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Rot or not?

SkipperC

Member II
Blogs Author
Hi all,

I've been checking out various Ericsons along the west coast, hoping to find my first sailboat. Thanks to the support of this group, I'm getting better at knowing what to look for on first walkthrough.

All that said, I saw a boat today and had some questions in regard to the pictures I've posted in the link, if anyone can find the time to take a look, I'd be incredibly appreciative.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/sVbyCNharUh28fW82

1) I see what looks like a lot of rust underneath almost all the deck hardware. My thinking is that someone replaced the deck hardware but didn't take the time to bed it all correctly. It looks to have rust around the hardware. I'm concerned that if there's rust there, and it wasn't bedded correctly, then the balsacore underneath it is quite possibly a mess? Or am I completely wrong?

2) The bilge is filthy, ok, I get it - it's a boat. But, what concerns me is the thick opaque film on the top of the water in the bilge, it looks like oil? Is that something from the engine? What causes that?

3) Looks like there was an impact on the aft port side of the boat, does this look like something to be worried about?

Any thoughts from the group I gladly welcome.

Thanks again for your time!
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
It's always a bit risky to make an assessment based on pictures, but I'll try to offer an initial response to your questions--others will also chime in and may have different opinions.

My sense is that this boat has not been well cared for--the oil or whatever in the bilge, the signs of water damage in the cabin below the mast, signs of corrosion on the mast, etc. And yes, I think the crack near the stern was caused by some kind of impact--another boat, a dock, piling, etc.

A well-cared-for boat will show very differently from the pics you attached, and so this one does not inspire confidence. And while a boat can be cleaned up and repaired in many cases, it often costs more to replace equipment a piece at a time and do the various repairs, than to spend a bit more to buy a boat that's been well cared for.

If you do decide to pursue it, I would strongly recommend a survey by a certified marine surveyor, so you have a better idea of the boat's strengths, weaknesses, and potential problems and costs.

Just my opinion, let's see what others say...

Frank
 
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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Is there a public listing we can look at?

Oil in the bilge suggests the seller is not aware of its significance, and it is often significant.
 

tenders

Innocent Bystander
That stuff looks to me like standard maintenance on a 30 year old boat. Negotiate accordingly. If you don’t want to do it, find a boat that doesn’t need it. If you can’t do it, are you willing to learn? If not, is this the right activity?

  • Oil in bilge: remove oil, scrub bilge with Dawn, identify source of oil, fix it - unlikely a catastrophic situation
  • Mast partners showing signs of leaking: seal mast partners, refinish trim ring - my 32 mast is deck-stepped so I don’t have experience with this problem. But it’s 20 years older so it’s had all kinds of other problems.
  • Rust stains under deck hardware: remove deck hardware, ensure balsa core is sealed with epoxy rings around fasteners, remove rust stains with acid wash (I use a grocery store product called Whink for this), reseal hardware with butyl tape - 2 days effort since epoxy needs time to cure
  • Mast coating showing localized signs of failure: patch or repaint mast - potential big project but not necessarily an imminent one
  • Previous repair of impact looking iffy: fix it better
 
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SkipperC

Member II
Blogs Author
Thanks for the info Tenders.

In fact I'm looking forward to going through and learning/reworking components of the boat and have no problem getting my hands dirty (of course I have no idea what I'm doing, but I'm a quick learn...I think?)

As for the rust removal around the deck hardware, guess I'm less worried about the rust, and most concerned about deck de-lamiation, but sounds like I'm overthinking it. Although, a good surveyor will hopefully be able to discern if/how extensive the damage is. I'm just trying to figure out as much as I can on my own before even making an offer, and spending the money to survey/start the process. I'm on a limited budget.

"Previous repair of impact looking iffy: fix it better" - I love this, it makes me chuckle when I read it...so true!

All good information and thanks for your time!
 

Macgyro

Amazingly Still Afloat
Blogs Author
Highly Recommend a Sailboat Marine Surveyor

Hi,

I'm going to second the advice of hiring a reputable marine surveyor. When I was looking at our 1970 Ericson 32, I had a list of obvious things that I found needed to be fixed, but my insurance company required a survey anyway. The surveyor found the obvious things, plus a few others. She also pointed out a few things that were in better condition than I thought they were, just needed a little cleaning and some things that were more important than I thought they were. I was looking for a project, and found one. She even offered to help me get my money back if I didn't realize the boat needed that much work.

Lessons Learned:

Get a survey done BEFORE you buy ANY boat

Get a thorough buyers survey (not just a quick insurance survey) if you are paying anywhere close to the "book value" of the boat

Negotiate the cost of the survey into the price of the boat by reducing your offer based on having someone else fix your boat even if you plan on leaving it that way, or fixing it yourself. Book value should really only be for a 100% safe and operational boat. Rusted stanchions will probably need to be replaced, etc. The survey report will approximate the value of the boat, and assign a condition as well as detail any repairs that need to be done. This report will greatly strengthen your negotiation position, or worst-case scenario, save you tens of thousands of dollars from dumping money into major repairs.

Good Luck! It's a beautiful boat! Hope everything works out for you!

-Dean
Vivant
 

Filkee

Sustaining Member
Indeed. The survey became my first year (and admittedly second year) maintenance plan, and found things that ultimately lowered the price.
 

SkipperC

Member II
Blogs Author
Thanks, and yes I do intend to get a survey both marine and engine on the right boat...

I guess I'm trying to first understand what level of deferred maintenance I can deal with initially. Good point, I might be throwing the baby out with the bathwater when viewing some of these boats because issues I think are a problem are might not be a problem. Members here have recommended solid marine surveyors down in the Los Angeles area (now I need to find one in San Francisco area if I initiate the process, and I'm walking around with Don Casey's book (also recommended on the forum) when checking out these boats - HA!, I must be a silly sight for veteran sailors.

Thanks again!
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Indeed. The survey became my first year (and admittedly second year) maintenance plan, and found things that ultimately lowered the price.

Good advice. Our initial survey talked about stuff that took us several years to address.
And that was after getting the seller agree to replacing the corroded-thru exhaust elbow and also re-glass the rudder packing gland hardware to the frp tube. (Owner was real unhappy about paying those repairs, but had ignored the boat for years, after prior years of hard use.)

About the appearance of rust around the base of ss deck hardware. This happens with any boat moored in salt water, and there are cleaners/chemicals that will eradicate it. Given the age of the boat the hardware is due for re-bedding anyway.
Betcha a (digital) dollar that the owner has ignored the rigging as well, and it's way past time for a new standing rig.
(This is depressingly routine for boats on the market, and 90% of the sellers want an "ROI" when they have "invested" very little in their boats.) :rolleyes:

I always look at the teak and holy sole, and figure that if an owner has ignored water stains there, he has not paid much attention to his boat. Same for a dirty bilge. The EY models in our club from that era have relatively clean bilges, including a mid 80's 38 and a 32. These owners pay attention and value having a boat "ready to go".
Their cabin soles, and ours, are solid with good varnish.

BTW, that's a beautiful design with a sterling sailing and sea-keeping reputation.

Regards,
Loren
 
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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Doesn't look bad to my eye.

Engine has old-style alternator bracket, meaning the owner was not paying attention to the marine equivalent of auto "mandatory recalls" (the old bracket tends to break without warning and cause expensive engine damage).

Bear in mind that all new foam and upholstery is probably required, and that's expensive--5K or thereabouts.

These are great boats though, and as Tenders said, this level of need is pretty much standard.
 

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
I've looked at many many E32-3's online--I bought mine about a year ago. Some comments:

Rust stains under railings & hardware: Much of the hardware is accessible from the interior of the boat under the zip-open headliner. The stanchion railings are a little harder to see since they are so far outboard. See what you can see under the headliner (one boat I looked at had some zippers removed and the headliner sewn together--I took that as a bad sign). Go out on a rainy day and see if you see any water permeating through the hardware screws to the interior of the boat.

Water stain on cabin sole to stbd of mast: All of these boats let rainwater in through opening in the mast. The water ends up collecting in the forward bilge. On the earlier boats, this water would often leak onto and damage the sole (mine has some damage here). On this boat, there is a recessed track in the fiberglass base, just aft of the mast. Ericson added this track on later models to direct water from the mast into the bilge. Since this boat has the recessed drain, I would guess this damage on the sole is from a different leak. My boat has two water-tank fill-ports in the deck above this area. Check for leaks inside the forward storage locker and the bulkhead wall in the locker (under the area of the fill-ports).

Engine: Engine looks a little neglected. Do take the alternator bracket modification seriously. I was warned not to run my engine at all with that old bracket still on. If the old bracket cracks, it can do almost irreparable harm to the engine. The replacement kit costs less than $200, but I couldn't find a mechanic to install it so I did it myself. Just carefully consider how long you want to run the engine before you replace it. It looks like a previous owner already replaced the exhaust elbow (this boat shows a silver, Westerbeke-style elbow)--may be one less thing for you to replace down the road.

Often, these boats start listing at 35-39K if they are in good condition. A year later, they may drop to 29-30K. What it's "worth," obviously has much to do with how it surveys.

Best of luck! These are great boats.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Since your interest in this boat continues, here are more random pre-survey notes:

The description says there are "updated hatches and ports complimented by nice window coverings". Most '80s boats have crazed plastic hatches, if the hatches have been renewed, or replaced, that would be good.

Look carefully around and especially under portlights. It is common to have damage to the teak veneer, which if minor is only cosmetic. If there is no damage, that's good.

Crawl uncomfortably through the lazarette hatch lid and

--Put a flashlight on the steering system. The radial should look almost new and the stainless steering cables (wires) undamaged.
--Examine the rudder tube and the packing gland where the rudder post emerges. It should look solid, without salt crystals.
-- While down there note the water heater, which will be in your way. Corrosion or taped hoses or rusted-out components mean issues.
--Note the fresh water system, which is some variant of a gray plastic hose with T-fittings and valves. It would be nice not to find joints covered in tape, glue and so on.
--The transmission and linkages will be rusty because they're steel, that's normal. Locate the stuffing box and try to find evidence of spray or leaks.
--Check the rudder tube where the rudder post emerges from it. That packing gland should appear well seated, with no evidence of salt water leakage or evaporation.

You can tell if the deck core has a really bad problem if there are soft spots in the deck as you walk on it. Late 80s Ericson decks are usually in pretty good shape.

If the sails are original, they'll need to be replaced pretty immediately. They'll be pretty faded and beat up, and probably not have full-length battens. If they're not original, that's good.

None of these is a dealbreaker, just a way to have something specific to do on a second look.

A broker gets very interested when you come back a second time--especially if it's from far away.

The sequence from there is: make an offer. The seller usually makes a counteroffer. When accepted, next is a sea trial. That's usually scheduled same day as the haul-out for the surveyor. If the surveyor's report is acceptable, you have to decide whether an engine inspection and a rigging inspection are also necessary. It's a peace of mind call.

At any time in this process, from initial offer to last day of the agreed-on time period, you can withdraw with any reason at all, and your good-faith deposit will be returned. Buyers often lower their offer if the survey reveals a surprise.

Theoretically, yacht brokers represent both sides in the transaction. And a reputable broker is a big asset. They can reason with a seller whose boat is overpriced or on the market for a year. They want a good referral from you even if they don't sell you this time. Ask the guy with his name on the door to show you the boat, or at least meet with him. Brokers raise the asking price at least 10 percent, which is their commission, often with a minimum of $3K or so.

Use them. We're paying for it, and the successful ones know a lot.

I think I typed all this for a simple reason--the 32-3 is my favorite all-time boat.











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KloeberEng

KWKloeber
Theoretically, yacht brokers represent both sides in the transaction.


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Being also a broker, one correction. The legal and fiduciary responsibility of the broker is toward who pays him/her (the seller) unless you have a written agreement w/a "buyer's broker." It's the same as for a real estate broker.

So, NEVER say to a broker, "See if the seller will accept $x, but I'd be willing to go $x+y. His legal responsibility is to tell the seller the max you will go for. A reputable broker will try to make the deal happen, which is in his client's interest also, so will be reasonable in trying to effect a fair and reasonable negotiation. For instance, if the haul reveals its full of blisters, a reputable broker will try to help negotiate a fair value, and not just take the sellers side that "It's his problem, I won't take a dime less."
 
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