

All of that is, as I mentioned, good for what I do, which is mostly cruising the Sound in moderate conditions. Different needs come into play when crossing oceans.

The one other thing I'd note is that, for short-handed, the rigging required for an asym is a big benefit. With a symmetrical kite, you've got a pole, a foreguy, a topping lift, a sheet, an afterguy, perhaps lazy-sheets and lazy-guys to do gibes.... and a gibe involves disconnecting the pole from the old-guy, swinging/lowering it through the foretriangle with adjustments to the topping lift, connecting it to the new guy and re-raising the pole. Lots of stuff to "do", some of which requires trips to the bow.

The asym has a halyard, a tack-line and a sheet. That's it. I raise mine in an ATN sleeve, then can do the rest from the cockpit (raise the sock, adjust the tackline and sheet). A gibe involves releasing the old sheet, steering DDW with the asym billowing in front of the boat, then sheeting it in on the new board with the new sheet. Much less work, and, can all be done from the cockpit. If needed, I can even douse the kite (into its sock), gibe, then raise the sock to fly the kite on the new gibe - although that isn't as "clean" an approach, because the halyard ends up passing inside the headstay instead of around the front.

Anyway... just two cents worth. Yes, a symmetrical kite is a great weapon for going DDW. But an asym - especially for short-handed sailing - can have some advantages. And sailing 30 degrees high to make it work isn't necessarily a deal-breaker for me.

Bruce
 
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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Bruce,

The listed max working length of my pole is 23'. Could I wing out your Asymm?

That would be a lot of pole but also a lot of sail area for ddw. What is the approx square footage of yours?.

A genny furls, making dealing with 420 sf easy and predictable. How would a poled-out asymm do?
 

gadangit

Member III
The asym has a halyard, a tack-line and a sheet. That's it. I raise mine in an ATN sleeve, then can do the rest from the cockpit (raise the sock, ...

Bruce

Hi Bruce-
What is your setup for the continuous line that raises/lowers the sock? I've not come up with a good way to work the sock from the cockpit.

Chris
 

bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
Could I wing out your Asymm?
...What is the approx square footage of yours?
... How would a poled-out asymm do?

My asym is 22.7' on the foot, and has an area of about 785 square feet.

Yes, it's a lot of sail. My use-case is in light air - in anything over ~10 apparent, I'm generally jib-reaching (again, at angles slightly above DDW to make it less work to stay in comfortable groove).

I don't really know how it would do poled out, but it's a lot of horsepower in any sort of breeze, and I suspect it would be far less tolerant in offshore use. If a wind-shift occurred, for example, a smaller/stiffer headsail on a pole would be easier to manage, and would likely be able to survive being "backed" much better.
 

bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
What is your setup for the continuous line that raises/lowers the sock?

As you know, the ATN has a loop of line that hangs out from the bottom of the sleeve. One side is tied to the inside of the "funnel" and goes around a block at the top to pull the sock up, the other side is tied to the rim of the "funnel" to pull it down.

I replaced that line with one that is about 30 feet longer, and instead of letting it just hang from the sleeve I have the two parts run through a Schaefer double-block with a swivel and a snap-shackle on the bottom. (I could take some photos next time I'm at the boat, if interested...)

When setting up to fly the thing, I connect the sheet to the clew and run it aft; I connect the tackline to the tack, run it through a block on the anchor roller and then toss the tail aft to the cockpit, and I clip this "sock-block" to an available hole on the deck-plate at the mast, and toss the loop back to the cockpit. When it's all hooked up, I can raise the halyard from the cockpit, and then pull on the side of the line that raises the sleeve, also from the cockpit. When it's time to douse, I pull on the other side and it pulls the sleeve "funnel" down to snuff the kite.

It seems to work pretty well, especially because doing it this way pulls the sock straight down (behind the main) as it snuffs the kite, rather than being somewhere out to leeward of the masthead. And I never have to try to figure out how to reach the snuffer line when it is hanging somewhere in space to leeward of the boat, as it always seems to.

Three downsides to be aware of:

-- one, that block is always on my snuffer-line, so... if you don't clip it down somewhere, it has the potential to go banging around the deck (or dragging in the water) when the kite is flying.

-- two, if you do "outside gibes" as I usually do, the sock-lines end up outside of the headstay on every other gibe. If you do an even number of gibes, that's a non issue. But if you need to douse on a different gibe than you raised it on, you have to disconnect the block and walk the loop around to the other side of the headstay, otherwise the snuffer line is going to try to pull the kite around the headstay as the funnel comes down.

-- three, as mentioned, I'm only doing this in light conditions. Not sure if this is a viable approach in lots of breeze. I haven't tried.

Bruce
 

bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
DDW versus broad-reaching

I forgot to add... broad-reaching can get your downwind faster than DDW running, in a lot of conditions.

I don't remember the whole table off the top of my head, but we used to have a table of speed-versus-downwind-angle "break-evens" that we'd use to get downwind as efficiently as possible. If I recall correctly, the "break-even" sailed by sailing at an apparent wind-angle of 150 degrees is something like 11% more speed compared to sailing dead downwind.

What that means is that if you're going to a point 10 miles dead-downwind at 5 knots (or whatever), it'll take you two hours to get there. But if your speed goes up by more than 11% (5.6 knots) by sailing a little higher, at a wind-angle of 150 degrees, you can sail half the distance, gibe, sail the other half at the same angle on the other gibe, and end up getting there sooner, even though you've sailed more distance.

$.02
 
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gadangit

Member III
Sounds like a great solution. Are you hoisting and dousing your spinnaker with the headail furled up? Is your tack set to the approximate length prior to hoisting the sock? I would have figured your sock block would be attached much closer to the bow pulpit as your tack line would be the restriction, unless a fair bit of spinnaker is exposed prior to the sock hoist?

Because we don't have a nice sock block solution, most of the sock line work is done up at the bow pulpit. I have a hitch about 4 feet down from the hoop end that I stick on the samson post to hold the whole mess down if I have to interrupt the process. I've often thought that a block similar to what you described would work but with a much longer loop. Being able to quickly douse the sock from the cockpit is an attractive option.

Chris
 

gadangit

Member III
Next season plan to experiment with downwind setups—-whisker pole/jib vs asymm. spinnaker. No racing, looking for used and cheap to gain experience

Doug
I can say, without a doubt, that the scary spinnaker is completely contained by a sock. We have done some of the dumbest things imaginable, in all sorts of wind and have always safely and (relatively) quickly gotten the spinnaker down. We had lots of racing experience prior, so that helped, but the learning curve is steep and very satisfying. Don't be intimidated.

And, while I'm talking, I also learned all about whisker poles and wing-on-wing this last spring going across the gulf. So now we have both methods to get downwind and each have their advantage. I really love putting up our big chute and gliding across the bay in light winds when everyone else is motoring. Going DDW in 25kts of breeze and surfing the occasional wave was great fun too.

Chris
 

bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
Are you hoisting and dousing your spinnaker with the headail furled up? Is your tack set to the approximate length prior to hoisting the sock? I would have figured your sock block would be attached much closer to the bow pulpit as your tack line would be the restriction, unless a fair bit of spinnaker is exposed prior to the sock hoist?

Yes, I generally furl the headsail before raising the kite.

And... you raise an interesting dilemma. My sock is not quite as long as the snuffed spinnaker. There is a fair bit of spinnaker exposed even before the sock hoist, especially at the tack. I... uh.... chatted with the sailmaker when I got it, he swears it is the right length, I think it is about 5 feet short. I would have preferred to have the sail completely encapsulated in the sleeve with no exposed corners when it was snuffed, but... apparently the only option I have is to buy a longer sleeve. At 15 bucks a foot to buy a whole new sleeve that is 43 feet long instead of 38... it's fairly low on my list of things to fix.

So I clip my spinnaker bag to the bottom of the first stanchion aft of the pulpit (on the leeward side). I attach the halyard and then pre-set the tackline to about where it is going to end up after the hoist - on my boat, that's 4-6 feet of line between the block on the bow and the tack of the sail. Then I raise the sail in its sock, raise the sock, adjust the sheet to get the kite flying, and then fuss with the tackline if I need to... all from the cockpit.

When dousing, having the sock-block at the base of the mast works great until the funnel is about halfway down, then there can be a little bit of a tug-of-war between the tackline and the sock-line. Easing the tack-line 6-8 feet (my "J" is about 13 feet) solves that, and allows the whole sock to come down behind the main.

Bruce
 
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gadangit

Member III
There is a fair bit of spinnaker exposed even before the sock hoist, especially at the tack. I... uh.... chatted with the sailmaker when I got it, he swears it is the right length, I think it is about 5 feet short.

Funny, I was told the same thing. :)
 

ConchyDug

Member III
Bumping the thread because I have a few questions about A-kites. What's the proper luff size for an E38 A-kite? I found a spin and sock on Craigslist and seller claims the luff is 46.5', is that an appropriate size? He used to run this on a Catalina 400 with a 52' "I" and seems to think it is too big for my boat. From what I've read you want the luff size to be 90-100% of your "I" measurement, is this correct? Also the spin is cut for reaching, would I gain much downwind performance by running a sprit vs tackline off the anchor roller... or is that an exercise in futility?
 
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