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looking for Ideas to prevent jib sheets from catching forward hatch

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Ok, but...

Forget the leeward genoa sheet.

Just make sure it won't hang up when released and then cast it off and forget it.

Tack. Maintain tension on the new leeward sheet as the genoa comes around the mast.

Steer to keep the genoa from billowing out (you'll have to winch all that back in anyhow).

If I can haul around a genny alone on a 38 foot boat without fouling, anybody can.

The steering through the tack is important. Fast isn't necessary. Faster you turn, faster the sheets have to be hauled in.
 

Roger Janeway

Member II
Perhaps our problem relates to the speed of the tack, but when I'm using my Simrad autotiller, she's got the helm and has her own ideas. The other day I thought I'd be brave and try leaving the PO's thick rope loop off my protruding Lewmar Superhatch. In light air, I let the genoa back a bit to help me around. I kept tension on both sheets as the genoa scraped along the shrouds and mast, but somehow the formerly windward-about-to-be-leeward sheet wrapped tightly around the hatch. The air was so light that it was a perfect day for this experiment and I went forward and yanked the sheet out while Simrad kept me on the new tack. It took a bit of yanking and I was grateful for the lack of wind.

I suppose I'll keep experimenting, but the rope loop sure is a nice backstop, and it's only downsides are that it needs to be created (in my case, already done), and placed over the hatch when you close it before sailing off.

Second Star, I can send a photo and dimensions if it will help.

On another topic, Los Angeles sailors, is it normal to have so many low-wind afternoons in Santa Monica Bay in the winter? Is this because the land doesn't heat up enough to give us that shore breeze that makes much of Los Angeles bearable year-round without air-conditioning? And when will the afternoon breezes return?
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Yes, light air all winter unless a front comes through. That's true elsewhere too. For us, good time to motor out to Point Vincente to see the whales, usually with bit of sailing on the afternoon back.

The windiest months for Santa Monica Bay are April and May, providing some 20-30 knot days for crew training. The summers here are very good, I think: predictable 12 knots days, often building to 15 and whitecaps for a few hours.

In summer, no chance of rain, hardly any fog, no current to speak of and predictable wind make for a sort of universal sailing school. Guests are assured of a pleasant time. Rarely is it hot, although sun is strong. Water cool, reaches 72F by September.

Most days are preposterously glamorous and event-free, with the only complaint being "Eeeww, there's dew all over the deck."

We are the capital of conditions--and therefore, complacency.
 

Ensenada Crab

Member I
shorten jib to avoid entanglements?

knowing almost nothing, it seems that on my 32-2 that when tacking, the jib overlaps the forward standing rigging. which means the jib has to be drawn across the forward stays. so i am thinking, with roller furling, why not just (start the tack), shorten the jib so it easily clears the forward stays, move the jib from one side of the boat to the other without hanging on anything, then let out the jib for maximum effect. in my case the jib (genoa) seems to be several feet from the deck, so no problem with snagging any obstacles on the deck. i just hate to see the genoa dragged across those steel wires. my second genoa is even bigger than the first so i assume the sail to stays overlap would be more of an issue.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
A line to shed lines, perhaps

Strictly in the "for what it's worth" vein, I wonder if anyone has rigged a taut line from forward somewhere on deck to the front of the mast. This could be simple but still shed other lines like jib sheets.
You might tie to the fore guy attachment blocks.
They used such a cable on U Boats in WW2.
Example in this picture.

Probably not practical but sometimes it's helpful to think outside the box a bit.
 

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Macgyro

Amazingly Still Afloat
Blogs Author
Furling then Tacking

When I'm short handed, especially if it's windy, I furl the genoa about 70% or so, take the slack out of the genoa sheets, and then tack, then unfurl on the new tack. When I forget, and let the sheets flop about, they tend to get tangled on anything including the hatch.

Good Luck!
-Dean
 

Roger Janeway

Member II
Here is what mine looks like. (I'm embarrassed that I didn't take into account the reflectivity of the hatch lens. Please inspect the line, not the photographer.)

Hatch anti-fouling line.jpgHatch anti-fouling line close-up.jpg

EDITED 12/21/18: Line is a 69 inch long 5/8" line, with a few inches of overlap as seen in the photo to make a snug fit.
 
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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I am not letting you guys off the hook.

If the sheets are hanging up, fouling, jamming, and are otherwise full of surprises, successful tacking technique has not been achieved.

Work on it. Know what to keep a little tension on. Analyze each foul and figure out how to outsmart it before it happens, every time.

Sure it's a safety thing, in heavy air rounding the Horn and so on, but -- what it really is is, do I know how to sail my boat? Am I a beginner forever, a permanent intermediate, or just an expert who fell asleep? Do I have 20 years' experience, or only one year's experience, 20 times?

We must control the sheets and not let them control us. Can it be done?

You're kidding, right? You think America's Cup teams foul the genoa sheets? You think the winner of the beer can series fouls the sheets when tacking? You think every experienced skipper doesn't feel like a dope when he has to say, "run up there on the foredeck and clear that foul"? He does, because he knows he just screwed up.

This is a sport. How many years have you worked on your backhand, or concentrated on eyeballing the football all the way into your hands, or quietly gone to a driving range in prep for Saturday on the golf course? Practice there is taken for granted.

Practice of technique is everything in sailing, but few of us, after learning to sail, bother with it at all.

If you foul the sheets while jibing a planing dinghy in 25 knots, you get a violent cold bath -- and quickly develop technique that avoids fouling the sheets.

Yet on cruising boats, it's a shrug. Oh well, no reason to figure out how to do it right and do it right every time, in 5 knots or 40, solo or with racing crew or with grandma aboard. Really?

Every foul is a failure of anticipation and technique. Every foul is a mistake.

I'm not letting myself off the hook, either. I want to still improve, even at this age. And it goes beyond pride.

Sloppy technique hurts people when the wind comes up.

This team is a good example: they lost their boat by failure of technique and a failure of anticipation of almost everything:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVJYDWkJg_w&list=PLXJx_F6E8T8y8BVNBmmZ1c9udOwnNjx93&index=11
 

Roger Janeway

Member II
I do not understand the horror at our attempts to have a foredeck where “the rough ways shall be made smooth.” (Luke 3:5.) I agree completely with Christopher that every foul is a failure of anticipation and technique. But isn’t smoothing out a surface on which a line might snag the epitome of anticipation?


We do not just anticipate that we will always “be vigilant when working the lines,” and always “swing around while managing both sheets.” (LN posts 12,14.) We also anticipate that we will fail to be perfect. Smoothing a snag spot is an improvement that helps when we are solo or with inexperienced crew (which is more dangerous than being solo). It is a safety redundancy.


Guests want to help, and with a little guidance about fingers and going clockwise, they can handle jib sheets during a tack. I don’t want to be barking at them about getting it perfect every time; I want them them to think sailing is easy and fun so they come back. They can learn the hard parts later.


On my own, I used to be able to tack while managing both sheets when I sailed boats under 18'; now even on my 26' boat, winches are farther apart, the loads are greater, and I’m weaker. If there’s some wind, I need both hands to haul in the new genoa sheet.


I agree with Christopher that I would be looking for a better solution if I had to do something as complicated as partially furling and then unfurling the genoa during a tack. And I would be more intent on improving my technique if this happened with a small jib instead of just with the large genoa.


Christopher, would you please clarify for me your advice in Post #21 to cast off the leeward genoa sheet, then tack, while maintaining tension on the new leeward sheet as the genoa comes around the mast? I always start the tack, and release the sheet only after the genoa has stopped pulling me forward (i.e., it’s luffing more than just a bit), then haul in on the other side as fast as I can so that I don’t have to haul it in under load.


Christopher’s admirable desire not to let us off the hook generated a jeremiad touching on many subjects. I only want to add a comment on his view that because “this is a sport,” we should be practicing our technique and improving it constantly. Without getting into the hopeless question of what constitutes a sport, we can agree that people are legitimately quite different in their approaches to playing tennis, football, or golf. Perhaps what I do on my boat is a sport, but I see it as more akin to taking a walk (on an easy day) or going for a hike (on a blustery day) — except that it’s more expensive and not as healthy. When we go for a hike in the mountains, we should anticipate dangers like slippery trails and snakes and lions and bad weather, and be prepared, but having the most efficient stride or taking the most direct route is not the foremost consideration.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
clarify for me your advice in Post #21 to cast off the leeward genoa sheet, then tack, while maintaining tension on the new leeward sheet as the genoa comes around the mast? I always start the tack, and release the sheet only after the genoa has stopped pulling me forward (i.e., it’s luffing more than just a bit), then haul in on the other side as fast as I can so that I don’t have to haul it in under load.

We just have to anticipate and prevent fouling of the cast-off sheet. Check to assure no kinks present to catch in the fairlead, and that it will run free. The new sheet is much more likely to foul during the tack. But not if it is drawn taut before the old sheet is released.

Elementary? Sure. But to do it that way every time takes commitment. My goal is to recognize that when I don't, I have made a mistake.

Why classify that as a "mistake" on a casual sail with friends?

Sort of like waiting for a red light to turn green at midnight at an intersection with no other cars in sight. Why would a rational person just sit there like an idiot, slave to a law that if broken would have no witness or consequence?

He does it because it's a habit he chooses to have. He does it because he chooses to, not because he has to. And he do it because, some day, he might just not see that other car coming.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I always try to bring the boat thru the eye of the wind in roughly ten degree increments, rather than just 'putting the helm hard over' and pay out one sheet and take in the other as this is happening.
It's more difficult when single handing, however. Our AP does allow me to let the helm go while tacking, but does a full tack instantly and I have to really focus on both sheets.
Of course all this got a lot easier when I changed from the 135 to a 97 % jib. :rolleyes:

When under sail, I always have the forward hatch completely dogged down, too.
 

Cory B

Sustaining Member
Size of Sheets?

If our forward hatch is dogged down tight, I don't recall our Jib sheet ever snagging. However, our light weight spinnaker sheets will. Our spinnaker sheets are 5/16", and our Jib sheets are 1/2". My guess is the hatch gap is too small to catch our jib sheets. If I forget to fully tighten the hatch though, our jib sheets can catch.

Keeping the slack out as discussed above is the best way of avoiding the situation, but sometimes its slips our minds.
 

JSM

Member III
Or You could just go with larger diameter jib sheets!!

When we took delivery of our boat it came equipped what seemed like 1/2" well worn jib sheets that barley fit the winches. We could never understand why the PO did this until I changed them to the proper size and they once again fit underneath the hatch !
 

Afrakes

Sustaining Member
Bad hatch design

How come, in this conversation, there is no discussion of lousy sailboat hatch design. One would think that such a "common" problem could be cured through thoughtful design. Seamanship having to overcome lousy equipment is rather questionable. Just food for thought.
 

fool

Member III
How come, in this conversation, there is no discussion of lousy sailboat hatch design.


An excellent question. Personally, I try to deal with things that are within my realm of control. Putting a rope in the gap, switching out for a larger sheet, even updating the hatch are possibilities. Not too much I can do about the current lousy hatch design, or designing a new one, so no point in discussing it.

On one side of the barometer are things that can be easily accomplished in less than a day for relatively little money. I try to spend my time on that side of the barometer. On the other side there are things that are expensive, eat up a lot of time, and generally raise my blood pressure with frustration. Although I do work on that side of the barometer from time to time, I try not to live there for too long in one stretch.

Or perhaps your query is rhetorical and the answer is already there...

Max
 

Roger Janeway

Member II
How come, in this conversation, there is no discussion of lousy sailboat hatch design.

I actually love my 33-year old Lewmar Superhatch. I don't know whether the lens was ever replaced, but it is watertight, easy to open and close, and works beautifully after spending 33 years on the deck of a sailboat. I readily forgive it for grabbing my jib sheets when I don't control them well.
 

Roger Janeway

Member II
Just discovered that editing an old post does not create a new event on the "what's new" section, so I'll report for those interested in putting a line around their forward hatch to prevent snags that my line is a 69 inch length of 5/8" line, with a few inches overlapped as shown in the photo, to create a snug fit around the hatch.
 
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