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Thread: Removal of glued down cabin sole

  1. #16
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    more horror pic's

    Geoff;
    A couple more pic's. One shows whats left of the table base, the other the tools needed to lift the old sole. The synthetic teak & holly sounds interesting. Will follow up with a couple pic's of the finished job. Don't want to scare anybody with the scope of the project. Finished product worth it.
    Bud
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  2. #17
    Contributing Partner tilwinter's Avatar
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    Cabin Sole

    Bud:

    Thanks for the pictures. I have been contemplating this as a project for this winter.

    Looking at your bilge, two questions:

    First, what finish or paint is that on the bilge.

    Secondly, you say you re-bedded the keel bolts. It looks like the washers were painted first. What did you use to bed the bolts. How tight did you torque the bolts? Did you, for instance, use an extension on your flex wrench to get more mechanical advantage? I am afraid of either over- or under-torquing the bolts.
    Rod Johnson
    Formerly Ericson 30+ 1981
    "Til Winter"

  3. #18
    Fellow Ericson Owner Geoff Johnson's Avatar
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    I stopped by ML Condon in White Plains (NY) this morning to check out the the cabin sole teak and holly plywood. A sheet of 3/4" (4' x 8') is $216 and a sheet of 1/4" is 147. I 'll have to measure, but if memory serves me, 3/4" might be too thick. I wonder if a better solution might be to make a template of 1/4" marine ply and after that is fit, glue the 1/4" teak and holly (cut slightly oversize) to it and then sand it to the size of the template. Also, has anyone tried to epoxy the top side of the sole before applying varnish? It seeems to that penetrating epoxy like "Git Rot" would make the new sole absolutely waterproof and if applied before cutting, would eliminate splintering.
    Geoff Johnson

    New Wave
    Ericson 32-3 (1985) Hull #638
    Rowayton, CT

  4. #19
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    Seems to me you can get that teak ply in 1/2". Of course the
    ultimate would be solid wood glued up with or without contrasting
    inlays. Regarding epoxies, you could use Smiths penetrating or even
    West systems cut with acetone. To help reduce tearout when
    cross cutting veneer ply, you can score it with a mat knife before
    the cut and always use a high quality sharp blade in the saw.

    Martin

  5. #20
    Senior Moderator Loren Beach's Avatar
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    Talking And, from a "religious" viewpoint...

    This thread might also be called: "The struggle for Geoff's sole"



    (sorry folks -- someone had to say it.... ! )

    Best,
    Loren




  6. #21
    Fellow Ericson Owner Geoff Johnson's Avatar
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    Thanks, Martin, good advice. What do you think of epoxy on the top surface (as a base for the varnish)? This is what a quick Google search turned up:

    "You should consider sealing the cabin sole with Clear Penetrating Epoxy
    Sealer (CPES). This is a 50:50 ready-to-mix and is much thinner than
    normal epoxy resin and will penetrate deeper. I would recommend 2 coats
    and then a light sanding with fine paper. After that you can lay down
    varnish, or one or two-part urethanes for a good bond. We have used this
    system extensively on our boat, as well as those of others, and found the
    final result superior to just the varnish or urethanes. The CPES darkens
    the wood slightly, just as an initial coat of clear varnish will.

    You can get full details on the CPES from our website.

    The Rot Doctor
    http://www.rotdoctor.com/"
    Last edited by Geoff Johnson; 08-31-2004 at 10:09 AM.
    Geoff Johnson

    New Wave
    Ericson 32-3 (1985) Hull #638
    Rowayton, CT

  7. #22
    Contributing Partner JORGE's Avatar
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    Since you're talkin cabin sole

    On my E32-2, I have some softness in the FBG sole, just aft of the forward berth, between the head and sink(on the starbd side). Has anyone had this problem? I don't know what is underneath?

  8. #23
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    sole redeeming

    Rod;
    To try to answer your questions first. I used polysulfide under the washers. Remember, 5200 (3M) is an ADHESIVE/sealant. You might want to remove them someday. I used a "breaker bar" w/2' of pipe as a torque improver to tighten the 1" dia. keel bolts. You want about 150=200 ft./lbs, torque. Your 30+ has 3/4" keel bolts, so they will need slightly less torque. You want them tight as possible without "crushing" the FRP underneath. It's kinda a "feel" thing. I've been working on stuff my whole life so it's sometimes hard for me to explain something. It just feels right. I used bilge coat from WM to finish the bilge. If the surface is clean & dry @ application it really seems to adhere very well.
    Your 30+ sole is somewhat different from the 34. Yours is 1/4" over a FRP pan (the hull liner). I would use same basic procedure. My 30+ had the sole glued & screwed in place w/o any rot so I just refinished it in place.
    Geoff;
    The 3/4 ply is actually .710" thick (18mm). I considered laminating also, by the time you buy the extra material, adhesive, etc. you will have about the same invested plus a lot of extra work. Didn't seem worthwhile to me. As far as finish materials, they all are probably good as long as they seal out moisture, as Martin pointed out. Depends on what you like to use. I opted for spar varnish cut w/mineral spirits & LOTS of coats, sanding in between. I've never been accused of being the brightest light bulb on the Christmass tree! But hey, your asking my opinion. And you know what they say about that. Hope this helps answer some more questions.
    Have fun & sail fast
    Bud E34 "Escapade"

  9. #24
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    of shoes and ships and sealing wax

    The thing about an epoxy underlayment on brightwork is that
    it's harder to sand than just about anything else. So if it were me,
    I'd make sure the sole (soul?) was removable and could be placed
    on a bench at a convenient working height. Since middle age has
    set upon me with a frightening pace, my knees, back, you name it
    hurt way more now than they used to- and the prospect of sanding
    for hours on end while crawling on all fours just doesn't hold the
    romance it used to. Another finish I have experimented with for brightwork
    is a clear gelcoat put out by Duratec. www.duratec1.com There is a local boat manufacturer here that is using it in their interiors. It can be sprayed or brushed, it kicks fast and can be wet sanded and buffed to a high gloss, and seems to hold up fairly well-and it's cheaper than epoxy.

    Martin
    E31C

  10. #25
    Fellow Ericson Owner Geoff Johnson's Avatar
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    and cabbages and kings and why the sea is boiling hot and whether pigs have wings

    After some investigation, I think I am going to forego the 1 mm veneer plywood and go with this source:

    http://www.woodworkingforwatercraft.com/cabinsole.html

    This is what I was told when I inquired about the price:

    "Price for our product, 1/4" thick hand laid engineered teak & holly in a
    4x8 sheet is $770. However I do make the sections cut to fit from your
    pattern with 4 coats of finish for $28.48 per sq. ft., this price includes
    blanks."

    It is expensive (over 3 times the cost of veneer plywood), but I am hoping that if I have to pay only for the actual material I need, the cost differential will not be as great.
    Last edited by Geoff Johnson; 09-03-2004 at 07:11 AM.
    Geoff Johnson

    New Wave
    Ericson 32-3 (1985) Hull #638
    Rowayton, CT

  11. #26
    Fellow Ericson Owner Geoff Johnson's Avatar
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    I'm back to the plywood since the sole on my boat is not a constant thickness; where it crosses the TFG it's only 1/4" and elsewhere it is 3/4". So I am using 1/4" teak and holly plywood backed by 1/2" mahogany plywood where required. I made the patterns out of a frosted mylar I found in an art store and am in the process of applying the penetrating epoxy to both sides of the teak and holly ply sheets before cutting it. Out of an excess of caution, I have held off from ripping out the old sole until I at least get the the new sole rough cut. Now should I screw it down or go for the Rolls Royce solution, PYI's 316 stainless floor fasteners?

    http://www.pyiinc.com/index.php?sect...tion=main&sn=1
    Last edited by Geoff Johnson; 11-17-2004 at 03:24 PM.
    Geoff Johnson

    New Wave
    Ericson 32-3 (1985) Hull #638
    Rowayton, CT

  12. #27
    Senior Moderator Loren Beach's Avatar
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    Question

    I like my system of bronze square-drive fasteners flush with the sole... but those new SS ones look rather spiffy. I wonder if, instead of visually blending in to the surrounding teak like mine, they would be a bit too shiny and eye catching?

    Loren

  13. #28
    Fellow Ericson Owner Geoff Johnson's Avatar
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    They are a bit over the top. Seems to me you could appoximate the fasteners with machine screws and threaded inserts (WM catalog, p. 602). Then you could use a bronze machine screw to blend in.
    Geoff Johnson

    New Wave
    Ericson 32-3 (1985) Hull #638
    Rowayton, CT

  14. #29
    Fellow Ericson Owner Geoff Johnson's Avatar
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    BTW, Bud (escapade) what did you do about the base for your table . . . in the photo above it looks like a hole corroded through it? Mine has some flaking paint on the surface and I was considering getting it powder coated, but will probably just paint it.
    Geoff Johnson

    New Wave
    Ericson 32-3 (1985) Hull #638
    Rowayton, CT

  15. #30
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    Thumbs up the final answer

    Geoff;
    My table bases were so badly corroded that he Admiraless suggested we replace them with new pieces. Which made a lot of sense in our case. The structural integrity of the bases was gone and powder coating wouldn't have hidden the damage. If your bases are in good shape with only some cosmetic flacking I would think that powdercoat would be the way to go. It is what I had considered but mine were just too bad. I believe that I spent about $80.00 on 2 new table bases @ W.M. I never priced coating, but would guess that it would be less that that. If not, then replace with new. Sounds like your project is getting a lot more involved that mine what with having to laminate the 1/2 ply to the 1/4. I did the same as you are though, only rippng up a portion of the sole at a time. Makes getting the new pieces oriented MUCH easier. I will get a clouple pic's of my finished sole. Hopefully it will give you encouragement!
    Have fun & sail fast
    Bud E34 "Escapade"

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