And...they still leak

So after removing the ports, taking them apart, resealing with the Catalina kit, replacing the wood veneer, and reinstalling them…they still leak! I had little to no confidence in the window’s ability to keep water out after taking them apart and seeing how they worked, but actually seeing the water drip down the newly finished plywood was maddening to say the least. From what I can see there’s a few places water is or will be getting in; at the joint where the two halves meet (mine didn’t have a gasket there so I placed some silicone one side before joining), at the seal where the glass meets the U channel (I used silicone in the Catalina kit on both sides of the provided gasket, but the glass didn’t seem to be cut correctly to force the gasket all the way down to the bottom of the channel, and along the flange where the window mates to the boat (the inner ring is bent and distorted from previous owners over tightening the screws, so there’s some places where the cabin top FRP and plywood aren’t thick enough for the ring to catch). The flange seal is my biggest concern, but I'm willing to bet if I fix that, the other 2 areas will be a problem in the near future. I’m thinking I have 3 options:

1. Try more butyl tape or a neoprene foam gasket on the old windows. I think it would also be a good idea to make a plastic shim that goes around the windows so the inner ring has more depth to clamp on to.
2. Accept boats, even my tiny E25+, are in fact a hole in the water…. and buy new ones from Bomon.
3. Have Lexan or Acrylic windows cut out and through bolt them in Dow 795 (I’d have to come up with a good looking ring on the inside to make this work)

I don’t really like any of the options, but I’m tired of these damn things leaking. I’m leaning towards the Lexan or Acrylic option. I’ve read a few threads on here about people successfully rehabbing their old windows or installing new Bomon, but no too many on replacing with Lexan. Does anyone have any tricks on getting the old flanges to seal or advice on replacing with plastic?

A portlight installed into a hole in the cabin house needs to be seated in a heavy bead of caulking. Yes, butyl will work, but caulking is better because it fills voids, if there are any.

On our typical opening portlights, the flange on the exterior is what provides permanence and strength against breaking seas. The mild adhesive character of caulk keeps it in place. The inside ring is only cosmetic, because a portlight doesn't have to withstand pressure from inside. No reason to over-tighten the interior ring.

A portlight unit that leaks through the glass seal, or because the unit is warped or old and damaged, has its own set of challenges.

But if the leak is at the flange, where the boat and the unit meet, yank it out and reseal it with caulk.

Dry fit the portlight and surround the external perimeter with blue tape first. Copious caulk should be squeezed out when the unit is installed. The interior ring covers it inside. The blue tape on the outside makes cleanup easier.

Sometimes giving up is the smartest way to go

trickdhat said:

So after removing the ports, taking them apart, resealing with the Catalina kit, replacing the wood veneer, and reinstalling them…they still leak! I had little to no confidence in the window’s ability to keep water out after taking them apart and seeing how they worked, but actually seeing the water drip down the newly finished plywood was maddening to say the least. From what I can see there’s a few places water is or will be getting in; at the joint where the two halves meet (mine didn’t have a gasket there so I placed some silicone one side before joining), at the seal where the glass meets the U channel (I used silicone in the Catalina kit on both sides of the provided gasket, but the glass didn’t seem to be cut correctly to force the gasket all the way down to the bottom of the channel, and along the flange where the window mates to the boat (the inner ring is bent and distorted from previous owners over tightening the screws, so there’s some places where the cabin top FRP and plywood aren’t thick enough for the ring to catch). The flange seal is my biggest concern, but I'm willing to bet if I fix that, the other 2 areas will be a problem in the near future. I’m thinking I have 3 options:

1. Try more butyl tape or a neoprene foam gasket on the old windows. I think it would also be a good idea to make a plastic shim that goes around the windows so the inner ring has more depth to clamp on to.
2. Accept boats, even my tiny E25+, are in fact a hole in the water…. and buy new ones from Bomon.
3. Have Lexan or Acrylic windows cut out and through bolt them in Dow 795 (I’d have to come up with a good looking ring on the inside to make this work)

I don’t really like any of the options, but I’m tired of these damn things leaking. I’m leaning towards the Lexan or Acrylic option. I’ve read a few threads on here about people successfully rehabbing their old windows or installing new Bomon, but no too many on replacing with Lexan. Does anyone have any tricks on getting the old flanges to seal or advice on replacing with plastic?

Click to expand...

I had similar issues with the head window of my E26. I removed it, worked on it and reinstalled it at least three times before I gave up and purchased a Lemar replacement. I never was able to determine the cause of the leak. The replacement looks good and is watertight. Unfortunately the size of the replacement is a little larger than the original so installation involved cutting a slightly larger hole.

Good luck with your project.

Captain Don
Gitana, E26

I guess I can give it another go...

My experience with caulk vs butyl tape is caulk has better adhesion properties, but butyl tape tends to fill voids better. One of my deciding factors on going with butyl tape was its ease of removal (I think I was admitting defeat before I even began). I guess I owe it to myself to try the caulk that was supplied with the Catalina kit before giving up. Thanks again for the advice Christian.

On a more positive note, I finally was able to sail this weekend. I'm hoping it gave me enough good feelings to endure another attempt at sealing these port lights.

Hi Nick,

My goals at the beginning of my port repair/replace project were to stop all leaking, be able to see out through clear lenses and refinish the teak to look like new.

I knew I would need to replace all four of my fixed trapezoidal portlights because the acrylic was so crazed and my exterior flanges were starting to fade and get brittle (but did not leak between the acrylic and channel). I replaced with a new set of Mark Plastics portlights with tinted safety glass instead of acrylic.

My four opening Gioit ports were also leaking and had crazed lenses. I got four new lenses and planned to keep the ports because I liked the cast aluminum frames. However, when I removed the first one to replace the teak around it and re-seal it, I saw that the design had two features which would make sealing them difficult. The cutout in the cabinside is large and has an odd size so there is very little flange overlap on the outside to seal out water. Worse, the spigot is attached to the INSIDE flange not the outside, so there is an additional gap to seal on the outside frame to prevent leaks. I decided that it just wasn't worth re-installing the Gioits so they could leak and ruin all my new teak. Lewmar size 1 ports have a larger cutout but just slightly larger overall size than the Gioits so they were the ideal size replacement. Fishery Supply sells the stainless frame version for the same price as the aluminum so I decided to replace these and (hopefully) never deal with them again.

If you sealed up the teak plywood edges of the port cutouts, any leaks shouldn't start rotting the teak so I would take a break and sail the boat for a while and then decide if you can repair/seal the ports/portlights or if replacing them makes more sense. I would be worried if the portlight frame is bent/mangled that it may never seal properly, but if you can fill the voids with butyl or caulk it may work. I used butyl for all 8 of mine and had to double thickness in several areas of two portlights to take up space and fill voids.

Mark

I went down to the boat yesterday to take a more level headed look at the situation and see where the leaks were. On the positive side only 1 out of the 5 fixed ports I resealed leaked. On the advice of many people on this forum, I did seal the edge and back of the new plywood with epoxy before reinstalling them so I think I have some time before the water starts rotting the new plywood. The leak is pretty bad and indicative of a bad seal between the flange and the boat. I think the curve of the cabin side is too much for the window frame. More clamping force than what the inner ring can provide, especially in its current condition, is required to bend the frame flush against the cabin side.

I started investigating why the Starboard side isn’t leaking but the port side is and I think I may have only used 1 layer of butyl tape on the port side. The Starboard side has butyl tape pinching out all around the flange, but the port side still has a sizeable gap under the forward curved edge. The flange doesn’t appear to be any different than the other side (from the manufacturer or from damage).

I like the idea of creating a seal with the Catalina Direct supplied caulk but after looking at the gap the curvature of the cabin side is creating I don’t think the caulk will adequately fill it. I’m going to try 2 layers of butyl tape and making a shim ring to go between the inner ring and the plywood. If that doesn’t work, I think it will be time to start pricing out new fixed ports.

Does everyone else’s fixed ports sit more flush with the side of the cabin top on their larger Ericsons? I took a stroll over to two other E25+/E26’s near me and found layers of caulk smeared over the outer edge of the flange covering the same sizeable gap I’m seeing on mine.

I'll stop beating this to death, but one last shot:

Caulk is designed to fill gaps. That's what caulk is. The window frames in your house are full of gaps filled with caulk. Wooden boats dried out had see-through gaps between planks that were filled with caulk so the boat would float while it swelled. Glue, epoxy, butyl tape etc are not caulk, they are designed for specific applications. Butyl shines as a replacement for bedding compound for deck fittings. Beyond that, in my opinion, it is at best an alternative with better solutions usually available. Butyl also oozes out and has even less adhesive power than caulk.

A popular caulk is Boatlife Life-Calk, a polysulfide. Specs to fill gaps up to 1/4 inch. Good above or below the waterline.

leaking ports

I also replaced my ports lights and used bulyt tape to seal. I then hosed the ports and found two leaks.

A search of this site and I found Captian Tulley's.. I applied it where the glass and gasket meet and the leaks stopped. I highly recommend this product.

MJS

trickdhat said:

I like the idea of creating a seal with the Catalina Direct supplied caulk but after looking at the gap the curvature of the cabin side is creating I don’t think the caulk will adequately fill it. I’m going to try 2 layers of butyl tape and making a shim ring to go between the inner ring and the plywood. If that doesn’t work, I think it will be time to start pricing out new fixed ports.

Does everyone else’s fixed ports sit more flush with the side of the cabin top on their larger Ericsons? I took a stroll over to two other E25+/E26’s near me and found layers of caulk smeared over the outer edge of the flange covering the same sizeable gap I’m seeing on mine.

Click to expand...

My port-side ports have that nasty smeared look. It is because after I finished the starboard-side ports, the tube of 3M polyurethane sealant actually burst in the caulk gun. I had to finish up with an improvised spatula and a whole roll of paper towels while trying not to get that sticky stuff all over everything else on the boat. Those port-side ports now leak. Not much from rain, but when solid water starts coming over the bow and washing over the cabin top, there is a continuous trickle. Also the one port sealed with butyl tape (two years old) leaks under those conditions. I guess the plan is to try to get them out again and finish up the job with 4200.

I've had good luck with closed cell tape in the space between the outer flange and the boat. However, if you fill that space with caulk I've heard that you should gently cinch the portlight, allow 24 hours and then tighten it the rest of the way.

Paul
E29 "Bear"

Yes, I was just thinking (foolishly optimistic) "I wonder if I forgot to go back the next day and tighten those screws?"

I'm a flip flopper

I thought I did a lot of research before ending up with the butyl tape solution, but there’s always more. To say this is a hot-button issue is an understatement. A quick search of all the popular sailing forums reveals quite a few heated discussions with no clear consensus. I still don’t completely understand why butyl tape is bad and caulk is good, but I did find a post in a forum that may have swung me in the direction of using caulk, at least for my leaking port.

It said butyl is the ideal bedding compound because it remains in a permanent putty-like state which is ideal for hardware moving underloads. However, the two issues with it are that it constantly oozes and that it doesn’t have any adhesive properties. The ooze is just something you have to accepted, but the adhesive issue is easily overcome by relying on a mechanical method of fastening. All deck hardware I can think of have a through-bolt or screws into the deck, so butyl is perfect and it explains why it’s worked for me in those situations.

I think the main point of discussion on these aluminum windows is its designed method of attachment. Is it meant to be stuck on with adhesion or mechanically fastened with the inner ring? I always thought the inner ring applied force to the flange and supplied the primary method of attachment. I still think this was how the window was designed because they were originally supplied with a foam gasket. It seems like the people in the caulk camp tend to believe the inner ring is just for ascetics and the primary method of attachment is adhesion, but the foam gasket didn’t provide any adhesion from the factory. All that being said, the foam gasket lasted 2 seasons if you were lucky, butyl doesn’t seem to be the silver bullet, so maybe there’s something to this adhesion idea. Who’s to say you can’t use the window differently than how it was intended to be used?

I know I’m coming across has someone who asked a question and isn’t taking the advice given, but sometimes these forums can function as a place to think something out too. Thanks for the help! Now I just have to do it…maybe a beer first.

Thinking for yourself is not discouraged.

For the record, many of us were introduced to the butyl world by R. C. Collins, ("Maine Sail"), who probably provides the most complete discussion/advocacy/instructions for use in the known world:

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/rebedding_hardware

Yup, that's exactly where I first read about it. Probably from a link on this site.

While I was looking around on some of the other sites, I stumbled on a thread at sail anarchy about a collapsed rig on one of the new Left Coast Darts. I don't think they're as open to free thought over there. Nice to have a place like ey.o. Thanks again.

I think of butyl being great for making a sandwich between dissimilar materials that are mechanically fastened together. Stanchion bases to the deck, the little rectangular stainless plates around chain plates where shrouds go through the deck, cheek blocks on the deck house etc. I don't think of it having any real ability to bridge much due to the sag and ooze and zero adhesion qualities. However, I have had success using butyl to bridge the rather large gap between my flat Yanmar engine control panel and the curved cockpit sides of Emerald. That gap goes from none to 1/4"+. Butyl sealed that non-stressed void pretty well. Meanwhile, I have had good luck using some 3M UV4000 adhesive caulk on all of the above excluding the panel, which I wouldn't want an adhesive of any type on. So, the portlights strike me as something that could go either way depending on clearances and method of physical attachment, but my gut puts me in the caulk court based on what you have done with the caveat of one question - what was the source of your butyl/is it as good as it should be? One of the things Maine Sail points out on his website is a wide range of current availability and performance. He does sell some that might have superior qualities to what you have in hand. No connection, just conveying what's on his website. And remember, everything I just wrote is basically just another opinion on the Internet and worth exactly what you paid for it.

Since we are just now having the first rain in three months, I am not sure how my butyl-rebedded portlights have fared. But, I am not expecting any leaks due to the amount of butyl squeezeout I got when I installed the inner compression rings. There were no leaks when washing it down. I did have to upsize the wood screws (dumb design!) in each hole in order to get them to "bite."

This technique worked for me on the last boat which has now gone over 6 years with no leaks. Hopefully that is the case now. I'll know more in a few days.

trickdhat,

I agree with mjsouleman. Captian Tolley's It really worked for me!

I did the port thing for the last 4 years.

- I tried the silicon strips which seemed to work for a while. Then, I think I misdiagnosed a leak and removed it. Stupid!
- Then closed cell foam tape because the ports are easy to remove. When the tape collapsed over time the leaks returned.
- Installed the Catalina kit and sealed the port to cabin top with buytl tape. Had trouble with the seal on the glass at the small radii and it leaked slowly again!

Last winter found a new leak! Water dripping through along the rub rail! Wow.
Used Captian Tolley's along the rub rail and at the windows. No leaks!

Perfection is overrated! Some of the people on this forum have way too much time on their hands.

G Kiba said:

trickdhat,

I agree with mjsouleman. Captian Tolley's It really worked for me!

I did the port thing for the last 4 years.

- I tried the silicon strips which seemed to work for a while. Then, I think I misdiagnosed a leak and removed it. Stupid!
- Then closed cell foam tape because the ports are easy to remove. When the tape collapsed over time the leaks returned.
- Installed the Catalina kit and sealed the port to cabin top with buytl tape. Had trouble with the seal on the glass at the small radii and it leaked slowly again!

Last winter found a new leak! Water dripping through along the rub rail! Wow.
Used Captian Tolley's along the rub rail and at the windows. No leaks!

Perfection is overrated! Some of the people on this forum have way too much time on their hands.

Click to expand...

This made me laugh. I wish we could just add a thumbs-up to a post sometimes.

I too agree that Boatlife caulk is the way to go, with copious amounts being squeezed out, and NOT tightening all the way until the caulk has set. But I also wanted to mention a problem I had with the cut outs for some ports being too big. A couple of the opening sides had almost no surface under the aluminum frame for the caulk to bond to. In those cases I found it worked well to build up a lip using Marine Tex before installation, but almost anything would work. A thick layer of caulk is not enough if it's less than 1/8" or so wide!

I may actually have the opposite problem. I went down last night to check on it again and found a large puddle on the settee below the problem window, so I removed it and added another layer of butyl tape in hope of slowing the leak down until I have more time to deal with it properly. I noticed the openings are almost too small and could be causing some binding that is keeping the frame from sitting flush on the cabin side. It seems like the more I look, the more potential issues I find with these things. It's an easier fix than adding material to shrink the opening but still requires some time with the ports out so I'm going to wait until the weather is nicer to investigate.