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Thread: Removal of glued down cabin sole

  1. #31
    Fellow Ericson Owner Geoff Johnson's Avatar
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    I hadn't thought of getting a new base. I see there is a model that allows the pedestal to be removed and replaced by a plate freeing up space.

    As for my plan of attack, I intend to cut all of the 1/4" teak and holly pieces at home and then lay them on top of the existing sole. I intend to use a jig saw to cut the wood close to the line and then do the final shaping with a bench belt sander (4 x 36). Only when I am sure I have a viable replacement, will I rip out the existing sole. I might try ripping out one section at a time, but the joints between my sections are so old and varnished together, I doubt the sections will come out cleanly. One advantage I have is that my sole is flat - I don't have the angled sections you have in the stern.
    Geoff Johnson

    New Wave
    Ericson 32-3 (1985) Hull #638
    Rowayton, CT

  2. #32
    Fellow Ericson Owner Geoff Johnson's Avatar
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    The rough cutting of the teak an holly ply continues and I have learned a few things so far:

    1) It's a good idea to apply CPES (clear penetrating epoxy sealer) before cutting as it reduces splintering to zero and reduces damage to the surface from handling since it toughens the wood. 10 ounces will coat one side of a 4 x 8 sheet.

    2) When laying out the patterns, do not mark the wood (lines have to be moved), but rather lay down (green) masking tape and mark your lines on that. The lines are also a lot easier to see.

    3) Even a high quality (Bosch) jig saw is not a precision tool and the blade cannot be made to behave even with a straight edge.

    4) A router is a precision tool and when coupled with a straight edge and a pilot bit (router bit with a roller bearing on top) can be made to trim wood with an accuracy of perhaps a couple hundredths of an inch. I have now succesfully made what I believe will be the most difficult cut (after ruining one section) which is the joining of two pieces parallel to the holly stripes so that they match the stripes on the adjoining piece. I have also used the router (Porter-Cable 310 trimmer with an offset subbase http://www.patwarner.com/pc310_special.html ) to "saw" one large piece into two using a 1/8" solid carbide bit. The alternative would have been a table saw, but saw blades have a much wider kerf and I wanted the reduction in distance between the adjoining holly stripes to be as inconspicuous as possible.


    So the game plan now is to match cut all the mating sufaces of the six pieces (by pushing them together and running the 1/8" bit between them to get an identical profile on both sides of the cut) and then take everything to the boat to trim the edges.

    I have also made the pattern for the cutouts of the five bilge access plates, four of which are the same size. The pattern is the exact size of the existing opening and the plan is to use a collar guide on the router which will hold the router bit about an 1/8th inch inside the cutout (thereby leaving a "blank" from which to make the cover with a solid teak border) and then use the pilot bit to trim the opening flush with the pattern.

    I can see this is going to take me all winter.
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    Last edited by Geoff Johnson; 02-27-2005 at 02:05 PM.
    Geoff Johnson

    New Wave
    Ericson 32-3 (1985) Hull #638
    Rowayton, CT

  3. #33
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    thanks for the progress reports

    Geoff,
    After collecting everything that has been written about the dreaded floorboard project I enjoyed your blow-by-blow. Maybe one of these days I just have to come up to see what it looks like. I have not started because I always found something that was maybe more urgent but also much more doable with my tools.
    Chris Winter
    E34 Dangriga 1988 #267

  4. #34
    Fellow Ericson Owner Geoff Johnson's Avatar
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    Thanks, but a trip right now would be a bit premature, but you are welcome. I have rough cut all six pieces and fine fitted three so far by laying them on the existing sole starting with the bow and working toward the stern and lining everything up with the more or less straight edge on the starboard side. Extending/marking the edges of the old floor on the surrounding gelcoat with masking tape shows me where to cut the new sole when I lay it on top of the old. This project is definitely pushing my carpentry skills (although come to think of it I did get an A in shop class in the fifth grade.)

    So far things have gone pretty well (except that the new teak is distinctly browner that the existing woodwork). For the radius inside curves, I found the trick is to make a template for the router (using a pilot bit). Once the other three pieces are fine fit and I have cut out the five bilge cover openings (again using a template and router) I will screw up my courage and rip out the existing floor - the point of no return!
    Geoff Johnson

    New Wave
    Ericson 32-3 (1985) Hull #638
    Rowayton, CT

  5. #35
    Contributing Partner JORGE's Avatar
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    Teak flex

    Hey Geoff,
    I'm thinking about replacing the FBG cabin sole on my E32, and I tracked a teak related website selling "Flex-i-teek", it is something I will check into. Otherwise, I'll possibly buy a sheet of regular teak plywood, and cut dado's to inlay holly, birch, ash or similar wood.


    http://www.worldpanel.com/

  6. #36
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    keep us informed

    Geoff,
    Keep us informed on this project. I am in awe of the number of 'views' this has received.
    Thanks.
    Chris Winter
    E34 Dangriga 1988 #267

  7. #37
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    Coating for Sole

    I restored an old Jet 14 sailboat a few years ago and in doing so built floatation tanks under the deck using Oakume ply. I coated the wood with 2 coats of west system epoxy and used their 207 coating hardner. It did not darken the wood and all. I applied it with a foam roller and tipped it out with a decent brush. After washing with soap and water to remore the amine blush I applied 8 coats of Epiphanes varnish. This has held up extremely well to exterior conditions. Water and sun mainly. The epoxy is an excellent sealer and is very durable. The varnish has UV inhibitors that epoxy does not. The combination of the two has worked very well for me in several projects.
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  8. #38
    Fellow Ericson Owner Geoff Johnson's Avatar
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    I think the better choice is CPES (clear penetrating epoxy sealant) which is made by at least a couple of vendors. It has the viscosity of water, is absorbed deep into the wood, and leaves no blush. Apparently it is the secret ingredient as a first coat for long lasting exterior varnish.
    Geoff Johnson

    New Wave
    Ericson 32-3 (1985) Hull #638
    Rowayton, CT

  9. #39
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    sole (soul) chemistry

    Keep in mind that all epoxy's are similar. The watery consistency is achieved by using solvents added to the base chemicals. Therefore to achive the desired waterproofing properties you will need to apply many more coats of material. Not that this is in itself bad, but just so you are aware that 2 coats probably isn't adaquate protection. The material is too expensive & the project too involved to take shortcuts, IMHO. The finished product is worth it though. Geoff, it sounds like you are really getting into this project. Keep up the good work.
    Have fun & sail fast
    Bud E34 "Escapade"

  10. #40
    Fellow Ericson Owner Geoff Johnson's Avatar
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    I spent about four hours on Saturday cursing Ericson. There must have been a sale on 5200 the day my cabin sole was installed. Anyway, as you can see from the attached photo, the sole forward of the mast has been removed using my trusty Wonderbar (not bra) and knee pads. The sole came out in small pieces and was decidedly damp so I am glad I am doing this. I am also glad I opted for 1/4 inch plywood since two thirds of the surface will accommodate only 1/4 ply. I had hoped that removing the sole would give me access to the forward keel bolt which is just below the hole forward of the mast, but everthing seems to be sealed in. The aft part of the sole has been mostly cleaned of glue using a wood chisel, but the forward part remains to be done.

    The recent snow storm in the East has also given me the opportunity to make good progress on the 5 bilge hatches. The T&H ply has been cut and epoxied to 10 ply 1/2" mahogany. I then cut the blanks to "size", meaning about 1/4" too small on each side. Next I ripped some 3/8" teak into 3/4" strips to border the hatches and to make them slightly oversize so that I can cut them for a perfect fit.

    I am definitely not going to glue down the new sole, but wonder how many screws are need for a secure fit. There is a lot to be said for a removable sole. For one thing, making a new one would be trivial since the the old one can be used as a pattern and making a new one is just a matter of cutting the ply roughly to size and then running around the edge of the old one (used as a pattern) with the router and pilot bit. In fact, if anyone is planning to follow in my footsteps, I recommend first making a wood pattern from cheap ply. I have had to remake two of the six sections and am now out of T&H ply.
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    Last edited by Geoff Johnson; 02-07-2005 at 10:27 AM.
    Geoff Johnson

    New Wave
    Ericson 32-3 (1985) Hull #638
    Rowayton, CT

  11. 02-10-2005, 07:18 PM

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  12. #41
    Fellow Ericson Owner Geoff Johnson's Avatar
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    Here we are after another 3 to 4 hours of demolition using mostly wood chisels. Fortunately, 5200 was not used. It's a red glue of some sort. Fortunately, I was able to save most of the 1/2" sections between the stringers to use as patterns for new ones. I see no point in gluing them down like the originals, so will just screw the replacements in place. One more tool tip - a dead blow hammer is a lot easier on the wrist and the ears (I found I had to wear hearing protection with a metal hammer in that confined space).
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    Last edited by Geoff Johnson; 02-15-2005 at 07:56 AM.
    Geoff Johnson

    New Wave
    Ericson 32-3 (1985) Hull #638
    Rowayton, CT

  13. #42
    Fellow Ericson Owner Geoff Johnson's Avatar
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    The demolition continues. However, the temperature last Saturday was nearly freezing so I lasted only a couple of hours (I suppose I could bring an electric heater). Now that I can see the TFG in all its glory, I am impressed with how strong it is. At the end of the day, I dropped some of the unfinished new floor boards in place. I am beginning to see light at the end of the tunnel. Since I do not want to glue the new boards down, I have been thinking of screwing them down over a layer of that non-slip mesh you can buy in the boat stores for lining cabinets. A small scale test at home was promising; the sole acts almost like it was glued down. It might let me use a lot fewer screws.
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    Last edited by Geoff Johnson; 02-21-2005 at 12:20 PM.
    Geoff Johnson

    New Wave
    Ericson 32-3 (1985) Hull #638
    Rowayton, CT

  14. #43
    Principal Partner u079721's Avatar
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    Wow

    Geoff,

    I am in awe of your work so far. As for finishing up the installation, I would certainly vote for some type of removable system like screws if at all possible, as it would be a shame not to be able to regain access to those areas of the bilge that you have open now.

    I also like the idea of putting a layer of cushioning mat under the floor prior to mounting, but wonder about whether this would hold moisture against the wood, and promote rot? (Just a concern.)
    Steve Christensen
    Twin Cities, MN
    Former Owner of Rag Doll
    1989 Ericson 38-200
    Hull Number: ERY38318C989
    Universal M40

  15. #44
    Fellow Ericson Owner Geoff Johnson's Avatar
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    Thanks, Steve. One of the reasons I am doing this is to make the sole waterproof so I plan to brush on a second and third coat of penetrating epoxy and then varnish both sides. In addition, I think a mesh layer between the teak and holly and the underfloor (there will be epoxied mahogany plywood between the stringers) will keep the underside drier. A few years ago when I had the front of my house re-shingled, the carpenter installed a plastic mesh between the cedar shingles and the siding. That's probably what gave me the idea.
    Geoff Johnson

    New Wave
    Ericson 32-3 (1985) Hull #638
    Rowayton, CT

  16. #45
    Fellow Ericson Owner Geoff Johnson's Avatar
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    Loren (and anyone else with a screwed sole),

    Since you have not gone over to the Dark Side in the screw vs. glue wars, can you help me with the following:

    1) The source for your square drive bronze screws;
    2) The approximate number and location (pattern) for the screws;
    3) The size of screw used (and the thickness of your sole).


    Thanks.
    Geoff Johnson

    New Wave
    Ericson 32-3 (1985) Hull #638
    Rowayton, CT

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