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Winch & Rope Clutch Placement on Cabin top (E32)

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
I pulled my old winches and line clutch (port side) due to some water penetration through the cabin top. All cabin-top hardware was installed on teak mounting plates. Failed sealant under the old, cracked teak plates was causing the leaks. As per recommendation received here, I plan on having new mounting plates made from G-10 (or similar material). I was okay reusing the old original Shaefer triple rope clutch, but I couldn't find a matching one for the starboard side. It was probably time for new ones anyway. I went with Garhauer 11-13s, which I'm very pleased with.

The part I'm scratching my head over is more the location and the shape of the new mounting plates. Like most of the later Bruce King designed Ericsons, my coach roof has a down-slope angle from both fore-to aft and from center-to-outboard. The teak mounting plates served, in part, to level the hardware on this sloping surface.

Here's the original configuration:20171029_155625.2.jpg


With the smallish Shaefer clutch, I thought the original positioning was fine. The Garhauer clutches are about 40% larger, though, so if I install them in the same positions, they only leaves 3 in between the clutch and winch. I'm thinking that's not enough spacing.

If I re-position the winch to the back of the cabin-top, I can get the spacing up to about 8 inches (the actual winch for this location is a 17-ST).

20180216_174753.jpg 20180216_175158.jpg

Enter the pros and cons..... Moving the winch means I'll have the always visible scars from filling the original 5 mounting holes. I might also have to make the winch pad higher as the aft position will cause it to sit lower than it is now. Keeping it forward is simpler, but I think 3 inches might be too cramped for working 3 lines around a winch. Either position is readily accessible through the headliner zipper below.

I have a similar situation on the starboard side 20180216_174812.2.jpg. There was no rope clutch here to start, so I'll have to move the #18 winch inboard to get the alignment right, and aft to get the spacing. The cleat behind the #18 will likely go (is there any reason to keep the cleat once I put in a clutch?) The #10 winch and the forward cleat will likely stay where they are.

I'm curious what other have done.
How much spacing I should shoot for between clutch and winch?
How important it is to set the angles right on the mounting blocks?
What's the best way to patch the old holes to hide my re-working of the area?

Thanks....
 
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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
How much spacing I should shoot for between clutch and winch?
How important it is to set the angles right on the mounting blocks?
What's the best way to patch the old holes to hide my re-working of the area?

A foot or two is good. Just so the winching arm can reach both.
The danger is a riding turn. So the angle is pretty important.
I just put bolts back in the old holes, for cosmetics. I countersunk one set of old holes to accept big, flat-head machine screws. It looks OK.



 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
That's a useful thread.

I propose also considering Trex decking material for such jobs as mounts and spacers. Trex, and its competitors, are impervious to everything, pretty much noncompressible, and easily worked with wood tools. The stuff holds an edge, can be routed, doesn't split. The gray color fades slightly in UV, to which it is pretty much impervious. Simulated wood grain can merely be sanded off.

The application of these decking products to boats is not approved by anybody, but since I built a deck years ago I have successfully used leftover pieces for everything from water-tank wedgesto anchor chocks and dock steps.

Trex etc. isn't structural, but for marine use has every other good property-- and it's cheap.
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
Ken,

I reorganized my entire cabin top on both sides of the companionway so I had to consider many of your issues.

I would arrange everything without worrying about covering holes. Gelcoat repairs to fill old holes in the smooth white gelcoat will be almost invisible. I did my own and color matching is the hardest part but you can get a local pro if this is not your thing.
Your new clutches open forward vs aft. Make sure the clutches don't interfere with the dodger. I would lay them out with the handles open to account for this.
The clutches have a max angle the line should exit going to the winch. The further away they are from the winch, the smaller this angle becomes.
Line up the center of the new clutch bank to the line feed side of the winch (stbd side of the winch looking forward) to minimize the angle for each line.
Consider the location of the winch for: being able to swing the handle with the dodger up, reaching it comfortably (from cockpit, from companionway), interference of underside nuts with interior pieces like ceiling battens and interior trim (far aft on my boat put some nuts in conflict with the teak trim box hiding the back of the speedo/depth gauges).
I needed one mounting block for a winch and I used white Starboard. It is more incompressible than teak. The color goes all the way through, UV stable, no paint needed. It is MUCH easier to shape than G10. The butyl tape underneath has stayed leak free. I have used Starboard for many spacers like this.
I think G10 is stronger than you need for this, too hard to shape and I prefer no need to paint.

Mark
 
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toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
That's a useful thread.

I propose also considering Trex decking material for such jobs as mounts and spacers. Trex, and its competitors, are impervious to everything, pretty much noncompressible, and easily worked with wood tools. The stuff holds an edge, can be routed, doesn't split. The gray color fades slightly in UV, to which it is pretty much impervious. Simulated wood grain can merely be sanded off.

The application of these decking products to boats is not approved by anybody, but since I built a deck years ago I have successfully used leftover pieces for everything from water-tank wedgesto anchor chocks and dock steps.

Trex etc. isn't structural, but for marine use has every other good property-- and it's cheap.

Hmm, thanks. I need a wedge spacer for transom hardware that is going to be frequently wet, and was kind of in a quandary for what to use. And a couple of other things too, come to think of it. Will pick up a piece at Home Despot and play around with it.

One caution, and the reason that I would never use it for an actual deck, where I live, is that it is extremely flammable. I helped a friend build a wheelchair ramp and took home all the scraps. They were my “one match” firestarters all winter.
 

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author

The danger is a riding turn. So the angle is pretty important.

Yes, I had a riding turn with the original setup while I was hoisting the dingy with a spare halyard.

I'm thinking of eliminating the beveled base under the clutch. While a "level" clutch (level from left-to-right, by using a tilted base) might look better than a tilted clutch (one flush with the tilted cabin top), mounting the clutch directly to the cabin top keeps the rope lower in relation to the winch, which should provide a better feed.

Your new clutches open forward vs aft. Make sure the clutches don't interfere with the dodger. I would lay them out with the handles open to account for this.

You bring up a GREAT point that I had completely overlooked. The Shaefer handles opened to aft. The Garhauer clutch handles have two raised positions; one vertical, where they are 4" higher than the clutch body, and one fully-forward, where they lie 3 1/4" forward of the clutch body. This forward handle position would definitely impact the dodger if I don't place it carefully.

Which brings up a question regarding the Garhauer Clutches: Is the full-forward position of the handle only used for inserting/removing a line from the clutch (in which case I could just unsnap the dodger while changing lines), or is the forward handle position used in the normal course of releasing line tension?

In any case, you've stopped me from drilling new holes before I've verified the fit with the dodger in place!!!

The clutches have a max angle the line should exit going to the winch. The further away they are from the winch, the smaller this angle becomes.

Are you referring to a max lateral (left-right) angle the the line exits the clutch, or max vertical angle, or both?
 
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markvone

Sustaining Member
Both

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by markvone
The clutches have a max angle the line should exit going to the winch. The further away they are from the winch, the smaller this angle becomes.

Are you referring to a max lateral (left-right) angle the line exits the clutch, or max vertical angle, or both?


My Spinlock XTS installation instructions specify 10 degrees max in both lateral and vertical directions. I couldn't find the info on the Garhauer site but I'm sure the angle applies in both directions. I'm sure the clutches will work with the line at a greater angle, you will just have more friction and possibly more line wear as the angle increases. If you need to exceed the angle for some reason I would arrange your highest loaded lines to run through the clutch with the most direct path to the winch (with the lowest angle).

Mark
 
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Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
Thanks Mark. My Garhauers came with no instructions at all. Do your Spinlocks open forward like the Garhauers?

I'm looking at Lewmar DC-1s right now, it appears they might open aft.

Does anyone know?
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Yes, the Lewmars open aft and close forward.

[And see the comparison to Spinlocks lower in the thread]
 
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kapnkd

kapnkd
I'm curious what other have done.
How much spacing I should shoot for between clutch and winch?
How important it is to set the angles right on the mounting blocks?
What's the best way to patch the old holes to hide my re-working of the area?

Thanks....[/QUOTE]

Hi Ken,

On our '73 E-32, we went with what Ericson recommended but did not level out the winches or clutches and instead simply mounted them directly to the cabin top. It has worked well for us over the years. In our restoration process, we've repainted the interior (including cabin/coach roof). We created trim plates out of slightly thinned/planned down "PlasTeak" to help the inner liner handle the loads of the through mounted bolts. Looks better and the inner liner isn't stressed anymore.

Cabin Winches.jpgCabin Top Interior Winch Mounts.jpg
 

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
On our '73 E-32, we went with what Ericson recommended but did not level out the winches or clutches and instead simply mounted them directly to the cabin top. It has worked well for us over the years.


That's a nice looking boat. You're probably one of the few "original owners" I've come across on this site. That speaks well of you and your boat.....

The cabin top on the 32-3 slopes downward to aft, so with no spacer, I suspect there might be a tendency for the clutch to feed mid-drum on the winch, rather than at the bottom. Raising the clutch on a spacer (as Ericson did) seems like it would only make the problem worse. As such, I'm thinking of putting spacers under the winches but not the clutches.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
There was no rope clutch here to start, so I'll have to move the #18 winch inboard to get the alignment right, and aft to get the spacing.

My '85 32-3 came with a clutch on the starboard side. It worked fine. Looks like this:

starbd clutch 85 32-3.jpg
 

tenders

Innocent Bystander
I'm curious what other have done.
How much spacing I should shoot for between clutch and winch?
How important it is to set the angles right on the mounting blocks?
What's the best way to patch the old holes to hide my re-working of the area?

Thanks....

Hi Ken,

On our '73 E-32, we went with what Ericson recommended but did not level out the winches or clutches and instead simply mounted them directly to the cabin top. It has worked well for us over the years. In our restoration process, we've repainted the interior (including cabin/coach roof). We created trim plates out of slightly thinned/planned down "PlasTeak" to help the inner liner handle the loads of the through mounted bolts. Looks better and the inner liner isn't stressed anymore.

View attachment 23727View attachment 23728[/QUOTE]

I like that Plasteak approach. Why not keep its original thickness?

Let’s talk about that AC too. Doesn’t that location risk allowing the cabin to flood if you get pooped by a wave...and doesn’t the AC intrude bigly into the cockpit...and don’t the mechanicals of the AC rust terribly in that location? Don’t get me wrong, it looks great from inside the cabin, but....
 
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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Regarding the popular Lewmar clutches, I have a complaint:

They tend not to stay open, and to flop closed and lock.

Amended: To keep them from flopping closed, you just have to remember to push them all the way open, and "flat." Not a design flaw after all, more like an operator flaw.
 
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kapnkd

kapnkd
That's a nice looking boat. You're probably one of the few "original owners" I've come across on this site. That speaks well of you and your boat.....

The cabin top on the 32-3 slopes downward to aft, so with no spacer, I suspect there might be a tendency for the clutch to feed mid-drum on the winch, rather than at the bottom. Raising the clutch on a spacer (as Ericson did) seems like it would only make the problem worse. As such, I'm thinking of putting spacers under the winches but not the clutches.

Thanks Ken, she's the "Never Ending Project" but well worth it and reverently considered as a "Member of the Family". If you go to my profile, there are a couple more generic overall photos of her and the work we're now doing to the cockpit sole with "Eva-Teak". Interesting how your cabin slopes as it does but do understand the need for your pads now. Looking forward to more of your postings and photos.
-kerry
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
Hi Christian,

My Spinlock XTS clutches have a two stage release. The picture below shows the handles at the start of the load release.
They have enough friction in this position that they stay where you leave them.

To release line load you move the handles all the way forward and down flat, over a detent that I would call locked open.

Mark
 

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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Very much better!

(Amended: the Lewmars stay open fine if you remember to open them all the way and push flat)
 
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Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
Spinlock / Lewmar / Garhauer

I'm finding it frustrating to locate the best clutches for my application.

The E32 is not a "big" boat, so having enough space behind the dodger to run a triple clutch to a winch is not so easy.

I was thrilled with the Garhuaer's when I got them---all metal construction, good price, rope range of 5/16-9/16. I spoke to a rep yesterday. He said the handles have to opened fully forward to effect a complete release of the line. With those long, metal handles, that's about 4 1/2 inches I have to move the clutches aft to clear the dodger. That sent me looking for aft-handle-opening clutches like the Lewmar.

Lemwar DC-2s are probably rated a bit large for a 32' boat. The DC-1s are a bit cheaper, but still rated at 1100# load (vs 1000# for the all-metal Garhauer's). However, the grip range is much smaller on the Lewmar DC-1s: only 8-10mm or 10-12 mm. 10-12 mm is sometimes quoted as 3/8 to 7/16, other times as 3/8 to 1/2. Hmm? And, I'm not crazy about $200 hardware with plastic bodies and plastic handles. Now, add Christians comment about the handles not staying open. That could be annoying at the least, and troubling for a single-hander.

I haven't heard any Spinlock complaints yet. Their pricing seems to be the highest. Still using a plastic body, but, apparently, metal handles, which sound better. Also, Spinlocks have a wider grip-range, similar to Garhauer. However, the forward opening handles cause me the same problem I already have.

It's almost frustrating enough to make one take up a simple and inexpensive sport, like golf.
 
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kapnkd

kapnkd

I like that Plasteak approach. Why not keep its original thickness?

Let’s talk about that AC too. Doesn’t that location risk allowing the cabin to flood if you get pooped by a wave...and doesn’t the AC intrude bigly into the cockpit...and don’t the mechanicals of the AC rust terribly in that location? Don’t get me wrong, it looks great from inside the cabin, but....[/QUOTE]
------------------------------------------

I thinned the 1/2" PlasTeak mostly for aesthetic reasons plus it made taking the contour of the coach roof more readily/easily was all. ...PlasTeak (https://www.plasteak.com/) is a great product and easy to work with plus planing it down was easy to do - so why not?

As for the AC unit....I installed my first unit back in the mid '70's while still living in Florida. I've been through 2 additional units since that time. They do hold up surprisingly well even in the salt water environment so corrosion and rust have not really been a problem. As for the ability to withstand being pooped or flooded - I've only suffered one knockdown due to my own stupidity of tying off the spinnaker sheet briefly in light air and then getting hit by "Murphy" and a quick heavy air out of nowhere!. The boat went to her far side, filled the cockpit with water to the worst I've ever encountered.

I had built a bridge deck over the unit plus have a locking front cover that helps protect the unit. NO water was able to penetrate the cabin whatsoever. As for cockpit space, the bridge deck has proved to be an asset for easier entrance to the cabin plus an area to set food fare on while cruising in lighter airs. We've never felt infringed on for cockpit space over the years. (The included photo shows a better view of how it looks and works hopefully. (The added "EvaTeak" is yet to be finished in the cockpit sole this spring when it warms up.)

BTW - We did the Trans Erie Race back in '99 and took a 1st in our class PLUS a 1st OVERALL. Funny part was it drove a bunch of them crazy that I'd left the AC unit in as they had pulled everything off their boats including cushions to make their boats lighter for the race. ...Comfort, Cruising and Racing - hard to beat an Ericson!! ;-)))

Cockpit 1.jpg
 
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