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E32-3 Cabin Top Leaks

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
I have two small leaks on the port cabin top. One is coming from underneath the jib halyard winch. The winch was Factory mounted on top of a teak ring to keep it level. Just inboard and slightly forward of the winch is a 3 line rope clutch. Small leak under that too.

When I go to re-bed, do I have to over-drill the holes and check for core damage, or were these areas glassed-in?
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Not sure if there are differences, but when I have accessed the underside of the coach roof on our '88 boat, I could see wood coring and I sort of recall that it looks like balsa. We have no leaks so far, and hope to upgrade the original clutches and winch location one of these years -- general plan is to over-drill from below, epoxy fill, and re-drill. I did that with the recent deck cleat changeover and it's great to know that the coring is now totally sealed.

Worst part of the job was pulling and replacing a hundred staples in a small section of the headliner, gotta say.....
 
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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
They should have zipper access. You'll know if there's a core issue just by poking around the bolt holes after removing. Probably not.

This is a good application for butyl rubber when reinstalling the bolts.

Do make double sure you have the actual source of the leak.
 

tenders

Innocent Bystander
I’ll take the other side of that bet: I suspect you’re going to find some leaks and water penetration in the core around the fasteners.

But it is not that hard to fix.

  • Drill the holes out oversize - I use a 1/2” drill.
  • Use an Allen wrench in the drill and pulverize as much of the old core out as you can, vacuuming it out of the hole with a Shop Vac.
  • Let everything dry as much as possible - using heat, a fan, Mother Nature - for days, if you can keep it dry.
  • Tape over the bottom of the hole and pump as much ketchup-consistency epoxy into the hole with a jumbo syringe as you can. Let it cure.
  • Redrill the hole for the fastener (tip: I’ve found it just a little more work, but worth it, to drill undersize and tap a thread into these holes, than to drill it out entirely)
  • Kiss the hole with a countersink bit (the key to success with butyl)
  • Seal the fastener with butyl tape.
 

bolbmw

Member III
FYI on my '81 all thru deck hardware is threaded into the deck in undersized holes which made for very difficult removal after all these years. The backing hardware was easy to remove but I had to pound, coerce and use a penetrating oil to get the bolts out of the deck.

When I removed my winches to service them I also found very little sealant, and the tight fit must have been watertight as I experienced no leakage.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I find that true, also. I usually unscrew them all the way. On my boats the cause was hardened caulk in the bolt holes--and a tight hole to begin with.
 

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
Thanks to all. That was exactly what I was looking for--a little encouragement that there may be no core dampness and explicit instructions in case there is.

One more thing. I'm totally lost in the West Systems department of my marine store--I might as well be looking at toenail polish. Can someone recommend the right resin, hardener, and thickening agent for this type of repair?
 

bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
Can someone recommend the right resin, hardener, and thickening agent for this type of repair?

I don't know about "right", but I use 105 resin, 205 hardener and 406 filler.

For *small* jobs, you can get all of this in a small kit: https://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-system---101-handy-repair-pack--318329?recordNum=60

...or a slightly larger kit (has more resin/catalyst packs but proportionally less filler): https://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-system--105-k-fiberglass-boat-repair-kit--12954095

...but if you're planning bigger jobs there are far more economical ways to buy the stuff.

For filling holes, a syringe-type applicator is super useful.
 

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
Bruce, thanks. Maybe I'll buy the small kits as a good omen that I won't be doing many other FG repairs. Or would I just be cursing myself? BTW, I PM'd you with a reefing-line question.
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
For small portable repairs, West System Six10 is basically that same recipe in a dispenser tube. It's convenient, but not the cheapest way to go. And then you have to figure out what to do with the rest of it... I think they carry it at Home Depot sometimes. The stuff is stable in the tube, but the mixing nozzles are one-shot.


At the workshop, the metal cans (Gallon resin, quart hardener) with the pump dispensers, and the gallon jar of thickener, are invaluable. They last for years of small projects. Any time you want a bit of epoxy, just *pump* *pump* *stir* and it's instantly there. I keep them in a cabinet with a stack of disposable parfait cups and stir sticks. Admittedly, it's a little awkward to transport that set-up to the marina for a small repair. But a lot cheaper than a tube of Six10.
 

Pat O'Connell

Member III
Epoxy Syringes

Hi Ken Advice that little injection syringes are valuable is real good discovery. They sell them pretty cheap in drug stores for giving children oral dosage. Last time I was at the Pharmacy I asked where they were stocked and the pharma tech reached under the counter and gave me a half a dozen. Best Regards Pat 1981 E28+ Chips Universal 5411
 

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
E32 Cabin Top Leaks, Continued.....

I finally sealed the cabin top leaks from the exterior so I could begin working from the inside and drying things out. Blue tape and Life-caulk are working well so far. 20171120_181743.jpg


Underneath, the core (which seems to be plywood) is wet, but only slightly, at least at first glance (via three 1/2" dia holes):
20171120_174207.jpg20171120_174807.jpg

Should I just keep drilling holes in the adjacent area till I hit dry wood? Cut a few areas open to let the rest dry out?

Note from the exterior pictures that, due to the shape of the cabin top, the wood coring can extend at most 1-2" forward of the square base, and 3-4" to port of both bases. Should I just plan on cutting all the way forward and to port and replace the coring all the way out to the edges, like this?
20171120_181743.jpg
Is there an electric saw that is convenient to make the shallow cuts through the core and lower FRP without hurting the exterior? So far I've been using a drill bit and chisel, which is working OK.

Thanks.
 
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bigd14

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
<style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:1; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-format:oops:ther; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:0 0 0 0 0 0;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536870145 1073786111 1 0 415 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} @page WordSection1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --> </style> [FONT=&quot]Hi Ken- That core looks pretty good to me. I would probably leave those holes open for a few weeks and maybe run a heater under them while you are doing some other work on the boat to help dry them out (I’m not advocating leaving a heater running on the boat while you are not there!). Once dried out you can fill those areas with some thickened epoxy filler and lay a little fiberglass cloth over the bottom to tie it all together. Sand and acetone wash the underside of the deck where the new fiberglass cloth will go first. I would also add a 3/8 G10 backing plate underneath all that, tied to the deck with some thickened epoxy to make the whole area solid. This last step is optional since those bolts will be in shear but I figure it can’t hurt to distribute loads a little more.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you decide to use G10 fiberglass plate, I have found (after trashing bandsaw blades, expensive circular saw blades, and multiple jigsaw blades) that the best way to cut it is to use a diamond coated jigsaw blade. Then sand off the sharp corners and one side of it so the epoxy will stick. I have found the best way to sand G10 is to place a piece of sticky longboard sandpaper to a piece of scrap plywood and then run the G10 over this. G10 smells really bad when cut and I highly recommend a respirator if you have it, or at very least a dust mask. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Good luck![/FONT]

Edit- If you decide to cut more, a Fein Multimaster type oscillating tool is what you want. Best tool in the barn for boatwork. Also, if you are really worried about the plywood you can remove it all, and replace it with a 1/2" thick G10 plate and then glass over the bottom of it. This will take more thickened epoxy but is quite manageable in this small area. If you go this route, expect to find some amount of soft or rotten balsa core around the plywood if the water has migrated that far. This may or may not be a problem. But I have found the more you dig the more you find, and then its up to your comfort level of how much you want to keep digging (and more importantly repairing)!

Second edit- Overhead fiberglass work is unbelievably messy. Plastic sheet everything within a 10 foot radius, wear a hat, and be very careful what you touch.
 
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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I say, just don't overdo it.

If the wood isn't rotten and will dry out, good enough. Inject CPES before closing the surgery.
 

tenders

Innocent Bystander
Good advice from bigd.

I'm sure a diamond blade is great for cutting G10, but I use less exotic carbide-tipped blades using a very basic table saw or a hand-held battery-powered Makita mini-saw. The mini-saw uses a 4.5" blade that looks like a tiny table saw blade. G10 can't possibly be good for these blades, but I'm not a very exacting woodworker and haven't noticed any ill effects. I use a grinder with an 80 grit disc to do bevels. AND A RESPIRATOR.

3/8" thick G10 is very generous for backing plates, and far stronger and stiffer than the deck they underpin. I believe it is more rugged than aluminum, so I think you'd be happy with 1/4" or even 3/16".

The Fein oscillating saw tool is the gold standard for a lot of boat cutting (though probably not ideal for more than a small bit of G10); however, it is fabulously expensive. I have a Harbor Freight knockoff, which I think cost $30. Though much noisier and rougher than the Fein, it is a perfectly acceptable tool. The trick is to buy decent bi-metal blades from somewhere other than Harbor Freight. I get Bosch blades from Lowe's or Amazon. Those blades will let you precisely cut through fiberglass skins and core with complete control over the depth, and will also help shave core off the interior of the skin that's still attached...cut the protubing ends off of stainless bolts...trim replacement foam or balsa core...I find myself using it much more than I expected, and because it's a pretty low power device it runs nicely on a relatively small inverter.
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
Cutting G10

For straight G10 cuts it's hard to beat a wet tile saw. Cuts G10 like butter with no dust and a smooth, clean edge. I bought a Skil 7 inch wet tile saw for about $65 to make my bilge pump base from 1/2 and 3/4 inch thick G10. The Harbor Freight model would be similar. I'll also use mine for a bunch of 1/4 inch thick G10 backing plates.

If you are on a budget, you can rent one. Even better, I'll bet you can borrow one from someone you know. These saws are everywhere because a lot of people bought them for multi-room, home tile projects and still have them. If you ask 10 handy people you know, I bet you will find 3 wet tile saws you can borrow.

Mark
 

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tenders

Innocent Bystander
1/2" and 3/4" G10 as a base for your bilge pump...looks great, and that's a superb tip on the tile saw, but what, pray tell, is your pump made of that requires that kind of strength?
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
Tenders,

Excellent point. The pump is a Rule 3700 gpm. The base is strong enough to hold up a car!

I wanted the top piece to be removable so I could access my manual bilge pump hose under this base and access the Rule 3700 strainer mounting bolts out of the boat. The two vertical pieces had to be wide enough to easily bond in threaded inserts for screws without being super precise. I used 1/4 - 20 screws which are way bigger than needed but easier to handle than little fiddly screws, hence the 3/4 inch verticals.

The top piece could have easily been as thin as 1/8 inch, but I was thinking like this was plywood since I hadn't worked with G10 before. All the pieces could easily be downsized to fit a smaller space. If the top were bonded to the verticals instead of removable then the verticals could be 1/8 inch also.

Mark
 

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