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Electric repowering?

Sway

Junior Member
Don't see any recent discussion on converting to electric power. Researching converting my E30-1. Not even seeing much new discussion on line?
 

gadangit

Member III
My guess is that most conversions are so completely custom that most discussions are more like picture sideshows about what they did. And once you get it all sorted out there isn't much left to talk about.
There are many ways to skin this cat now, many more than were available just a few years ago.

What has your research revealed so far?
 

Mark F

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Hi Sway,

I have been asked to update my blog that Christian referenced above... one of these days I will. There does seem to be a small trend of switching to electric propulsion. Here are some YouTube Vloggers that are out there cruising or installing EP, its a mixed bag of good and maybe good approaches;

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLx_mGFQfb39FXu_oCzggYfkeRKYkI6xpi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp8p3bKr_rc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_lCM9elcmA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVKFW2uz8_U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRgMBO-U3SE
 

mordust

Member II
We repowered our E27 three years ago using a system we bought from ElectricYacht. We have been extremely happy with the results, although she will soon be on the market. With our retirement plans changing, we decided we need a little bit of a bigger boat, and have recently purchased a larger Ericson (E32-3). She has a diesel. However, both my wife and I agree that we are REALLY going to miss the electric motor. There are many benefits and little downside (think range when there is a need to motor for a while with much speed). For everyday sailing electric is great. When we were concerned about range, we could supplement with our Honda 2000 "suitcase" generator.

Feel free to pm me and we can make arrangements to discuss it all via telephone if you would like. I am sorry to say I don't have a lot of pictures of the installation process.

Bob Greene
 
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Leslie Newman

Guest
When they have a battery the weight and size of my fuel tank (at a reasonable price) that allows me to motor for 300 NM, and can be recharged in 30 minutes, then I might consider electric power.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Agree.

I see zero appeal for larger boats. Any long cruise, which they were built for, requires much motoring. BaJa ha ha? Figure 100 hours. Cross the doldrums in any hemisphere? Hundreds of hours. Maine to Annapolis in deep summer? I have motored most of the way. Bermuda to Virgin Gorda? We motored four days straight, day an night, across a glassy sea.

An E38 with the stock 55-gallon fuel tank and a 4-cylinder Universal burns a little more than half a gallon an hour for a range of more than 500 miles non-stop. Every 5-gallon deck jug adds 50 miles more, and I' saw a 40-footer leave Hawaii for Seattle with ten jugs on deck.

A diesel in action not only propels the boat but tops off the batteries and runs full refrigeration, obviating the need for the expensive solar panels everybody thinks they want.

Not knocking electric. We have three Priuses. Each makes me makes me loathe the current Audi Q5 for its unnecessary complication, ridiculously busy six- speed auto transmission, noticeable turbo lag, clumsy engine shut-off at idle, and 91 octane gas @4.50 a gallon here for an actual (PATHETIC) mpg of 23. Ancient technology.

But I wouldn't give up the 5432 diesel for anything except a new diesel.
 
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Leslie Newman

Guest
Agree.

Not knocking electric. We have three Priuses. Each makes me makes me loathe the current Audi Q5 for its unnecessary complication, ridiculously busy six- speed auto transmission, noticeable turbo lag, clumsy engine shut-off at idle, and 91 octane gas @4.50 a gallon here for an actual (PATHETIC) mpg of 23. Ancient technology.

But I wouldn't give up the 5432 diesel for anything except a new diesel.

Wow, funny you mention the Audi Q5. I had a horrible nightmare experience with one. Wife owned a Q5. 2015 model. I do all my own maintenance. Have rebuilt all types of engines. So thinking it would be a normal job, I changed the transmission fluid in her Q5. $500 in parts (Almost $300 for gasket/filter, rest of the money was trans fluid). Then I changed the filter and fluid and after the transmission reported it could not find reverse. After much monkeying with the shifter, reving and such the transmission finally re-learned what it needed to do and seemed fine. I cleared the codes and sold the vehicle. Never again would I own an Audi (VW) vehicle. The computer systems lock out the owner. And parts prices are insanely priced. Engine $10K. Transmission about the same.
 

Mark F

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
I try not to comment on the EP/ICE for sailboat auxiliary propulsion debate. It usually doesn't end up being productive. I'm telling myself out load right now, "put the iPad away!". We'll see if I post this :).

So, for ME there are real pluses to not having a diesel. No diesel smell, I've been on too many boats that smell of fuel as soon as I step below decks. No diesel smell, most every time I've thrown up on a sailboat has been while motoring downwind with diesel fumes pouring over the transom. No diesel smell on my hands from working the diesel. Yea, I don't like the smell of diesel :). My friends with diesel engines seem to spend varying amounts of time on maintenance. Motoring on diesel power (on most boats) for hours on end is my idea of hell.

The range issue with EP is a real concern if you travel long distances and sail to a schedule. That said, there are ways to alleviate that concern. James Lamben of Propulsion Marine in Santa Barbara has a solar setup that he claims to sail at 3 knots in calm seas with solar only https://youtu.be/BgH5EW7Zngo On my EP setup while sailing at 7 knots I can produce 2+ amps at 52 volts by regenerating through the prop. Not a lot but it adds up over time.

What I like about EP is the low maintenance, no smell while motoring or sitting at anchor, no vibration while motoring, hardly any noise while motoring, the motor is always "on" ready if you need it, high torque maneuverability...

I get the adamancy of diesel on a sailboat, some of my best friends have diesel auxilaries but for me I can't imagine owning a boat without EP.

This is a group I feel comfortable making these comments, we are a group of respectful posters, many sailing places on the web are not.
 
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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Motoring on diesel power (on most boats) for hours on end is my idea of hell.

The simple solution is to have all teeth capped or removed entirely. To sleep, I like to bite on a spare impeller.

Earplugs are useful too, since you can't listen to the stereo anyhow.

We are free to exchange opinions here. I learn more from that than echo chamber agreement. Nowhere else could I get away with challenging the very idea of dodgers and biminis, which I think ruin the whole experience. Did I just say that out loud?



 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
I too resolved to stay out of this thread. But just this morning there were news stories about zinc-air batteries that promise the performance of lithium-ion at the cost of lead-acid. Basically, the whole argument is a moving target.

I am totally the kind of guy who would leap into a quixotic DIY conversion. But as long as the old atomic 4 keeps purring along, I really see no need. (However, it COULD use the PCV conversion kit. *cough* )

In some cruising guide, I read the proposition that a “cruising boat” should be able to motor for a minimum of 200 miles. This could be an interesting number to debate but perhaps not in this thread. It fits in well with my extreme use cases of living 200 miles up a big river and needing to catch weather windows between west coast ports. Also the approach to Columbia River dams can involve motoring for an hour or more against currents moving at or near hull speed. IIRC, the author based that number on distances between west coast ports from Panama to Alaska, and the potential need to get to a hurricane hole from points in the Sea of Cortez without favorable winds.

For a day-sailing boat, in typical coastal areas, if the old power plant is ailing, why on earth not go electric?
 
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Leslie Newman

Guest
To each his own of course.
If a boat smells of diesel then the owner is doing very poor maintenance for sure. I wouldn't sail with them.
The manufacturers put a premium on their electric machines even though it shouldn't cost so much.
Friend of mine that drives a Prius paid $500 when his headlights quit. Some circuit board. Gas savings took a hit.
I want something that I can refuel quick and keep going.
 

fool

Member III
.

We are free to exchange opinions here. I learn more from that than echo chamber agreement. Nowhere else could I get away with challenging the very idea of dodgers and biminis, which I think ruin the whole experience. Did I just say that out loud?


Not to steal a thread, but I keep this opinion in mind every time a guest ducks under the dodger to reduce windchill by 15 kts to next to nothing instead of bulking up on another microfiber layer. Or I have duck under the dodger to keep from getting soaked from a spray across the deck.

I'm not against sailing on boats without the comfort convenience of a dodger. Having one doesn't reduce the experience of standing at the helm, or (sufficiently warmed) moving back to windward to sit on the rail. But I digress....

What were we talking about? Oh yeah, repowering... Hmmm...

Brain Fagan in one of his many cruising guides about sailing in sailing in Southern California had three small pieces of advice. One was to cast off the lines, another was have a good running and well maintained motor to assist with anchoring in busy anchorages (no specific opinion on motor type). I forget what the third was and will have to revisit one of his books such as A Cruising Guide to California Channel Islands or The Cruising Guide to Central, Southern California to sort it out. Don't forget to drop the anchor? Um, no, that's not it. Use scope? Meh. Minty fresh but hardly a cruising top three.

Don't let means outweigh goals? Just do it? Reef early and often? Don't spit into the wind? Not...

Exchange opinions in open forums without digressing too much? Nope, that's not it either. Nuts. It'll come to me in a bit, perhaps in the next thread.

Cheers,

Max
 

gadangit

Member III
I try not to comment on the EP/ICE for sailboat auxiliary propulsion debate. It usually doesn't end up being productive. I'm telling myself out load right now, "put the iPad away!". We'll see if I post this :).

So, for ME there are real pluses to not having a diesel. No diesel smell, I've been on too many boats that smell of fuel as soon as I step below decks. No diesel smell, most every time I've thrown up on a sailboat has been while motoring downwind with diesel fumes pouring over the transom. No diesel smell on my hands from working the diesel. Yea, I don't like the smell of diesel :). My friends with diesel engines seem to spend varying amounts of time on maintenance. Motoring on diesel power (on most boats) for hours on end is my idea of hell.

The range issue with EP is a real concern if you travel long distances and sail to a schedule. That said, there are ways to alleviate that concern. James Lamben of Propulsion Marine in Santa Barbara has a solar setup that he claims to sail at 3 knots in calm seas with solar only https://youtu.be/BgH5EW7Zngo On my EP setup while sailing at 7 knots I can produce 2+ amps at 52 volts by regenerating through the prop. Not a lot but it adds up over time.

What I like about EP is the low maintenance, no smell while motoring or sitting at anchor, no vibration while motoring, hardly any noise while motoring, the motor is always "on" ready if you need it, high torque maneuverability...

I get the adamancy of diesel on a sailboat, some of my best friends have diesel auxilaries but for me I can't imagine owning a boat without EP.

This is a group I feel comfortable making these comments, we are a group of respectful posters, many sailing places on the web are not.

Well done Mark. Try having this conversation in person in the middle of oil country.
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
The minuses outweigh the pluses here in the Pacific North West. The long crossings and fast tides demand long range and fast refueling. One must time one's trips with the tides or you go nowhere fast. I would hate to run out of power on a calm day in the middle of the Straights of Georgia or the Straights of Juan De Fuca. You could go somewhere that you don't want to. The inability to cruise at the higher speeds is also a liability up here. At 6 1/2 knots, you can punch through a developing rapid where at 5 knots, you might not be able to make it.

I would love to switch to quiet vibration free propulsion system but I can't live with a 20 mile range and hours to recharge. Also, cruising at 3 knots to stretch the battery charge is not an option when the tides are faster than that so I will continue to watch the developments with interest. Also, at the moment, the pricing of the electric stuff is out of line with the costs of producing it. Perhaps the pricing will be lowered as volume increases although gouging is common with boating suppliers.
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
The minuses outweigh the pluses here in the Pacific North West. The long crossings and fast tides demand long range and fast refueling. One must time one's trips with the tides or you go nowhere fast. I would hate to run out of power on a calm day in the middle of the Straights of Georgia or the Straights of Juan De Fuca. You could go somewhere that you don't want to. The inability to cruise at the higher speeds is also a liability up here. At 6 1/2 knots, you can punch through a developing rapid where at 5 knots, you might not be able to make it.

I would love to switch to quiet vibration free propulsion system but I can't live with a 20 mile range and hours to recharge. Also, cruising at 3 knots to stretch the battery charge is not an option when the tides are faster than that so I will continue to watch the developments with interest. Also, at the moment, the pricing of the electric stuff is out of line with the costs of producing it. Perhaps the pricing will be lowered as volume increases although gouging is common with boating suppliers.

All true, but note that a lot of people are doing very inexpensive DIY installations using ala carte parts from the internet and perhaps something like used forklift motors. It is my impression that these inexpensive motors are usually not rated for continuous duty. I.e. fine for getting in and out of the marina but maybe not much else before overheating. I'd guess that this may also change as used parts start coming out of the electric auto industry. But anyway, for someone who enjoys tinkering, these experiments don't necessarily have to cost a lot of money.
 

texlan

Member I
Blogs Author
I have already purchased the 10kw Thunderstruck EV kit for my Ericson 29, it's sitting on the project bench as I work through the rest of the refit.

My plan is to use the electric for propulsion, solar as primary charge source and maintenance at anchor, and a diesel genset for prolonged motoring/backup power. I have an all electric Macgregor 26 in a slip at the local lake, no shore power, >2hp (1800 watt) electric auxilary, 2.4kwh 24v lifepo4 pack and 480 watts of solar as my 'test case' and it's been fine for a couple years now. Even motoring into 30 knot winds on the nose(though mind you, not quickly. think like 1kt haha -- Tacking with no headsail and a reefed main was faster vmg)

I've had to literally cut out the cabin sole and bottom of the engine bay of my e29 in order to clean the murky, oily disgusting mess that had been left from years of neglect coupled with the tropical storm 20 years ago that filled the boat with fresh water and disgorged the oily contents of the A4 into the boat. Somewhere along the line a PO had filled the keel sump with 400 lbs of lead pigs and window foam. Needless to say, it was like the Kuwaiti oil fields after the gulf war in there. It all pretty much turned me off to the smell of engines :) The motor install is waiting on my glassing in the bottom of the engine bay, modifying it a bit, adding new engine stringers, etc.

After months of cleaning it's only now beginning to smell okay after closing the boat up for a day.

I prefer the quiet, clean smell of a good sine wave brushless motor. The instant-on with no warm up on a lee shore.. but I recognize that even the 10kwh battery pack I intend on installing cannot motor indefinitely, when I take my boat to the ocean and have to make headway against the inevitable uncooperative weather. So I'm putting a 5kw genset in a slightly modified engine bay and should have the best of both worlds. It'll be fine to recharge the battery bank to support the air conditioner in our summer heat here in Arizona too.

As I have more to show I'll start posting photos of my refit -- this board has been an incredible resource and I hope to be able to return the favor. I've been working on the E29 for almost a year now (As jobs and heat permit)

I get frustrated sometimes with the animosity in electric vs. petrol propulsion threads that go on in the boating forums, and therefore don't post much about the subject. Both propulsion systems have advantages and disadvantages. Hybrid like I am doing has both advantages and disadvantages. There is no one right or wrong answer -- We all have different goals, different operational requirements, different skillsets from which we operate, different backgrounds, and different futures. But we're all on the same team -- we all bought sailboats so we can sail.

Carry on,

Sean
WK7R
 

steven

Sustaining Member
I am about to replace my A4. Would really go for electric, except, . . .problem seems to be range. I'd like an occasional range of 40miles at hull speed.
If I need to get home on a Sunday afternoon and the wind just dies. Typical of a Chesapeake summer.

That would mean a pretty large battery bank, expensive and heavy.

I like the genset idea. What unit are you getting ? Marine gensets look pretty expensive.
Would a couple of 2KW or 3KW portable Honda's work ?

Another problem is how fast the battery will take a charge.
I've read that some can charge as fast as they discharge, but I don't know anyone who has actually tried it.

--Steve
 

texlan

Member I
Blogs Author
I'm planning on installing a nextgen 5.5kw, https://www.nextgenerationpower.com/5kwmarine.html, the design appeals to me -- simple, common Kubota diesel, parts available almost everywhere, runs at a better spot on the power curve than other small gensets at 2600rpm. Their design for the exhaust elbow is as terrible as most so I'll probably fashion an insulated flexible stainless dry riser pipe and put the injection and water lift above the waterline. I plan to couple it with a 48v 5000VA Victron Quattro. Yes, I know, at that point I'm spending the $$ for a brand new diesel repower, but it provides a lot of capability and backup options that a diesel alone would not provide.

1 or 2 portable hondas would work and my understanding is that lots of people use them as their range extender in electric conversions, but you do have to consider their drawbacks at least as I see them:

1) Not meant to be operated at an angle -- no (safe) motor sailing
2) Cannot be permenantly installed, must be stowed and operated on deck (No exhaust control)
3) Still must manage gasoline (and ensuing vapors) (This is something I'm trying to do away with, myself)

If these don't bother you then great! Slap on a honda and a decent charge controller and call it wonderful.

The people that use them as range extenders seem quite happy with them (mbianka/the bianka log comes to mind)

Lead acid can be charged quite quickly up to about 70-80% capacity. Then it's the long acceptance phase and rather inefficient use of power (when charging the last 20% you only store about 1/2-2/3rds of the current you put in.) Lifepo4 can charge safely at 1c up to about 95-98% capacity, storing about 99% of the power you put in. The charge acceptance rate of the two makes no difference if you're using a generator as a range extender but it's a big factor on run time at anchor or if you use solar.

Some thoughts..

Sean
WK7R
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
>>>>Yes, I know, at that point I'm spending the $$ for a brand new diesel repower, but it provides a lot of capability and backup options that a diesel alone would not provide.

What are those?
 
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