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Ais. Radar. Thoughts.

e38 owner

Member III
Our boat has an Ais receiver. Last yr at night we were motoring up from Mexico. Had two people on watch. A Mexican fishing boat came out of the dark abyss. Very little lights. No transmitting Ais. Came very close.
I prefer to come up the coast at night and am considering options. Any thoughts
New Ais transceiver
Or
New radar
Used radar
Furuno iPad wireless radar

I have some hi tech racing sails so if I choose radar. I also need mounting. A rear pole appears to be a boat buck. For the few times I venture out at night in foreign waters. 3 boat bucks seem a little steep. But if it saves our lifes it is a bargain
 

Rocinante33

Contributing Partner
Our boat has an Ais receiver. Last yr at night we were motoring up from Mexico. Had two people on watch. A Mexican fishing boat came out of the dark abyss. Very little lights. No transmitting Ais. Came very close.
I prefer to come up the coast at night and am considering options. Any thoughts
New Ais transceiver
Or
New radar
Used radar
Furuno iPad wireless radar

I have some hi tech racing sails so if I choose radar. I also need mounting. A rear pole appears to be a boat buck. For the few times I venture out at night in foreign waters. 3 boat bucks seem a little steep. But if it saves our lifes it is a bargain
The AIS transceiver won’t help in the scenario you have described but radar would. The Mexican fishing boat *♂️ is probably not monitoring AIS.

Have you checked Garhauer for a radar pole? Maybe they had a reasonably priced version.
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Infrared sensors?

I have not done any research on IR equipment that is available, inexpensive enough or would perform such a task for pleasure boaters, but would an Infrared scanner help? Like a "radar" for infrared targets? I can't think of anything else that would spot unlit targets at night or maybe in fog that are made of mostly wood or fiberglass, for example. I wonder if fog would be a problem for IR, though. Maybe I'll ask a sales person about IR products and their limitations at the upcoming Seattle International Boat Show. FLIR/Raymarine is always there.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
For the few times I venture out at night in foreign waters.

And a lookout would still be required.

I'd like to hear from somebody with current radar--is it worth the install, maintenance and improved confidence? The last radar trip I made, under power in fog Maine to Newport three years ago, we couldn't have gone without it. But the skipper was glued to his radar screen all day and night. He had complete trust. I never got there myself.
 

gadangit

Member III
IR would be fantastic, Radar has it's use as does AIS. None will "ever" negate the need for a watch in a busy seaway.

I've settled on AIS for now, no radar. Someday when I'm socked in pea soup I'll be wishing for something like IR or radar. I probably will make decisions that limit trying to move the boat in such conditions though.
 

Rocinante33

Contributing Partner
For the few times I venture out at night in foreign waters.

And a lookout would still be required.

I'd like to hear from somebody with current radar--is it worth the install, maintenance and improved confidence? The last radar trip I made, under power in fog Maine to Newport three years ago, we couldn't have gone without it. But the skipper was glued to his radar screen all day and night. He had complete trust. I never got there myself.
Radar is a great set of “eyes” in the dark or the pea soup fog. But it is another watch to keep, and, as noted, it doesn’t obviate keeping a good watch either. It will tell you about the breakwater you are approaching in the fog but it won’t show the rock which is right at the waterline and could sink the boat!

The new radars can “see” close range (less than 50 meters) much better than old units could. Those had a dead zone close around the boat.
 

Rick R.

Contributing Partner
We have both

We have AIS received by our SH VHF radio. We have a Garmin radar dome mounted on a Garhauer pole off the stern. Both are displayed on our Garmin 740 chart plotter.

We we have been in heavy fog many times and the radar has been invaluable. It has also helped after dark and in heavy Florida rain squalls.

Considering what happened to Vestas 11th Hr Racing killing a fisherman off Hong Kong last week when they encountered his boat at 0230 in a collision, radar seems like it is worth as many boat bucks as it costs.
 
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Vagabond39

Member III
AIS or Radar

AIS depend on the others. Radar needs a reflecting vessel, or a plastic one to hoist a Radar Reflector. If the seas are running, clutter may mask small vessels.
IR will pick up body heat, even in tropical areas. It will show who is wearing a life jacket as that prevents the torso from radiating as much heat. It will even show decomposing Mary Jane, through a steel hull. Or the heat from an engine and exhaust.
Thus if the other craft is manned, motoring, or smuggling, it will be visible.:)
My experience with IR was from Tampa, the Keys, around Cuba to Puerto Rico.
Bikini clad bodies show up very well!
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
I purchased a cheap second-hand radar that has been of limited value - though that’s partly my fault. But the whole purpose, other than the toy-factor, was for a learning experience. I probably mounted the antenna too high on the mast which created too large a dead zone around the boat, for the in-close information I needed in the dark and fog of lower Multnomah Channel and Scappoose Bay. And the way I first mounted the display, I couldn’t really see it from the helm. It takes some practice to recognize what you’re seeing, and most small boats don’t seem to show up at all. Radar also has other uses such as tracking squalls and measuring your anchor circle in tight anchorages.

There are also some books out there to teach you how to get the most out of your radar. I’ve purchased a couple.
Sparks, Radar Made Simple For Cruisers. I cannot recommend this book. While it hints at some practical ways to use radar, beyond “steer around the dots,” the writing is awful and riddled with errors, including whole sections of text misplaced and repeated. It doesn’t seem to have been edited at all. The author’s idea of “math shortcuts” seem strange and confused to me, when the original calculation was straightforward. Most of the information could be found more easily simply by reading the manual for your equipment.
Burch, Radar For Mariners. From the prolific author and Starpath school guy. I’d like to report that this is the better value, but I confess that it is still in my “to be read” pile. I’ve only skimmed it a bit.

I’ve had AIS for several years now and it is great when it works. It shows me commercial shipping long before I can see it, on the River. And I can be certain that commercial shipping sees me. But most private boats (and even commercial fishing boats) still lack AIS. And too many of those that do have it seem to leave it turned on all the time at the dock. One thing to be careful of is the time since last signal. Class B units might only send a signal once every six minutes. Boats can move a long way in six minutes! Sometimes a target will show up on the display, but when you interrogate it, that signal was “last detected 2 hrs 19 min ago!” Where is it now? And forget about clowns who try to tell you that they can just use web-based apps on their phones. That’s for entertainment purposes only.

Bottom line, neither AIS or Radar is a foolproof system. If I was buying only one, I’d get AIS. More bang for the buck.
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
I would get the radar first. Commercial traffic is fairly predictable and shows up big time on the radar. The real problem up here on the straights is the non commercial guys, particularly the Anglers. These guys look at their boats as a platform to cast off of and have no clue that that platform can kill them. I've seen them doing 27kn in heavy fog and not paying attention to what's around them. The closest call that I've had is had is dodging a large cabin cruiser between Port Angeles and Victoria. There was no one on the bridge when he went roaring by. My Raymarine digital radar showed his approach line, speed, and the collision point so I knew to dodge. No AIS here. The Raymarine will track up to 10 targets including buoys as I've found. This tracking ability is the best part of the system. I have found that I can track even small glass boats by getting short returns and getting the tracking feature to lock on and give me a course and speed.

Cheap equipment here is not necessarily a good buy.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
It sounds to me like in a target-rich environment of fishing boats and light commercial traffic where fog is prevalent, radar is more necessity than luxury. And it sounds like the new units work well.

So once again, all solutions are local.

It so happens that sailing to Hawaii I find absolutely no need for radar. Any vessel you encounter out there is spouting AIS and probably a thousand feet long. A "big" AIS -- one with a dedicated screen rather than sharing a chart plotter -- changes everything. A Vesper Watchmate with antenna splitter is about $1000 and my most-used nav tool.

Funny that radar doesn't fit me, but might be all the difference for a 20-foot center console fishing boat in Maine.

Good discussion.
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
I spent some years sailing So Cal and only once would radar have been useful and that was 15 miles west of Ventura when everything went blotto in the misty stuff. Radar would have been incredibly useful off the San Francisco coast over the many years I sailed there. The method used instead was stop the boat, listen carefully for surf and/or engine noises etc. Sailing boats would have snuck up on me. I can remember saying "my dead reckoning says turn right to enter the Gate, Gulp" Both radar and a good plotter would have taken the nervous out of the decision. One of the neat things on this system (Raymarine E-90 and radar is you can lay the radar over the plotter and show the radar superimposed over the chart or split the plotter and show the chart on one side and the radar on the other. Or you can have the radar only. It makes for great flexibility.

I have to admit I am a cheap Scotsman and I would have chocked at the price of this system. It came with the boat when I purchased it and I have enjoyed the system ever since. Prior to this boat, I was blundering through the fog in a 26 foot boat. This is much less nerve wracking. The fog can form so quickly up here that it keeps you on your toes.

If you have enough loose cash laying around, AIS is also very cool. Having each AIS user layed over the plotter with a course line and speed with the impact point displayed along with the call sign and contact channel is pretty cool. The FCC is increasing the Class B transmission power from 2 watts to 5 watts which will make a huge difference in your visibility to other traffic. Plan on spending about $1,000.
 

Vagabond39

Member III
Radar, FLIR, or AIS

Radar, FLIR, and human sight are all Line of Sight. All depend on your hight above the water, and that of what they detect. Each have inherent advantages and disadvantages. As do the sensor mounting, and the rock and roll of the platform they are mounted on.
For Radar, the problems really show up when someone else has a compatible unit transmitting on the identical frequency, and your monitor blossoms, without showing anything. And that other transmitter need not be within the range of your radar.
If you are rolling or pitching, you will get clutter. A higher Antenna mount will increase range, and also increase the pendulum effect.
An FLIR sensor has less mass, and not transmitting, will be less affected by the water. However it will only show what you are looking toward.
AIS, like radar can pick up transmitters far over the horizon. You still need to detect vessels without AIS.
 

Vagabond39

Member III
Advances in Electronics

Yes, Electronics and signal processing has advanced. Sylvania invented the Space Charge Vacuum Tube that worked off battery voltage, and would eliminate the vibrator hum in the car radios that had become popular. But Bell Labs did the Transfer Resistor, and Fairchild put several on one substrate, called it an integrated circuit. Sperry came out with a passive ranging sonar they called PUFFS. Then the Navy launched a strange looking cruiser with a sloped superstructure, with hundreds of small antenna, called a phased array radar. Pulse steering. Digital replaced vacuum tube computers. MOS devices replaced Bipolar power hungry, faster memory and computers. Side Scan sonar and solid state radar using SAW devices and beam forming Data Processing have improved both. The Radar Magnatron has retired to the Smithsonian, as has the ENIAC Computer, the Raytheon Mini Ranger, and wheel lock musket.
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
IR system

I stopped by the FLIR-Raymarine booth today. Their IR and visual camera turret combo with automated scanning of about 90 degrees costs about $8k list price. Pretty far out of the ballpark for me and not all that easy to install on a sailing craft. It would have to be gimballed, maybe. It's among the higher cost IR units in the FLIR lineup. The cheaper ones are all manual. I only saw one other vendor with IR turrets and there was no auto scan. Both could be manually rotated 360 degrees.

I don't think the range of the IR would make it worthwhile for collision avoidance over radar. They're really cool though.
 

Ryan L

s/v Naoma
I agree with the posts stating it depends on the local conditions where you sail. Personally I think I'd choose AIS if I could only have one or the other in the waters we sail. AIS is less expensive, uses A LOT less power, is easier to use, and will work to identify nearly all ships. If I were in an area with a lot of fog and/or copious small boat traffic I may re-think that choice.

Other advantages of AIS is the ability to know the vessel name (and often details such as size, turn rate, etc). Having the name (and/or MMSI) makes it much easier to hail ships if needed.

Some of the vesper watchmate units (and presumably others) have an outstanding anchor watch feature, can be viewed on tablets, and can provide position and AIS data for apps/programs like iSailor and OpenCPN.

Since someone asked about the "new" radars I'll chime in to report that we have a B&G 4G radar connected to a B&G Zeus2 chart plotter. Someone mentioned a wifi radar so I figure it is worth mentioning that the radar can be used via wifi via the B&G network (it used to be called "Go Free" but I think it has a different name now). The wifi allows complete radar control as well as control of all features of the chart plotter except autopilot. In other words it is relatively easy (but not necessarily inexpensive) to build a system that allows complete access and control of AIS and Radar from a tablet as well as a plotter. A less expensive workaround is to get something like a vYacht wifi unit that allows you to easily network your AIS with a GPS and receive the info over wifi for iSailor, OpenCPN, etc.

I'm kind of all over the place with this reply, sorry. I blame the tropical heat...

As far as performance of the "new" radar it is exceptional in shorter ranges. To the point that we have used it to move through a field of small mooring buoys and some anchored boats in pitch black darkness. It is so detailed that we can often see each individual hull of a catamaran when at close range. I've even tracked birds with it. On the other hand we find that our radar (and really most small boat stern-pole mounted radars I've used) are not particularly effective at "seeing" other small boats more than a mile or so in anything other than ideal conditions.

A benefit of radar that hasn't been mentioned but that may be relevant depending on location is its ability to track rain. VERY useful in dodging tropical squalls.

A benefit of AIS that hasn't been mentioned (I think) is the ability to see where other boats are anchored nearby. Especially useful if you have AIS networked to some kind of chart plotter or app.

AIS can now be tracked via satellite (even class B). This can then be seen on websites like marinetraffic.com (something like that) amongst others. Tracking a vessel's AIS in real-time via satellite is a subscription feature but Nicole's dad uses it to follow us and he loves it. It even sends him an email for stuff like when we change position or stop moving. Rescue agencies can use this info to see the history of your course/speed and your present position if you're still transmitting. Huge benefit in my opinion.

Ok, that's all off the top of my head.

Ryan
SV Naoma
TwoAfloat.com
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
Happy birthday to me! The decision to plunge ahead has occurred. I have ordered a AMECB360 Widelink B600 SOTOMA 5 watt transceiver from Milltech Marine. It will fit superbly with my Raymarine E-90 and digital Raymarine Radar. The 52" AIS antenna will fly from the radar post at the stern to minimize the distortions from the VHF antenna. The calculated range of this arrangement is 16.2 miles. Next week I go to Portland where I will pick it up. The following week installation will begin.

Modernization happens quickly. In 2011, I was dead reckoning and now I'm going Beep! Beep.
 

gadangit

Member III
This is a picture of our AIS overlay coming into Galveston after our trip to Isla Mujeres. It was a bit of a white knuckle return in the late evening, I was really hoping to get inside the jetties before sunset. We had 25kts on the stern with 6-8' following seas. We were wing on wing (jib poled to starboard) running as deep as we could with only turning to starboard as an option. The vast majority of these boats are anchored, but they are still pesky when the waves are pushing you around.

Being able to pick a boat and see how fast it was going helped us to see that Industrial Hedland went from 15kts to 7kts which changed my plan from dive in behind to going in front. Gaschem Atlantic had to turn to port to get into the inbound fairway, so I knew I only needed to get across to the right side of the fairway ahead of him. I didn't enjoy any of those decisions.

Chris
Shakedown Trip 2018 - AIS Galveston jetties entry.jpg
 
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