Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 19

Thread: Ericson 32-3 Fin Keel vs Shoal Keel question

  1. #1
    New Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    NJ - NY area
    Posts
    3

    Ericson 32-3 Fin Keel vs Shoal Keel question

    Hi,
    I have a question regarding Fin Keel (6ft) vs Shoal Keel (4.4ft) performance in Ericson 32 MKIII.
    Anybody has experience with both and could share it?
    I understand that shoal keel boat will not sail as well upwind as fin (deep) keel - how bad is shoal keel here comparing to fin keel?
    I知 even more concerned about shoal keel 32-3 ability to handle heavy seas.
    I read that this boat sailed through Pacific to Hawaii but I知 assuming it was fin keel - would it be possible (safe) to do the same in shoal keel Ericson 32-3?
    Is rudder length the same in both models?
    Thank you

  2. #2
    Senior Moderator Loren Beach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Portland, OR. Columbia River
    Posts
    6,795
    Blog Entries
    49

    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by skimrgey View Post
    Hi,
    I have a question regarding Fin Keel (6ft) vs Shoal Keel (4.4ft) performance in Ericson 32 MKIII.
    Anybody has experience with both and could share it?
    I understand that shoal keel boat will not sail as well upwind as fin (deep) keel - how bad is shoal keel here comparing to fin keel?
    I知 even more concerned about shoal keel 32-3 ability to handle heavy seas.
    I read that this boat sailed through Pacific to Hawaii but I知 assuming it was fin keel - would it be possible (safe) to do the same in shoal keel Ericson 32-3?
    Is rudder length the same in both models?
    Thank you
    The only concern I might have between the two models is whether the rudder depth might - maybe - let the shoal keel model ground the rudder at the same time on the same sand bar. If you have over six feet of depth most everywhere you go boating, no problem.
    (A couple of weeks ago I stuck our keel in the mud in a notoriously-silted-in port on the lower Columbia River, and our rudder never quite touched. Soft bottom would not have harmed either fin, but did stop us for about 10 minutes until the tide filled in a bit...)

    As for sailing upwind, more keel is generally good, but is only one in a list of design factors. That model might lose a couple of degrees of pointing, but that efficient hull form has some efficiency to spare, IMHO.

    I have no idea where the question about 'heavy seas' comes from. That should be a non issue. Remember that the Ericson has an efficient-shaped LEAD keel, and not the (literally) cheap cast iron keel on many cheaper production boats nowadays. While sellers of floating "vacation homes that sail a little bit" will avoid this part of the conversation, it's a Big Deal when you are in the ocean. I have done a coastal (Washington) overnight delivery on an E-32/3, and the hull form was comfortable (!) in areas of steep waves and chop. Boat was very solid - you could tell that the interior was completely tabbed in to hull and deck, just like my O-34. More expensive to build but best by far to own and trust thirty years later.
    :grin:

    So, while I have not sailed the shoal keel model, I know enough sailors of this and other brands to believe that this would not be a deal-killer. Matter of fact, if we ever moved up to a larger EY boat, we would accept a shoal keel model with no hesitation.

    Regards,
    Loren
    1988 Olson 34 #8
    Sail # 28400
    Universal M25XP
    Fresh Air
    Portland, OR USA

  3. #3
    Contributing Partner
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    131
    Loren,
    Do you know when they started tabbing the interiors to the hull fully? Apparently my 35-2 only had the interior tabbed to the interior pan, which was tabbed to the hull in a few places.

    I know now this because the hull pan broke free on a PO and he watched the interior sway independently from the hull on a trip back north from MX.

    He proceeded to hack the interior out and start fresh, now everything is tabbed.

    What that hat something that started with the tri-axial grid?

    -P

  4. #4
    New Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    NJ - NY area
    Posts
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Beach View Post
    The only concern I might have between the two models is whether the rudder depth might - maybe - let the shoal keel model ground the rudder at the same time on the same sand bar. If you have over six feet of depth most everywhere you go boating, no problem.
    (A couple of weeks ago I stuck our keel in the mud in a notoriously-silted-in port on the lower Columbia River, and our rudder never quite touched. Soft bottom would not have harmed either fin, but did stop us for about 10 minutes until the tide filled in a bit...)

    As for sailing upwind, more keel is generally good, but is only one in a list of design factors. That model might lose a couple of degrees of pointing, but that efficient hull form has some efficiency to spare, IMHO.

    I have no idea where the question about 'heavy seas' comes from. That should be a non issue. Remember that the Ericson has an efficient-shaped LEAD keel, and not the (literally) cheap cast iron keel on many cheaper production boats nowadays. While sellers of floating "vacation homes that sail a little bit" will avoid this part of the conversation, it's a Big Deal when you are in the ocean. I have done a coastal (Washington) overnight delivery on an E-32/3, and the hull form was comfortable (!) in areas of steep waves and chop. Boat was very solid - you could tell that the interior was completely tabbed in to hull and deck, just like my O-34. More expensive to build but best by far to own and trust thirty years later.
    :grin:

    So, while I have not sailed the shoal keel model, I know enough sailors of this and other brands to believe that this would not be a deal-killer. Matter of fact, if we ever moved up to a larger EY boat, we would accept a shoal keel model with no hesitation.

    Regards,
    Loren
    Thank you.
    If it's only 2 degrees upwind that's ok, but if it is more, say 5, then no good - I don't want to be losing all the time to all those small, old Hunters, Pearsons and Catalinas I'll be racing against.
    Heavy seas questions comes form my worries that it will not have enough righting moment with short keel.
    In case it has shorter rudder - this rudder will be less effective when healed while sailing through big waves.

  5. #5
    Senior Moderator Loren Beach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Portland, OR. Columbia River
    Posts
    6,795
    Blog Entries
    49

    Question When commenced the TAFG

    Quote Originally Posted by p.gazibara View Post
    Loren,
    Do you know when they started tabbing the interiors to the hull fully? Apparently my 35-2 only had the interior tabbed to the interior pan, which was tabbed to the hull in a few places.

    I know now this because the hull pan broke free on a PO and he watched the interior sway independently from the hull on a trip back north from MX.

    He proceeded to hack the interior out and start fresh, now everything is tabbed.

    What that hat something that started with the tri-axial grid?

    -P
    If Seth checks in, he will probably know because he worked there in the early 80's, but my take on it is that when they went to "stick-built" wood interiors in the late 70's, they started tabbing pieces and assemblies to the hull and deck. They also started molding out partial interior "grid" structures at the time and those had to be adhered to the hull.
    Full tabbing really started with the whole 80's design series, and of course our 'partial grid' in the Olson's. I have pulled enough staples off in various parts of our cabin overhead to say with confidence that every plywood part and frp molding in our boat is fully tabbed to hull and deck.

    I would guess that the later E-35-2 (78 - 79) was a transition boat, with it's stick-built interior rather than the overhead frp molding used in the older ones. Just a guess, tho.

    Loren
    1988 Olson 34 #8
    Sail # 28400
    Universal M25XP
    Fresh Air
    Portland, OR USA

  6. #6
    Senior Moderator Loren Beach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Portland, OR. Columbia River
    Posts
    6,795
    Blog Entries
    49

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by skimrgey View Post
    Thank you.
    If it's only 2 degrees upwind that's ok, but if it is more, say 5, then no good - I don't want to be losing all the time to all those small, old Hunters, Pearsons and Catalinas I'll be racing against.
    Heavy seas questions comes form my worries that it will not have enough righting moment with short keel.
    In case it has shorter rudder - this rudder will be less effective when healed while sailing through big waves.
    It's worth remembering that the Ericson is a Bruce King design, and not something composed by a marketing team. When a shorter keel is/was fitted, it also has a compensating amount of additional lead in it. Your Righting Moment" will be just fine.

    While you might lose to one of those other brands sometimes in a club race, it will be mostly due to tactics, and next due to shape of your sails, and of course how you plan and execute maneuvers on the course.

    Note that most of those competitors are designed to actually sail reasonably well, but only within a narrow window (aka "envelope") of conditions. Wind between 10 and 16, and seas/waves under 3 feet max. Nothing wrong with their limitations, as long as the owners know what their limitations are (script nod to Clint Eastwood's famous detective).

    I know of owners of "cheaper" boats that would logically argue that I have had little need for the strength built into our O-34, in over 20 seasons. OTOH, I and my delivery crew friends were mightily pleased a few years ago when we crossed the Columbia River Bar to head up the Washington coast in rather rough conditions. Steep seas. As it was "humorously" put, for over an hour it was: "up 8 feet, down 5 feet, 6 to the left, and then to the right, Rinse, and repeat. No groans or squeaks from the boat at all, and we just kept a firm grip.
    (Yes, our timing to cross after the ebb slack was off by about an hour... after about 30 crossings you'd think the skipper might know better...)
    Speaking in the third person, he hoped to get smarter as well as older, but one has occurred more reliably than the other.

    Cheers,
    Loren
    Last edited by Loren Beach; 08-11-2017 at 09:07 AM.
    1988 Olson 34 #8
    Sail # 28400
    Universal M25XP
    Fresh Air
    Portland, OR USA

  7. #7
    Contributing Partner
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    South Shore of Long Island NY
    Posts
    172
    Blog Entries
    1

    Shoal Vs Full Fin

    Most Often the Shoal Keel is a few hundred pounds heaver to give the same "righting" ability of the deeper fin keep.

    I see many shoal draft Ericson 32s on the Great South Bay of NY... We have thin water, so any keel is over 5 foot is difficult here.

    rick
    Pax et Bene
    Rick e29

  8. #8
    New Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    NJ - NY area
    Posts
    3
    Yes, I've heard only good things about either model.
    However, I think on a few occasions owners of shoal draft Ericson-32 while happy with their boats wished they had long keel.
    It would be nice to try both - especially to jump from long fin keel to shoal - would it be like trying 4 cylinder car right after driving 6 cylinder model? :-)

  9. #9
    Senior Moderator Loren Beach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Portland, OR. Columbia River
    Posts
    6,795
    Blog Entries
    49
    Quote Originally Posted by skimrgey View Post
    Yes, I've heard only good things about either model.
    However, I think on a few occasions owners of shoal draft Ericson-32 while happy with their boats wished they had long keel.
    It would be nice to try both - especially to jump from long fin keel to shoal - would it be like trying 4 cylinder car right after driving 6 cylinder model? :-)
    You probably know this, at least intuitively, but there is no "binary" answer to the right depth for a fin keel. If you have totally deep waters, then you would want a deeper fin, like 8 feet of draft. It would have a modern elliptical shape (imho) and of course be cast of lead. In the real world even in areas with generally good depth, there will be many harbors with limited draft. Note that when ports dredge to a stated depth, it is likely to be about 6 foot MAXIMUM. Matter of fact we were hard aground in a mud bottom @ the Port of Astoria a week ago for a couple of hours when the tide was out. No harm, but inconvenient. We were also briefly aground at another smaller port up the river when trying to access their fuel dock float.
    Further, if we happen upon a winning Lotto ticket, I would have our present fin shortened a foot and a split lead torpedo bulb added to the bottom.
    A company, Mars Metals, does this for boats routinely.

    So, IF our boat had a 7 foot fin, yes, we could point a degree closer to weather. Just view this performance thing as a sliding scale, rather than "either or".

    Heck, there are two C&C-30's in my area, both with a one foot fin piece of lead added to the base of their fin keels. Both fast, but they have had to live with an approx 7' draft, since this was done in the 80's. Both owners were *very* hard core competitors at the time, and took a rating hit from PHRF. Of course any added wetted surface would slightly slow them down off the wind... and so it goes.


    And, to further beat the expiring horse, do Not underestimate the hull and rig design in that Ericson. While my friend Bob likes to insist that my Olson is much faster than his E-34, side by side for hours, we are extremely close in performance.
    Bruce King NA is *that* good.
    (Ya, the Olson be faster off the wind in big air, but that is only one facet of performance....)

    Cheers,
    Loren
    1988 Olson 34 #8
    Sail # 28400
    Universal M25XP
    Fresh Air
    Portland, OR USA

  10. #10
    Principal Partner
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Port Angeles, WA
    Posts
    504
    All performance is relative. If you are sailing a Westsail 32 (god forbid) everything out there is ungodly fast and points ungodly well. One of the selling points of the keel/centerboard boats is this ability to "suck it up" without giving up too much to weather. Of course complication is added. I bet Loren would have liked the early warning system of the centerboard bumping on the bottom at Astoria. The shoal draft does give up a little to weather compared to the deep draft and can carry sail a little less well (reef earlier) but still will sail right over the top of most of the comparable boats out there. If you are not a hard core racer where boat position counts, who cares? The shoal draft version is still faster than almost everything out there except for the hard core racers and it sure as heck is a lot more comfortable.

    That said, my 34 is deep draft (everything is relative).
    Bob Morrison
    1987 E-34 Hull #15
    "Terra Nova"

  11. #11

    no shoal for whats its worth unless absolutely required

    In our marina we have both a shoal draft version and the competition keel version. Safety wise i would think they are both fine. However if you want to race I would rule out the shoal version. It clearly does not point as well and may be slower off the wind. Back in the 80's I doubt there are accurate vpps but being able to point even a degree or 2 higher when you are on the lee bow of another boat turns into miles.

    We have the 38 with the deep keel it sails fantastic. The 35-3 with the deep keel also sails fantastic (Check results of Sea Maiden in San Diego)
    Compare the phrf between the sd models 10 seconds a mile is huge and the most likely assumes only 1/3 of the race is upwind
    Google Ericson phrf 32-3 results and get a feel for how well they do)

    If you want to race a 35-3 34-2 0r 38 with the deep keel are very phrf competitive
    Stay away from the shoal draft adding a phrf adj for the keel you will be at 162-165 with the 32-3 not near the front of the pack
    It is kind of like the yacht clubs that add 6 seconds for the non spinnaker fleet. In a light air down wind race there is not a big enough adjustment in the world.

    You can always improve your sails to get a little bit extra but to change a keel is expensive

    If racing against similar racer cruiser boats catalina pearson (No uldb or surfboard penalty) etc as the wind dyes in the late afternoon near the end of the race the fastest boat usually wins. Thus more times than not a 32-3 will correct over a 32-2 and 35-3 will correct over a 32-3 etc

    RICSON 32-2 174
    ERICSON 32-3/200/333 156
    ERICSON 33 126
    ERICSON 34 138
    ERICSON 34-2 123
    ERICSON 34T 150
    ERICSON 35-1 195
    ERICSON 35-2 150
    ERICSON 35-3 123
    ERICSON 35-3 SD 132
    ERICSON 36 108
    ERICSON 37 120
    ERICSON 38 114
    ERICSON 38 SD 120
    ERICSON 38 WK 123
    Last edited by e38 owner; 08-11-2017 at 11:10 AM.

  12. #12
    Principal Partner
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Port Angeles, WA
    Posts
    504
    In a quick check of the ratings, one set stands out. The 34 has a rating of 138 and the 35-3 has a rating of 122. These are the same boat rating wise. They have the same hull except the 35 is bumped out slightly on the stern to give it a sharper rake and they share the mast and rigging. This means that the boats are prepped differently. My guess is the 34 has a fixed prop and a 130 for the jib where the 35 has a folding prop and a 150 for the rating. Both probably have spinnakers. The 35 is actually rating below it's base rating of 126. Must be a competitive guy.

    This is an excellent time to see what changes in the boat impact the rating. Do you have any clue how the boats are set up? I know the fixed prop is a biggee.
    Bob Morrison
    1987 E-34 Hull #15
    "Terra Nova"

  13. 08-11-2017, 12:59 PM

  14. #13
    Sustaining Partner Bolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Annapolis, MD
    Posts
    225

    Points fine

    Quote Originally Posted by skimrgey View Post
    Hi,
    I have a question regarding Fin Keel (6ft) vs Shoal Keel (4.4ft) performance in Ericson 32 MKIII.
    Anybody has experience with both and could share it?
    I understand that shoal keel boat will not sail as well upwind as fin (deep) keel - how bad is shoal keel here comparing to fin keel?
    I知 even more concerned about shoal keel 32-3 ability to handle heavy seas.
    I read that this boat sailed through Pacific to Hawaii but I知 assuming it was fin keel - would it be possible (safe) to do the same in shoal keel Ericson 32-3?
    Is rudder length the same in both models?
    Thank you
    Our 32-3 on the Chesapeake Bay has a shoal keel which is an advantage on the bay. It can point up to 30 degrees with no problem. I have no experience with the full keel so I can't make any comparison. Last weekend we were sailing in 25 knot winds with 3 foot plus seas (reefed with a 60% jib) and it handled well with speeds around 7+ knots at times. Now I've never been ocean sailing but I've been told that conditions on the Chesapeake Bay can be as bad as the ocean because of the shorter distance between waves in a blow. I don't know if Christian Williams boat, the one that sailed to Hawaii, had a shoal or full keel. The owner is on this site but he changed the name of the boat after Christian sold it to him. But you can ask Christian after he returns from Hawaii on his "new" 38. He's about 1/3 of the way home or so now. All I can say is that the E32-3 with the shoal keel handles very well and I wouldn't be surprised if the full keel handles a bit better. I took a look at my old survey from when I purchased the boat and it looks like the rudder is the same length, possible a little bit shorter.
    Bob & Beverly Skalkowski
    1987 E32 III - "Vesper"
    Home: Middletown, PA

  15. #14
    Advanced Beginner bgary's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Everett, WA
    Posts
    627
    Blog Entries
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by Bolo View Post
    I don't know if Christian Williams boat, the one that sailed to Hawaii, had a shoal or full keel. The owner is on this site but he changed the name of the boat after Christian sold it to him.
    She has the deep keel.
    "Makana" (ex-Thelonious)
    1985 Ericson 32-III #604
    Makana blog: here

  16. #15
    Principal Partner Rick R.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,262
    Blog Entries
    2
    Shoal wing keel here. She kicks butt in all conditions. Yesterday we were at 7 plus knots on close reach, beam reach and broad reach in 15 knot winds.

    We sail both in shore and off shore and she handles both very well. I think her weakest point of sail is broad reaching with quartering seas. She's fast there, but needs a steady helmsman.

    Ponting 30 with the traveler / boom centered and the jib at the spreaders, draws attention.

    Love this boat!
    1989 32-200
    S/V "Easy"
    (hull #844)
    Pensacola, Florida

    The difference between a sailboat and a power boat? On a powerboat you rush to get somewhere. On a sailboat, you're already there.

Similar Threads

  1. Keel question
    By bruce v in forum Design & Function
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-05-2017, 02:56 PM
  2. Keel question
    By mateo in forum Maintenance & Mechanical
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 11-13-2015, 11:29 AM
  3. '69 E-41 keel question
    By wtlnsteve in forum Maintenance & Mechanical
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 04-29-2011, 12:28 PM
  4. Ericson 32-3 shoal keel vs deep keel
    By Art in forum Design & Function
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 09-02-2010, 06:36 PM
  5. Shoal vs Std Keel on E26/E25+
    By markvone in forum Design & Function
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-13-2009, 08:53 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •