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Cheap Boat was Not a Bargain

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Here is a contribution under the recurring topic of "what is this boat worth?"

You may recall the discussion at the time. I have edited the private message somewhat.


I made the mistake of hurriedly purchasing a 1976 Ericson 32 for the kingly sum of $3600, thinking I could just sail it away with my wife and our 7-year-old. I started posting about it on the Erickson Yacht Owner's list, and [members] started cluing me in as to what would be ahead with this boat, i.e., that it needed a total refit be seaworthy and enjoyable. I argued that it was a miraculous exception to the laws of economics, until I discovered, within an hour of signing the papers, that leakage around a chainstay had turned a concealed part of the main bulkhead to which it was bolted to mush. Then I started to really tear into the boat and began to understand what a vast project the thing was -- a project I would probably have enjoyed if I had the time -- time which I would rather spend learning to sail. I told the seller that I was not going to take possession of the boat and she could do as she saw fit with my money, which she kept. I have no idea what became of the boat, but I hope that she simply gave it someone who had the time for a new hobby.

One of the things [members] advised me is that a boat that sells for $20,000 is a boat that cost $20,000 and then has had another $20,000 invested in it, along with a fortune in sweat equity, etc. I spent the summer reading and researching and began to understand the value of this advice. I decided that the "bargain" E32 was a "false start" and that I did really want to start sailing a cruising sailboat with my family. This fall, we bought a 1986 Sabre 32 -- a $32,000 boat that had had an additional $30,000+ invested in it, (I kid you not, I have the receipts,) and a couple of years of work, by its former retired owner. I paid $40,000 for the boat, and it is in superb condition, extensively re-fit with new standing rigging, new sails, new running rigging, new instruments and chart plotter and AIS, new ground tackle, new auto-pilot, new wiring, LED running lights, new bottom job, new fuel tank, etc., etc. Of course, I still have a "to-do" list, but it is all optional stuff, like installing solar panels...and new curtains (haha)....

Instead of investing tons of time and money in the boat, as was so correctly predicted I'd have to with the Ericson, we are investing in sailing instruction with Offshore Sailing School for both my wife and I. We have joined [a yacht club] and will move the boat there in April, and begin to spend our weekends sailing on the Sound, with the plan of spending longer periods of time cruising during the summer -- perhaps taking the month of August to live aboard. After our first night aboard the boat at its current slip on the Jersey Shore, [my wife] turned to me and said "Why did it take us so long to do this?!" It feels like a natural activity for us, and we are thrilled to begin.

I just wanted to thank you and the Forum for sage advice last summer. It really made a difference for us.
 

JPS27

Member III
Thanks for sharing. Required reading for all those newbies contemplating buying their first boat.
 

Arjen

New Member
Joint a month ago and it has been fascinating reading all the different threads and blogs by the members of this site. Thank you.
This particular topic has my interest. I own a Beneteau 235 which I have been sailing on the Texas Bays for the last four years. As so many sailors I have the "want" to move up to a boat I can sail further into the ocean and can accommodate in relative comfort not only me, but whoever is interested in sailing with me. I have a few boats in mind, but an Ericson 32 is high on my list. There are not that many around in this part of the country, although there is a 32-200 for sale near Houston which I will visit, but I realize I may have to look in different regions.
I do not mind. I found my 235 around the Great Lakes, had it surveyed and when I was satisfied had it shipped to the Gulf Coast without ever having seen it in person. When it arrived it was exactly as the surveyor had described, with the good (sails, rigging, and hull) and the not so good (outboard, cracks in cockpit gel coat and an interior that could use some love). But I rather not do that again. An Ecricson 32, is a bigger investment than a Beneteau 235.
Although I own a sailboat that I maintain myself and "think" I know what to look for I am more concerned with the things I do not know. Others might be able to sympathize with the fact that my financial obligations are many and my budget is therefore modest and I have looked at boats built in the 80's in the $25,000 to $30,000 range with the expectation and realization they will need upgrading. With regard to sails, electronics and running rigging I have no problem and would almost prefer to do the upgrade myself. But structurally I have no clue what to expect and what to look for and I do not want to hire a surveyor for every boat that looks good on screen just because I am not able to do a basic preliminary inspection myself. I need to be judicious with my time and resources because ultimately I rather be on the water than stuck in a slip or on the hard. Therefore I welcome the guidance of the members of this site to steer me in the right (financial) direction in my quest to buy an Ericson.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Welcome aboard. Sounds like the money is right, and good luck with the quest.

Members will answer any question, and react to any yacht listing you might want to post here.

Regarding the mid-80s Ericson 32-3 and 32-200, a glance through the blogs here give a good record of what to expect in upgrades and routine service.

"bGary," "Rick R." and "Thelonious" are blogs specific to those models.

They're listed here, among other places: https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/ubs/blog/
 
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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Thanks,
The link to the 32-200 I mentioned is: http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...sturl=littleyachtsales&&ywo=littleyachtsales&
Curious what the pictures tell you. I'm planning to see the boat later this month. Any input is appreciated.

While it's difficult to diagnose from pix on the www, at first glance it looks very clean. There is one factual error in the description - that particular engine model (M25XP) is a 23 hp diesel. Same one in our '88. Nice to see that someone has re-wired the engine to get rid of the old troublesome Universal wiring harness. The water injection fitting on the exhaust manifold is different than 'factory' as well.

Trivia: it might be just the camera angle but the bow pulpit seems to have kissed a piling at some point and bent it down slightly... some swearing was likely involved.
The port side of the inside cabin side teak seems to show some moisture discoloration. I wonder if there's a leak above it on the cabin top. I know from experience that an unaddressed water leap around the mast base where the SS turning-block plate is thru-bolted will let water in and it will flow sideways under the headliner. A worn out boot will let water in also.
Our boat came with discoloration of a lot more of that teak veneer and we refinished all of it - no rot in our situation.
Given your geography, there appears to be a large vent forward for what might be the air conditioner. Look carefully at how it was installed - plumbing and wiring, and perhaps a thru hull (s) for the cooling water. That must be the first thing added to all new boats in Texas.:rolleyes:

Please keep us posted. Beautiful boat with an A grade sailing reputation.

Regards,
Loren
 
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Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
Arjen,

I've owned an '85 E32-3 for about two years now and I love the boat. According to this site, the E32s are typically free from major design shortcomings (ie, rotting chainplate mounts, flooding anchor lockers, etc). The common problems I saw on the 3-4 boats I looked at were (1) neglected engines, and (2) cosmetic water damage to the soles and the teak window trim. Like you, I was willing to set low expectations in terms of sails, electronics and running rigging (things I would upgrade anyway), except for the "overall" picture they painted about how the boat was cared for over the years.

As I was finalizing my purchase, it occurred to me that my $30K+ boat was basically a $12-15K diesel engine (rough replacement cost) and roughly 15K for everything else. As Loren mentioned, the engine on this Texas boat has has had wiring and exhaust upgrades done. It also seems not to show the "neglect" that is visible in a lot of these 30 y/o motors--that is worth something.

This boat seems to show little or no water damage to the sole, which appears to be original--making this boat, again, probably better than average. The boat does show some window trim damage. Usually, this is from a leak on the cabin top or the mast boot. Water runs down along the lower surface of the cabin top, draining on to that wood trim around the windows. On several boats I saw, the rot was so bad you could poke your finger through it. Theses boats would also show subsequent water damage to adjacent cushions, cabinetry, and bulkheads. Fixing the damaged window trim itself is pretty easy (according to the "authors" on this site who have done it). Finding & fixing the leak, and therefore preventing the damage from progressing is the cabin.2.jpgharder part, and the one that will require prompt attention.

I'd also poke around at the cabin headliner and side-liner in the v-birth. The areas in blue look like they may have been pulled and re-glued. Also looks like glue or mold stains on the port side-liner--check the cushions and the multi-level bow storage compartments below for signs of mold and water.
v-birth.2.jpg

I think this particular boat went on the market 18-24 mos ago, with an original list price of $39K. Usually, the boats at that asking price are in pretty good shape. Also, not unusual to see the significant price drop after 18 mos--the guy just wants it sold--to your advantage. A fair question to ask the seller (and his neighbors at the dock) is how the boat (and the marina in general) held up during hurricane Harvey in August.

Best of luck.
 

Arjen

New Member
Thank you all for the input. I will pay the boat a visit this month and will let you know what I find. In the meantime I will continue reading the blogs and threats on this site ask questions and learn as much as I can.

As for the air conditioner. I do not have one on my boat and during the Texas summer it can be tortious inside the cabin while in the marina. This 32-200 has an air conditioner and that is very attractive, but I wonder what they had to do to get it installed.

By the way my Beneteau 235 held up beautifully during Harvey. The marina sustained max. winds of 135 miles per hour. This hurricane came seemingly out of nowhere and I did not have time to visit the boat before it struck. Fortunately I had replaced all the dock lines two weeks prior and that helped. When the coast was clear and I was able to visit I noticed that all the new dock lines had some serious chafing and needed to be replaced again. In addition, some of the rain water had seeped in. That was it.
 

sharonov

Member II
E32-200

Arjen,
I keep my boat in the same Waterford marina as the boat you are looking at. As somebody pointed out, Blue Max was for sale for quite some time and the price dropped quite a bit. Try to find out why the boat did not sell so far. E32s from the 80s without major issues seem to go/list for about 30-40k.
I've seen her and from what I recall she looked a bit neglected. Or maybe it was the fact that she spent that long in the brokerage without TLC. Anyway, expect to put a lot of effort and money to bring her into shipshape. Check for expensive items, such as structural integrity, engine, standing rigging, sail, etc. If you choose to hire a surveyor, make sure he will check engine and go aloft. A lot of them are not that useful and would have exclusion clauses in the contract such as "hire mechanic to check engine" and "hire rigger to check rigging".
Good luck,
Sergei
 

Arjen

New Member
Sergei
Thanks for the update.

I have contacted the broker to get additional information, but the communication has not been smooth. My inquiries get either a vague or "I don't really know" answer. It is unfortunately not the first time I have experienced that the communication with a broker becomes strained when asking pointed questions. The one thing he keeps telling me is that the owner is older, not in good health and that boat is aggressively priced for a quick sale. But again, a cheap boat is not always a bargain.

Further I am about 3.5 hours away and more than willing to take the time to travel, but my suggested dates are not convenient for them, which is peculiar to me in this business because (quoting
Christian): "it's easier to buy a boat than sell one."

Fortunately I am not in a hurry, but these boats are not often for sale in this part of the country and it would be nice to see the boat in person before deciding how to proceed.
Arjen
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
It does take patience. My last transaction was with an owner who was rapidly losing his memory, which was why his wife convinced him to sell the boat, which he didn't want to do. It was awkward. The human factor is always there.

Brokers can seldom answer very specific questions about a particular boat. They defer to the owner, and suggest a surveyor. They know types and classes of boats, but even the good ones can;t know whether the engine records are accurate. Often their most useful knowledge is about the owner, and how long on the market, and, well, the human factors of a negotiation. .

Some years ago I was about to buy a trawler, and proposed to the broker a price. He smiled and sighed. "Yeah, that's probably about what it will sell for in a year. But he had an oil leak and burned out one of the engines and it cost him $20,000. It was his fault, and he knows it. Right now, in his mind he wants to get that 20,000 back, even though he never will." I had another deal for a similar boat fall though at the last minute when the seller decided to take it off the market. The broker told me he had shown the boat 27 times, and would now never get a commission.

Yacht brokering--sounds like hard labor, to me.
 

kiwisailor

Member III
Blogs Author
The Empirical Boat Buying Formula Secret Revealed!

After a years worth of research and real world application I have strong empirical evidence that the total cost of boat owning formula is as follows:

TC=BS*2BA/100+BS

where

TC=Total Cost ($ in thousands)
BS=Boat Sale Price ($ in thousands)
BA= Boat Age in years (n)

So using my formula on my 1981 Ericson 38 "SV Kiwi" it works out as $40*2*36/100+$40=$68.8k

However for insurance and resale purposes the formula for New Boat Value (NBV) is much simpler as it is NBV=BS.

My Xmas presents this year are a new 44lb Rocna Vulcan anchor and Balmar alternator kit to go with the new sails in spring....
 
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tenders

Innocent Bystander
So that formula reduces to:
Total Cost = SalePrice ( (BoatAge/50) + 1)

Or in other words, the cost beyond the sale price of the boat is 2% of the boat’s cost per year of age.

Highl depends on how pristine the new owner plans to make the boat. It also needs a constant term to account for the “free boat” scenario, because with your formula the total cost of a free boat is still free.

I propose:

Total Cost = SalePrice ( (BoatAge/50) + 1) + arm + leg
 

kiwisailor

Member III
Blogs Author
So that formula reduces to:
Total Cost = SalePrice ( (BoatAge/50) + 1)

Or in other words, the cost beyond the sale price of the boat is 2% of the boat’s cost per year of age.

Highl depends on how pristine the new owner plans to make the boat. It also needs a constant term to account for the “free boat” scenario, because with your formula the total cost of a free boat is still free.

I propose:

Total Cost = SalePrice ( (BoatAge/50) + 1) + arm + leg

I should add another formula that shows how my wife's happiness appears to be inversely proportional to how much I "invest" in the boat.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Rename the boat Sherene.

I tell you, this solution came to me only recently. My current boat honors a jazz musician nobody could follow and who answered all questions "uhhh." My spouse rarely comes on board Thelonious except to entertain . But I named the dinghy Miss Tracy, and she'll even sail it.

I think there is a reason why lobster boats are named Dolores and fishing boats Annie B, and it is because real men of the sea know what side their marriage is buttered on, and where to spread it.

I wisht I hadda known this earlier.
 
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Afrakes

Sustaining Member
I should add another formula that shows how my wife's happiness appears to be inversely proportional to how much I "invest" in the boat.
Every time I buy something new for the boat shortly thereafter I find something new in the house.
 
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