E38-200 Spinnaker rigging set up - Shorthanded

G'day like minded sailors,
I have recently purchased a second hand spinnaker - 0.75 oz symetrical I =47', for Merrimist 1986 E38-200. Now I am in the process of getting the pole and rigging sorted and would like to ask those of you who have experiance setting and use of extendable Forespar (old achool) pole.
I usually find myself sailing shorthanded so I would like to keep things simple yet safe and functional.
1. Pole fore-guy, used yes or no? If so, where attached to boat? For ex. onto bail at anchor roller or elsewhere? Control back to cockpit or on deck and made off.
2. Working Aftguy. Is this used or is the lazy sheet used for this purpose? Smaller boats I have not used an aftguy.
3. Port and stbd sheets used, lazy and working, are two seperate aft guy lines used, working and lazy?
4. Any words of advice and tips or tricks for the set up and use are all appreciated.

Please describe clearly or forward pics if possible of set up.

Cheerio.

Hammy in sunny Bermuda
Merrimust E38-200.

Hi Hammy,

This is a standard spinnaker, not an asym? Running a spinnaker shorthanded will keep you hopping.

You can't really use a whisker pole, or at least it isn't a good idea. Compression forces get strong.

IIRC, Andrew Evans has some spinnaker rigging and handling tips in his Singlehanded Sailing book.

Personally, I am still somewhat intimidated by the whole spaghetti feed, though I think I have figured out the PO's rigging. But we have had more 35 knot days than 5 knot days the last couple of seasons, so I haven't been too tempted. Surely, it will turn out to be one of those things more easily done than said? Sure, I use the spinnaker almost every week! ... as a nice pillow in the quarter berth.

E38 spinnaker rigging info requested

Hi Christian, thank you for your reply.

yes, I have bought a secondhand standard symmetrical spinnaker. Designed for a 40' Beneteau I am led to believe.

The Forespar pole that was part of the previous owner/s kit appears to be in a serviceable condition. Dia is 4" and length when on deck and stowed is 12', which can extend to 18' when sliding out inner tube. My first query is to confirm that it is in fact a spinnaker pole as opposed to a whisker pole as I note you comment on compression loads.

Second query is regarding a downhaul for the pole, there are no pad eyes on the foredeck to secure a foreguy or downhaul to, I have led a foreguy to the bail on the anchor roller to check the line, but am not particularly happy with the lead or wondering how much hardware I require to purchase to run this back at least to the (mast) or cockpit.

Third query, I am wondering about an afterguy, on smaller boats the lazy sheet becomes the afterguy, can I do the same or am I to run two afterguy's (if intending to gybe the spinnaker) or will the lazy sheet suffice.

I have the original owners manual, however the 4 pages at start of chapter 6 which in the index show the rigging are not in the manual.

Any comments and or advice is gratefully accepted.

Kind regards,

Hammy in sunny Bermuda.

QUOTE=Christian Williams;109031]Hi Hammy,

This is a standard spinnaker, not an asym? Running a spinnaker shorthanded will keep you hopping.

You can't really use a whisker pole, or at least it isn't a good idea. Compression forces get strong.[/QUOTE]

Hammy,

Been a while since I dealt with spinnakers, but since nobody else is chiming in here's what I would do in a non-racing, non-pushy environment:

--Use the whisker pole, just don't extend it. Four-inch is plenty strong. It will be a little short.

--Single guy and sheet. Fairly light line for light air use. I'd plan to douse before the wind comes up much.

--Pole lift, use spare halyard.

--Pole downhaul, use piece of line and just tie it off to a bow cleat or whatever's handy.

--Snatch blocks for the rail. Makes rigging easy.

--Spinnaker net. There are many forms of these , and you can make one yourself. A foul up high around the forestay is good to avoid.

Regarding the pole, in very light air I think you could even extend it a little as necessary. But as the wind comes up, and especially reaching, winching the guy puts a real vice on the pole and telescoping poles are just not designed for that .

The singlehanded transpac guys fly spinnakers all night, and control everything from the cockpit with all lines led back. They also often put their spreaders in the water.

I would not lead any spinnaker halyard or lift or downhauls back. Somebody should be at the mast and do the work from there.

Spinnaker socks are popular, and probably a good idea.

Cheers,
CW

1) Foreguy, yes, you need one. It generally goes through a block in the middle of the foredeck and then aft to the cockpit so it can be adjusted whenever the pole position is changed. If there is not a fitting on the foredeck, you may need to install (a pad-eye, or short length of track). You'll want to make sure the fitting is adequately backed; the foreguy on a symmetrical kite can have a fair amount of load. I would recommend *against* running the foreguy to a bail on the anchor roller.

2, 3 and 4) General best-practice for a symmetrical kite is to have a sheet on each side, and then clip an afterguy into the ring of the sheet shackle on each side (in other words, sheets and guys on both sides.) When on starboard gibe (for example), the pole would be on the starboard side with the starboard guy in the jaws, the starboard sheet would be "lazy" but still attached. The port sheet would be in use, and the port afterguy could (optionally) be unclipped from the ring if the weight is pulling down the clew. By clipping the guy shackle into the *ring* of the sheet shackle, they won't get twisted together and the sheet is always connected to the sail. Generally speaking, sheets are led to the aft-most corners of the boat, while afterguys often are led through a block on the rail at the *widest* point on the boat.

When gibing from starboard to port (for example), you'd reconnect the port "lazy" guy if it had been removed, and pull a length of it forward to the bow. During the gibe, the pole jaw is "tripped" (opened) to release the starboard guy, the pole would be swung forward and down (topping lift and foreguy) to a person in the pulpit, who snaps the port-guy into the jaw and pushes the pole aft. People in the cockpit adjust the pole's position on the new gibe using topping lift, foreguy and new (port) afterguy, while trimming the sail with the new (starboard) sheet.

In light air, you can probably use a single sheet on each side - the rigging is less complex, but it makes gibing a little more complicated as you don't have the ability to take a "lazy guy" up to the bow.

you didn't ask, but...) I'd recommend *against* using a whisker pole if you are going to be flying a spinnaker in any sort of breeze. As Christian says, a spinnaker pole can produce quite a bit of compression load, especially while reaching, and I haven't yet seen a whisker pole designed to take a lot of compression load. A spinnaker pole should be a one-piece tube, appropriately sized for the loads and configured with the appropriate fittings for gibing a symmetrical chute. This is not a place to scrimp (Bruce's Opinion), as breaking a pole under load can damage boat and injure people.

And, as Christian notes, a symmetrical kite will be a lot of work for solo sailing. the pole adds a lot of mission-tasks - not just in the sailing, but in hoisting and dousing - that you wouldn't have with an asymm.

Bruce

Re: Foreguy. A PO has blessed me with a double-block foreguy set-up that attaches to the pole bridle with a snap-shackle in the middle while the tails of the line are lead back on either side of the cabin to cam-cleats. There are two spring-blocks mounted on deck just behind the pulpit base on either side. As far as I know, the only advantage to this is so you can adjust the guy from either side of the boat. Seems like an awful lot of string on deck for this "convenience." Is there any other point to this set-up?



Sort of like this, except block A goes to the bridle, in the middle of the pole. I think.

toddster said:

Seems like an awful lot of string on deck for this "convenience." Is there any other point to this set-up?

Click to expand...

It also gives the trimmer a 2:1 advantage when trimming the foreguy, which can make it possible to get it done by hand rather than going to a winch.

That same page (from Harken) also yields this diagram, showing a 2:1 set-up with a single foreguy. This set-up is apparently supposed to be for "small" boats while the one above is recommended for "big boats." I guess my PO figured the 29 was sorta in-between and went for the big boys toys.

I suspect the "big boat / small boat" thing was more about the pole.

One diagram has the deck blocks forward, as if for a dip-pole set-up, the second diagram has the deck block in the middle of the foredeck as if for a end-for-end/bridle set up.

OK. Wasn't going to chime in, but here goes. I have two chutes on my 34. A 1/2oz "drifter that's good to about 8kns then you better have it down. It fills without a ripple on the water and is huge fun in almost no wind. The other spinnaker is a 1 1/2oz tri-radial that you can fly until your fear factor screams. The 34 will carry that chute in quite high winds scaring the pants off some of the crew. Because of my "super senior" age condition and the short handed condition my boat usually sails in, I now carry the tri-radial in an ATN sock which takes a lot of the muscling out of jibing and dousing it. I used to singlehand the chute all the time on my SJ26. The first time set the tri-radial on this boat, my daughter was the crew. When it popped, we looked at each other and said "We got it up. How in the H*** are we going to get it down". That 1700+sf is mighty impressive when it pops the first time. Oh, and the boat speed doubled almost instantly.

We fly the drifter as you normally would. It needs to be down before it really powers up. The ATN really makes the tri-radial manageable with a small crew. If you have a crew of 6 or 7, you don't have to worry too much, although we have occasionally gone shrimping with it during the take down effort. With the short crew, you have one guy go forward and he pulls down on the ATN down string and the chute magically collapses into the sleeve. When it is fully in the sleeve, the halyard is lowers and a long "snake" falls on the deck. WOW! Jibes are handled by dousing the chute with the ATN then resetting the pole on the other side, flipping the chute over then raising the ATN. No excitement. No skidding across the foredeck (no "fun"?). The only minus to the ATN that I see is you loose between 9" and 12" of hoist.

I do not use the lazy guy lazy sheet setup with this arrangement as I do not use the dip pole method of jibing. I only use very light sheets with the drifter and don't want the weight of that second set dragging the clew down. We don't jibe the tri-radial as such so we don't need them.

My spinnaker topping lift goes into the mast at approximately 2/3 the way up the mast. the down haul is a little behind the anchor locker at mid pole. The pole is 16' so it is 8' ahead of the mast. All terminations ate at the cockpit. All cockpit winches are Bariant 21 two speeds. In order to make it easier to short-handed douse the chute, I added a cam cleat on the mast on each side of the mast. I transfer the spinnaker halyard and topping lift to the clam cleats before takedown so that a single person can douse the chute, lower it and drop the pole without going aft to release anything. Using the Autohelm you can single hand with this arrangement. I haven't tried this yet but the time is coming.


If needed, I could send a few pix but I am out of state at the moment and can't take them.

We fly our chutes on Cinderella all the time (the winds in the Puget Sound are very fickle). We usually have no crew and are doublehanding, or we have a crew of 15 (where 3 are sailors) and are trying our best to beat the other beer can boats around the buoys on lake union.

Id say it all depends on what you are doing. If we are round the buoys racing, it's easier to launch the chute out of a bag and douse either in the companionway or down the forward hatch. (The dousing sock slows things down and gets things tangled when round the buoy racing). That way we can carry our jib while launching the chute and douse the jib after the chute fills.

When sailing single or double handed, the sock that Bob mentioned is really nice to have. It would be a challenge to douse into the companionway or down the hatch in a breeze double handed without experienced crew. It can be done double handed, but can also make a sail into a sea anchor in a hurry.

When cruising, we rarely fly a chute if the wind pipes up beyond 10kts. The jib and main get us going just as fast with much less effort (sightseeing, coffee making, dinner prepping, book reading). Being that we are departing next Sunday for our round the world voyage, we won't be doing the racing thing on Cinderella for a while. The 1/2 oz chute will be in the sock for when the winds are light and setting /jibeing will be made as easy as possible.

As for the fore guy, I bet you could pick up one of those low friction rings and a couple feet of dyneema and make a "soft block" that you could tie to one of your forward cleats. If you are cruising and plan to fly the kite in lighter winds.

I bought the lightest line available for our sheets/guys. They are tied to the clew and tack, not shackled. In very light wind conditions <5kts it makes a substantial difference, we can keep the boat moving around 2-3kts where before the sail would just flutter and collapse otherwise. (We are also electric and sail everywhere)

As for your pole, 4" is pretty beefy, I think that's the size of our spin pole, but ours doesn't collapse. You should be able to tell what it is intended for based on its connection to the mast. Most whisker poles clip to a ring on the mast, where most spinnaker poles on our sized boats clip over a little chode looking piece that is on a track. I can't comment on the loads.

It is worthy to note that a reaching strut would be great to have. We foolishly lost ours to Poseidon when I didn't lash it down while sailing from Victoria to Vancouver in some 8' seas. You might be able to get away without it if you run both a sheet and a guy to each clew of the spinnaker and run the guys to the widest part of the boat and the sheet to the aft corner. But this extra weight might cause the chute to collapse in very light winds.

I have my halyard run to the mast, and all other conteols in the cockpit. The foreguy and pole lift are next to each other in clam cleats so they can be easily operated in tandem, and the sheet/guy are run to my primary winches.

The furler we now have thanks to Sean on Sorcerer make this whole process much easier as we can just roll in our jib.

Hope me that helps,
-P

We have what I believe is the default pole fore guy system on the Olson-34, is having two swivel blocks, side by side on the fore deck. The line is double ended, and led to cam cleats on both sides of the aft cabin top. There is a quick-release-bail block that floats on the loop in that line where it goes thru both deck blocks. That bail (i.e. snap shackle) clips onto the ring on the bridle on our pole.
Works well and would usually be called a "big boat" system, unlike the pole downhaul used on small chutes that goes back to the base @ the front of the mast. The later is really nice, tho, in that you can play the chute forward or aft without adjust that downhaul. We had that on our former Niagara 26.

On a masthead boat like the bigger Ericson's and the Olson's I would also suggest having a strong-rated snatch block at the ready to attach on the edge of the deck up toward the shrouds for the heavily-loaded guy. That keeps it off the shrouds on a reach. I have not personally seen a 'reaching strut' on an E-38, but could imagine it being used.

Cheers,
Loren

I just saw the post and have a few comments

I often fly our chute short shorthanded (by Shorthanded have done with 2 but can do with 4 crew .
Pic below there are four on the boat.

Pole I agree with Christian would not make an attempt at flying the chute without a fixed length pole. The loads on the pole even in light air are significant.
Pole should have a trigger that can release outer end while standing at the mast. Nice if trigger is also at the outboard end of the pole

Need to have forequy attached. We have a block behind the anchor hatch in the center. We have a old heavy pole so often we don't have the foreguy tight but all it takes is a puff when the pole is not level and you will need the foreguy. Have set up with foreguy at bow. Works fine unless you are racing and need to change the jib from one side to the other. With foreguy on chain plate there is no room. I have not tried it but you may be ably to run a foreguy to the forward stantion on each side and run back to a cleat.

Sheet. I use a lazy guys and would not do otherwise. The spinnaker on the 38 is not a small sail. Run the guys to amidships on cars on the t track. Back block about at the stern pulpit. (I bought 5/16 I think) high tech line 2 pieces about 90 feet each I folded each line in half and looped it through itself around the snap shackle bail then lashed and put on a stopper so shackle does not get caught in the pole end.

Topping lift goes from block 3/4 up mast to spinlock cleat on mast through block at base of mast back to cleat. When short handed can do everything at the mast or get help with topping lift

Inboard track on mast must go high enough you can dip inside forestay


Shorthanded
Put spinnaker on bow not on leeward side
hook up sheets halyard etc
put both windard guy and lazy sheet in pole, Raise pole. Sheet guy until clew at pole and about a foot off forestay
Come off wind raise chute quickly from mast and cleat
Trim back on sheet to stop twist
Drop/ furl headsail. If you drop the headsail first spinnaker may fill and be difficult to raise or cause injury

Jibe
Raise inboard end to mark
carry lazy guy forward
(tough part) trigger outboard end drop outboard end start swing pole across. Hop forward hook lazy guy in outboard end hop back raise pole
If work right if boat has not been jibed yet and a little heal will help pole come across
Jibe boat

Takedown
Pole down chute down
Flake halyard
Raise jib to catch spinnaker
Drop pole make sure topping lift and jib sheets are clear
Keep spinnaker a little oversheeted
jibe boat come up a little on the wind

release halyard let it go
drop spinnaker down forward hatch

I leeward take down on a reach is very difficult when short of crew

Hammy,
I was just curious. How do you intend to use the spinnaker...daysailing, racing, or point-to-point cruising? A sail such as yours can be a challenge to manage shorthanded when something goes wrong....And there are many more practical fun options for shorthanded downwind sailing.
Mike Jacker

'many more fun options'

G'day Mike,

woll, most of my sailing these days is either single handed with 'George' the autopilot, or shorthanded with inexperienced crew.
Due to the fact that I originally wanted to purchase a ASSYMETRIC Spinnaker, I was talked into getting a symmetrical, which I would like to persevere with now.
My plan at the moment goes something like this: (but like all plans, is subject to change.)
first, get familiar with the gear and symmetrical spinnaker, now have to ensure I have all the accompaniment's, (read - more money) then hoist in light airs to continue to get used to hoisting/setting/trimming/dousing and stowing.
Then to do the same in more breeze, making changes on what suits best to use - hoist/set/trim/douse.
The aim is to enjoy the sailing, first then secondly to be familiar to use in round the cans summer evening (social) club racing and being able to use the spinnaker to keep up and if possible overtake one or three other PHRF keel boats ........boats, have fun and race but not seriously........ yeah right says the missus, I did not think I yelled
Occasional point to point - here in Bda - around the island and yes, as it will more than likely turn out, short handed down wind sailing for the satisfaction of it all.

The main point is to enjoy the boat and sailing, have it sail well whilst I am at it, am I dreaming - yes, possibly, and that is the great part.

So anyway, I am open to suggestions, happy to hear some of your 'many more practical fun options'.

Hammy in sunny Bermuda

Joliba said:

Hammy,
I was just curious. How do you intend to use the spinnaker...daysailing, racing, or point-to-point cruising? A sail such as yours can be a challenge to manage shorthanded when something goes wrong....And there are many more practical fun options for shorthanded downwind sailing.
Mike Jacker

Click to expand...

You'll love it. Just get somebody who has a spinnaker to go out with you first time.

The rigging, hoist and douse is hard to describe, and the right drill is important to avoid fairly elaborate complications.

The symmetrical spinnaker is so much more versatile than the assem. For deep downwind sailing, it is the only one that really works. It is more work to set up but very worth it. Check out the ATM sock for shorthanded work. Makes life a lot easier. Turtles work better than spinnaker bags.

Have fun!

Hammy,
A traditional spinnaker is a magnificent and usually beautiful sail that should always bring great satisfaction to fly. I also tend to back into new commitments in life (e.g. first get the spinnaker, then spring for the expense of the gear required to use it properly.) For your intended use, it should prove to be a worthwhile acquisition. When using it for racing, I would advise you to bring more than shorthanded crew, as things happen fast.
My experience: I once had a traditional chute on a 30 foot boat, double handed for a year of voyaging. We only flew it a few times, preferring instead two jibs poled out port and starboard. For my E38, I recently bought an inexpensive used asymmetric cruising spinnaker with a sock from a friend. I have already flown it several times double handed for daysailing and for short point to point trips on Lake Michigan. It is much simpler than a conventional spinnaker. If I could afford it, a cruising A-sail on a removable top down furler would be my ideal preference, as I am not racing this boat.
I think that there have been many good "how to" suggestions on this thread. I do like Christian's suggested foretriangle net to deter hourglass wraps around the forestay. You could be below in the head and come on deck to find that George has jibed and fouled the chute. (My wheelpilot, also named George, has a mischievous temperament.) You are also likely to be on the other side of Bermuda just as it is getting dark when this occurs.
Enjoy the sail!
Mike