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Survey of Mainsail Furling Systems 2018--Goods and Bads

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
On the E38 I have my first lazyjack system, and have been pleased with it.

It is simplified by being slippery Spectra, no blocks needed. The high attachment is on the second spreaders, not the mast.

The sail, even with full length battens, falls quite neatly in place. The lazyjacks are always set in place, not withdrawn while sailing. They interfere not at all with trim or aesthetics.

Downside is that the lazyjacks tend catch the battens upon hoisting. Boom must be exactly feathered to the wind.

Secondary downside is complication for the sail cover, if the jacklines are left deployed. My cover has slots, meaning multiple clasps to close.

Next sail cover will be standard unslotted cover. I will retract the lazyjacks to the mast before putting the cover on.
 
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Teranodon

Member III
Christian,

Lazyjacks are the next significant project on my boat. What design did you use (e.g., that of Guy Stevens in Good Old Boat)? Are your leg segments attached to the boom on the port and starboard sides, or do they pass freely under the boom (making a self-adjusting loop) through eye straps? Please advise.

Stefan
 

JSM

Member III
Mack Pack

I installed home made lazy jacks on our last boat to see how they would work out before spending money on anything else. After using for a season we decided we really liked the lazy jacks but found that it added another step to the already bothersome task of re-flaking the main and putting the sail cover back on.
After doing a lot of research and pricing we settled on the Mack Pack from Mack Sails. It incorporates under the boom , continuous loop lazy jacks into a very simple sail cover.
We liked it so much that when we bought the Ericson two years ago it was the first thing to be installed on the new boat. Since installing it we also incorporated a down haul on the main ( Thanks Mort Fleigleman !).
When dousing the main we head up into the wind, free the halyard and haul in on the down haul. The sail ends up in a neat pile which is easily tucked into the cover after we're docked. No one leaves the cockpit to deal with the main.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJryJX0U4ng
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
They all help

For another minor data point, we went with the UK Lazy Cradle in 2014. This uses a set of blocks up near the second spreaders on each side. The line to the four support-link supports is led down to a small horn cleat on either side just below the goose neck. The idea is that the whole thing can be pulled forward to the mast to tidy it up for sailing, optionally. Ours are terminated into some rods sewn in on either side of the sail cover halves.
While all of these systems have their compromises, we really like the built-in sail cover. Dragging the old sail cover up and laying it out on the furled sail each time was something we got tired of doing.
Note that with this system, there is no more need for sorting out all the folds and tying on gaskets, either.

Previously, lowering the main caused a spillage of canvas sail cloth on the cabin top which impeded the vision of the driver when returning to the moorage.
"All part of the fun" when operating a sailboat," But also probably a reason for the rise in popularity of furling mains in mast ($$$) or in boom ($$$$).

While we purists like to poke fun at those main sail handling schemes, we perhaps need to recall the 60's / 70's when "real sailors" made fun of roller furling for jibs. After all, Real Sailors always had hank-on sails with a forepeak jammed full of varying-overlap jibs stored in damp bags. :rolleyes:

That being said, my rigger friend tells me that due to continuous problems with spars that bend too much and sails that wrap too loosely, it will be a long time before in-mast furling approaches the reliability of furling jibs.

Our various "lazy jack" systems will remain a really good interim compromise, and "interim" is a flexible measurement of time......
:)
 
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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Details of Thelonious lazyjacks

Stefan,

The Thelonious II lazyjacks were "designed" and installed by a professional rigger. He feels these attachment points are key:


lazyjack 1.jpgjacklines 5.JPG

The sail cover issue:

What I didn't realize, in ordering a sail cover with slots, was that sail gaskets (sail ties) are needed even with lazyjacks.

Yes, the sail is neatly flaked upon lowering. However, when the sail cover is removed to go sailing again, you still need to motor out of harbor to the location where you raise the main. During this period the sail needs gaskets, so it doesn't blow around or expand inside the lazyjacks.

Also, gaskets are needed to compress the sail sufficient for the cover to fit neatly, especially with full length battens , and especially with my heavier weight Dacron mainsail (9.4 oz.).

If there are going to be gaskets anyhow, no need to leave the lazyjacks deployed. Before putting the sail cover on, they can simply be relaxed and led forward to the mast and hooked around the reef horns.

Ergo: no need for slots in the sail cover. The slots add 18 clasps to the cover. Ugh. They also let in water and dirt (not much).

A sail cover is bother enough without doubling the time to put it on.
 
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Mort Fligelman

Member III
Mailsail Furling

This has come up on another occasion....or many others I am sure.

I have used the "Dutchman" system by Martinus Van Breem(sp?) since 1979, on a previous 30', and on the 35-3.

I have used the downhaul (geezerizer) of my own design.....JSM Post above!

Love em both...

Look up Dutchman and previous posts!

FWIW
 

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
I'll add some comments about the Dutchman, but take note that these are newbie comments: I've only had the boat 2 years, and it's my first boat with a mainsail furling system and mainsail reefing. Some of these observations may be from things I'm doing wrong. I'd be happy to hear what others are doing.

As to the main purpose of the Dutchman, I give it an “A.” It flakes the main sail very well and very easily while lowering sail. I always lower the main single-handed whether I'm with others or not. I lubed the sail slugs & sail track this year, so it's almost a one-handed operation. I release the halyard, and the sail flakes itself neatly into even folds on alternating sides of the boom. In light winds, that's it--no sail ties required-- I just motor in like that, maybe pull the creases out of a few flakes, and throw the sail cover on. In stronger winds some of the flaked bundles can still catch the wind and fly up vertically, but they can never flop over the boom because of the Dutchman control lines. So, in stronger winds I will attach a sail tie or two while motoring in.

The system also looks great. The thin mono-filament lines are almost invisible in white or clear. I purchased some new line from Dutchman this year (about $40), about a week before discovering $10 rolls of clear weed-trimmer line at Ace Hardware. Now I have lots of spare line.

As for Cons:

Of course, the biggest one is that you have to have any sail altered before you can use it. The sail must have a dozen or more grommets/slots sewn/pressed into it so the control lines can pass through alternating sides of the sail. I have no idea what the added cost for this would be on a new sail.

Second, a standard sail cover won't fit over the control lines, so you have the problem of having two or three slits in the side of the sail cover.

Third, there is always some interplay between the topping lift and the sail itself (the control lines attach to the topping lift above, and to the foot of the sail below). If the topping lift is too loose and sagging, it catches on the roach or battens. If the topping lift is too tight, the control lines affect the shape of the sail by limiting its camber. So, it seems to require a bit of extra fiddling with the topping lift (as a result, I led my topping lift aft on the boom). And, then there's the newbie mistake of forgetting to raise the topping lift before releasing the main halyard. Rather than getting a cockpit full of boom, the control lines bear all the weight of the boom/sail and are drawn taught--a pretty surefire setup for catastrophically snapping the lines eventually.

I've also been experimenting with mainsail reefing. With a Dutchman, you can't control which side of the boom the reefed sail will bunch up on--it's always going to split evenly between the port and starboard sides of the boom. With a slug-footed main and flaked bundles on both sides of the boom, it's hard to work the reef outhaul around the mast without it scrunching up a whole bunch of sail underneath it. I'm wondering if most non-Dutchman sailors bunch the sail up to one side or the other of the boom when reefing?

Here's a copy of the Dutchman manual for anyone interested:

http://dutchmar.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Dutchman-B-2013.pdf
 
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kiwisailor

Member III
Blogs Author
Dutchman Sail System Pros and Cons

Our old North Sails had a Dutchman system setup. When I ordered my new Mack Sails last year I considered a MackPack (aka Stack Pack) but decided to have them install a new Dutchman setup.

The upsides of a Dutchman systems are raising the mainsail is very easy even with full length battons as there are no lazy jack lines etc. for the battons to hung up on. As mentioned by Kenneth K when dropping the main it folds perfectly onto the boom because of the filament lines that weave through the sail. When we drop the main I leave it uncovered and often untied until we are back on the mooring. For single-hand sailors this is a big advantage.

The downsides of the Dutchman are the need for a topping lift and correct adjustment of the topping lift. This was an issue for me as each time the mainsail was raised or lowered I'd have to go forward and adjust the topping lift at the boom (I'm in the process of bringing the topping lift line back to the cockpit). This last month I installed a rigid vang that supports the boom and my topping lift is now pretty much set and forget, if you have a Dutchman system a rigid vang will make life a lot easier. As for reefing the way the sail is forced to fold when lowering the main will likely force you to use the reefing cringle/rings only on one side of the boom to the goose neck horn, at least it does on my setup. Finally, one other downside depending on your view point is you will need a slug footed main setup on the boom, Dutchman's don't work very well, if at all, with a loose footed main. Our mainsail cover has 3 zippers installed that line up with the filaments that come down from the topping lift to the pockets on the foot of the sail, I have found that our mainsail stays very dry as the sail cover provides excellent cover, no long zipper or opening across the top like a Stack Pack to allow rain to pool on the sail.
 

debonAir

Member III
I would never have considered a Dutchman had it not come with my 35-3. Now I am a BIG fan. The slotted main cover is a bit strange, but sometimes I find doing the slots first is handy for keeping the cover in place in wind and aligning it fore-aft well, so maybe even a plus.

Combined with tides marine track, I simply pop the halyard clutch and the main drop and flakes itself neatly on top of the boom and stays there regardless of wind and heading. Actually brings a smile each time I watch it still.
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
Question

With lazy jacks or the Dutchman system is it possible to lower the main without heading into the wind? If yes, how far off the wind do the systems work before you have issues?

Thanks,

Mark
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
With lazyjacks, the sail can be lowered for reefing on any point of sail, even dead downwind. (Hoisting is constrained by the tendency of lower full length batten to catch on the rig).
 
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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Main control

As for pointing up when raising or lowering, it's not a 'binary' decision.
Remember that, no matter how you contain the sail as it drops or before you raise it, the more degrees you are away from TW, the more the cloth or slugs will drag on the side of the slot from the pressure. And, more wind speed, more pressure.
Having the battens and the cloth drag on rigging and spreaders is another major amount of friction.

All of our mains have used a "2 + 2" batten layout for the last 30 years or so. Not nearly as hard to run up or down as full battens, but still can have a lot of resistance when we are off the wind over 8 to 10 degrees or so (picking a round number).

Actually, even when head to wind and the TW is 15 or above, it can get challenging to get the main to drop without going up to the mast and pulling down the folds.

Also, my friends that have tried the Dutchman system have had to replace the fish line regularly. UV appears to weaken it and it breaks. My local sailmaker advises against it, citing poorer sail shaping and chafe problems. Like a lot of rigging schemes, it requires attention and maintenance... and is not a "buy and forget" solution.
(Very few systems on our boats stay reliable without regular maintenance, anyway.) :)
 

debonAir

Member III
I've not ever tried dropping the main while not heading up at least close to the wind. In any kind of breeze, the sail would be pushed into the dutchman lines causing enough drag to make the sail harder to drop. Just the luff slide drag would be enough to keep the sail from dropping on its own really. Maybe one of the in-mast or in-boom furlers could do it? Reefing is ok since I'm up there to put in the reef so I can pull the sail down.

I have no idea how old my dutchman monofilament line is so can't talk to its longevity. It is just monofilament fishing line (for pretty big fish I imagine) and costs just 10's of dollars to replace.

My experiences with lazy jacks have been less than happy, mostly getting battens hung up on boats with sticky luffs: walk fwd, pull the main down a few feet, go back and winch it back up.. oops the batten caught again, walk fwd.. repeat.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I think a related issue in all this is the existing sail track and slugs. Original equipment is usually worn out. A Tides Sail track and family of slides makes a vast difference.

Reefing or lowering the main dead downwind is necessary in offshore conditions, where heading up is not an attractive option.
 
L

Leslie Newman

Guest
I recently examined a Harken Battcar system installed on a boat and really like how easily the main can be raised and lowered. I'm thinking of adding that system to my boat.
 

kiwisailor

Member III
Blogs Author
I recently examined a Harken Battcar system installed on a boat and really like how easily the main can be raised and lowered. I'm thinking of adding that system to my boat.

Ohh yeah we just got batt cars on our new sail to go with the full length battons. The sail drops like a rock now!
 

RHenegar

Member I
EZ Jack System

My E32 came with an EZ Jack System. This is essentially a Lazy Jack system that can be retracted back along the boom. The retracted lines are clipped into a quick release device. The two lines that tension the jack lines are run back to the cockpit and tied off on cleats. When I leave the dock the lazy jacks are stowed so when it comes time to raise the sail there are no lines for battens to get caught on. When it come time to drop the sail, by pulling on the lines to tension the jack it causes those line to pop out of the quick release. I tension the jack lines and drop the sails. When I get back to the dock I release the tension on the lazy jack, pull it back to the stowed position and reattach the quick releases. My mainsail cover has no need for lazy jack holes. I am thinking off modifying this system to work on a Stack-Pack type cover. I saw a system called Jiffy-Jack that is similar, but it appears to use a standard caribiner type clips to hold the lines in the stowed position requiring you to go to the mast to deploy.

BTW I have a friend with and E38 using the Dutchman system. He put new sail on the boat and I guess because the sails were so stiff, they didn't want to flake. They had to be helped. My guess is that issue will go away.
 
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