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fuel/engine woes

cooper999

Member II
Hey all:

I realize this is more of a generic vs. Ericson specific issue, but the wealth of knowledge here is considerable. We took a trip to Rock Hall (across the Bay from Baltimore) this weekend, and had virtually no wind on the return trip yesterday, resulting in a 4-5 hour motor. Motor purred like a kitten until just after we passed Key Bridge with a storm approaching, which we were racing to get back to the marina. Best laid plans. Motor died, which I attributed to needing a filter change. We anchored during the storm and did just that, but while starting up the electric pump to bleed, I noticed that it didn't seem to have the same suction force it usually did.

Motor started up again fine and was fine out of gear, but under load, revs would drop and eventually stall unless I shifted to neutral. This made for a tense trip through the outer harbor with a nervous guest crew (and me being in 50-ft. depth water), but we were able to limp her back to the slip.

Does this sound like a fuel contamination issue, whereby gunk may be either blocking the pickup in the tank, or even within the fuel pump? I have a Facet goldflo that is located after the primary filter (racor), which I think has a built-in filter am an unsure of the mesh size (racor mesh is 10 micrograms). Could this be an injector issue (not serviced since we've had her)?

Just want to troubleshoot before lathering myself in diesel again, which doesn't seem to be great for the skin.:rolleyes:

Thanks for any input, as always appreciated.
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Hi,
I had thought that some of the experts on this site would have commented today, but as no one has done so, I'll offer some thoughts based on my experience owning our boat for 11 years, and other boats for an additional 14 years. But I'm not a mechanic.

When my fuel pump failed, I would bleed the engine, it would run for about 20 minutes and gradually falter and then quit even when the gear was in neutral. I don't think the pump can differentiate forward from neutral, so the engine should run in either. The only exception is if the load on the engine increases in gear, and there is a partial block, then it would falter in gear but perhaps not in neutral. But at low rpms in either forward or neutral, it should be the same.

Also, if there are injector pump issues, it should also be the same regardless of which gear it's in.

One test that helped me from Nigel Calder's book suggested connecting a fuel hose directly to the fuel tank, then to the fuel pump and then from the fuel pump into a pail partially filled with diesel fuel, immersing the hose in that pail. Then run the fuel pump to see if it runs, and watch for tiny pin head size bubbles in the pail with diesel. If the pump runs, and there are tiny bubbles, it means that there is a small leak in the fuel pump which admits air which will cause the engine to stall in time. So it's basically a test of the fuel pump.

If the fuel pump is fine, (and the screen filter in the pump is clean) check the glass bowl in the Racor filter to see if there is sediment. If so, change the filter.

Some fuel tanks have a screen filter at the bottom of the pipe, which can get clogged. I removed the pipe from the tank, and mine was clear, but if yours is not, then maybe the fuel tank needs to be cleaned/polished.

I'm puzzled that your engine ran fine for several hours, and only began to create problems as you approached your marina--maybe that suggests gunk in the bottom of the fuel tank that got mixed around through the waves and then got drawn into your filters and caused problems. By changing the filters, you were able to get into dock, but maybe there is just too much sediment in the fuel tank and it began to clog again.

Basically, with clean fuel, a working fuel pump, enough oxygen and a reasonably functioning engine, it should run.

Maybe my ramblings might jog some thoughts to help you. Let's also see what others suggest. And let us know how your problem solving goes, and we might have additional thoughts.

Good luck!

Frank
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
I would guess that there is still air in the system between the filters and the engine. It could certainly be a partial blockage somewhere, but unless you have really stirred up the fuel in rough water, it would seem more like air in the system. You also could have introduced a leak that draws air into the system continuously. What you describe doesn't sound like injectors to me. An electric pump sounds different under different loads. If you had a blocked filter, after replacing it you'll hear the pump cycle faster until the air is gone and change further still when the bleed ports and valve are closed.

Keep us posted with your findings. Hope you find the problem fast.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
It does sound like air in the system. That is almost always the highest probability after a filter change, esp. under way in hurried conditions.

Re-seat the Racor seals, then bleed carefully with leisure in the slip until a steady steam of fuel comes out of the fuel line where it enters the injectors area. If the Racor housing is original, be suspicious of it and look for cracks or just old age. The 200 series Racor is particularly susceptible to air leaks.
 

frick

Member III
Water in Fuel ?

In thinking around the already stated comments.

1: I know that if a yanmar primary fuel filter gets wet... You can start and run the engine a slow speeds, but it will will starve for fuel if you turn up the RPMs...

Rick+
 

cooper999

Member II
Thanks, everyone.

Thinking through this further, this was essentially the first long motor (4 hours plus) we've had. We left during the day Friday, and there wasn't much traffic kicking up wake to bounce the boat/agitate the fuel in the tank, which was nearly full.

On the way back, though, plenty of wake from traffic despite glassy conditions (hence the motoring) and a lot more bouncing with diminished fuel levels on the tank. It may be a slight stretch, but I figure if there's gunk in the tank, with a lower fuel level, the sloshing may be more effective in dislodging it.

Another wrinkle: I recently added biocide (biobor) for the first time about 6 weeks ago after we splashed (late) for the season. Last season, we did have the fuel polished, but probably not a wholesale tank polishing as the company that did the polishing did not open the tank (I don't think we have an inspection port-if we do, it is difficult to access as it's covered with plywood in the location it would be). I noticed there was decidedly more water in the racor bowl after we splashed, and think that the yard may have inadvertently sprayed water in the tank fill vent while power washing after hauling. There was some gunk and about a quarter inch of water in the racor bowl when I changed the filters.

Seeing as we changed both primary and secondary filters, I am first going to remove the fuel pickup to inspect for a clogged screen (assuming there is one). If it's gunked up, that may explain a lot, and perhaps why the fuel pump (new, less than a year old) seemed to be noticeably laboring more to pull fuel into the racor/through the lines. From there, I'll check the fuel pump filter, even though that is after the racor in the series.

I don't discount that there may be air entering the system, but I had all the fuel lines changed out last season after noticing some surface cracks on them. So unless it's the racor (and I'll check clamps but haven't noticed anything) or the new fuel pump, I'm not sure where it could be coming from.

Assuming it is a gunked up fuel pickup screen, have others removed the screen to prevent this from happening? I've read on sailnet/elsewhere that many have done this, but wondered if any Ericson folks had as well and if there are any downsides to doing this.

Sorry for the mega post, but want to troubleshoot this as thoroughly as possible before the inspections begin.
 

ref_123

Member III
If you have Racor 500 filter for the primary, check the orientation of the insert - misalignment may cause the fuel flow cut-off.

Also, did you notice black soot in the exhaust by any chance, particularly on high revs?

Regards,
Stan


Thanks, everyone.

Thinking through this further, this was essentially the first long motor (4 hours plus) we've had. We left during the day Friday, and there wasn't much traffic kicking up wake to bounce the boat/agitate the fuel in the tank, which was nearly full.

On the way back, though, plenty of wake from traffic despite glassy conditions (hence the motoring) and a lot more bouncing with diminished fuel levels on the tank. It may be a slight stretch, but I figure if there's gunk in the tank, with a lower fuel level, the sloshing may be more effective in dislodging it.

Another wrinkle: I recently added biocide (biobor) for the first time about 6 weeks ago after we splashed (late) for the season. Last season, we did have the fuel polished, but probably not a wholesale tank polishing as the company that did the polishing did not open the tank (I don't think we have an inspection port-if we do, it is difficult to access as it's covered with plywood in the location it would be). I noticed there was decidedly more water in the racor bowl after we splashed, and think that the yard may have inadvertently sprayed water in the tank fill vent while power washing after hauling. There was some gunk and about a quarter inch of water in the racor bowl when I changed the filters.

Seeing as we changed both primary and secondary filters, I am first going to remove the fuel pickup to inspect for a clogged screen (assuming there is one). If it's gunked up, that may explain a lot, and perhaps why the fuel pump (new, less than a year old) seemed to be noticeably laboring more to pull fuel into the racor/through the lines. From there, I'll check the fuel pump filter, even though that is after the racor in the series.

I don't discount that there may be air entering the system, but I had all the fuel lines changed out last season after noticing some surface cracks on them. So unless it's the racor (and I'll check clamps but haven't noticed anything) or the new fuel pump, I'm not sure where it could be coming from.

Assuming it is a gunked up fuel pickup screen, have others removed the screen to prevent this from happening? I've read on sailnet/elsewhere that many have done this, but wondered if any Ericson folks had as well and if there are any downsides to doing this.

Sorry for the mega post, but want to troubleshoot this as thoroughly as possible before the inspections begin.
 

cooper999

Member II
Hey Stan,

I have a 200 series racor (I believe 220 is the specific model, goes with the 24t spin-ons). No soot from the exhaust.

If you have Racor 500 filter for the primary, check the orientation of the insert - misalignment may cause the fuel flow cut-off.

Also, did you notice black soot in the exhaust by any chance, particularly on high revs?

Regards,
Stan
 

Navman

Member III
fuel/ engine woes

I had the same problems and the cause turned out to be many "little" things. I just could not get the air out of the system. While trying to troubleshoot, I bumped the fuel line going to the lift pump and I saw fuel squirt out. Old line. Replaced the line and still wouldn't run right. I always bleed the injectors after doing fuel related repairs. Then checked the fuel line from the tank to the fuel pump. It was a copper line. The pick up tube was clear but was not getting full flow, replaced the line with a flexible one rated for marine diesel. Still not good. Replaced the fuel pump as it seemed to be original. Ok, now getting good flow on the other side of the pump going to the primary filter. Now not able to get all of the air out of the bowl. Tried re-seating the filter and even put another one on with no change, bypassed the primary and went straight to the secondary. Seemed to work better but not great. Then people on this post said they use their bleeder knob near the lift pump to bleed it. Turned out my knurled bleeder knob had been broken off by a P.O. Replaced that and BAM! All was good. I had previously cut access ports into my fuel tank so I knew that the fuel was clean, so I ran it for the balance of the season without the primary filter. Over the winter I ordered another upgraded primary Racor housing and installed it. All is working fine now. So ultimately I ended up replacing ALL of the fuel lines, fuel pump (from auto parts store) bleeder valve, and primary filter housing. The Racor filter housing was a little pricey but was worth it as the old one had a slight ding in the threads which is why it would not completely seal. So I now have an essentially all new fuel delivery system and am familiar with all of the working components. Well worth the expense and time for the peace of mind I now have. GOOD LUCK!
 

cooper999

Member II
Thanks, Navman.

An update: I went to crank the motor yesterday evening, and it wouldn't turn. Had to bleed to be able to start. This speaks to Craig and Christian opining that there may be air in the lines.

My mate and I had to torque the hell out of the spin-off racor filter to get it to detach from the assembly (220 series). I wonder if we did some damage that introduced air into the system.

After I bled yesterday and got her fired up, tried an in-gear test in the slip. Lo and behold, she stalled eventually after about 60-75% throttle in forward. Hmm.

I need to check again to see if I need to bleed to start. If so, air would be the culprit.

I will update afterward. Thanks as always for everyone's suggestions and help.

I had the same problems and the cause turned out to be many "little" things. I just could not get the air out of the system. While trying to troubleshoot, I bumped the fuel line going to the lift pump and I saw fuel squirt out. Old line. Replaced the line and still wouldn't run right. I always bleed the injectors after doing fuel related repairs. Then checked the fuel line from the tank to the fuel pump. It was a copper line. The pick up tube was clear but was not getting full flow, replaced the line with a flexible one rated for marine diesel. Still not good. Replaced the fuel pump as it seemed to be original. Ok, now getting good flow on the other side of the pump going to the primary filter. Now not able to get all of the air out of the bowl. Tried re-seating the filter and even put another one on with no change, bypassed the primary and went straight to the secondary. Seemed to work better but not great. Then people on this post said they use their bleeder knob near the lift pump to bleed it. Turned out my knurled bleeder knob had been broken off by a P.O. Replaced that and BAM! All was good. I had previously cut access ports into my fuel tank so I knew that the fuel was clean, so I ran it for the balance of the season without the primary filter. Over the winter I ordered another upgraded primary Racor housing and installed it. All is working fine now. So ultimately I ended up replacing ALL of the fuel lines, fuel pump (from auto parts store) bleeder valve, and primary filter housing. The Racor filter housing was a little pricey but was worth it as the old one had a slight ding in the threads which is why it would not completely seal. So I now have an essentially all new fuel delivery system and am familiar with all of the working components. Well worth the expense and time for the peace of mind I now have. GOOD LUCK!
 

cooper999

Member II
Assuming it is an issue with the Racor housing, does anyone have a suggestions as to a replacement fuel/water separator system for a Racor 220? I have limited space to install something, so comparable size would be preferred in any candidate.

Thanks-
 

Emerald

Moderator
Assuming it is an issue with the Racor housing, does anyone have a suggestions as to a replacement fuel/water separator system for a Racor 220? I have limited space to install something, so comparable size would be preferred in any candidate.

Thanks-

Have a friend who had I believe the same Racor unit. It has a nylon plug in it. The plug cracked and created an elusive air leak like you describe. His problems were all solved with a replacement plug, which he found in metal instead of nylon.
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Starter won't tuirn engine?

Be careful when the starter won't turn the engine, even though the battery is ok. The cause could be unburnt fuel in the cylinders causing hydraulic lock. I have had to remove a couple injectors to clear this problem, which leads to more bleeding, etc. I didn't think of it at the time, but using the de-compression lever may serve the same purpose, helping to clear out liquid fuel.

When you do a lot of cranking, the water lift muffler can get loaded with sea water. Mostly what happens is that when the engine does start, the water gushing out continuously is very noisy compared to the usual dribble and gush action. That's when you know it is time to drain the muffler.

I also try to remember to tighten all the clamps on the lines in the system every season. Good point about the plastic bleed screw on the Racor. I replaced mine with brass a few years ago. I have to say, the bleed screw doesn't really do much on my Racor. I usually bleed at the secondary filter, which is even harder to get at, then the bleed screw and and at the injectors.
 

cooper999

Member II
Sorry for the mischaracterization-the starter did turn the motor, but it wouldn't crank due to needing a bleeding. Point taken, though-I will keep this in mind should the started not turn over the motor.

Be careful when the starter won't turn the engine, even though the battery is ok. The cause could be unburnt fuel in the cylinders causing hydraulic lock. I have had to remove a couple injectors to clear this problem, which leads to more bleeding, etc. I didn't think of it at the time, but using the de-compression lever may serve the same purpose, helping to clear out liquid fuel.

When you do a lot of cranking, the water lift muffler can get loaded with sea water. Mostly what happens is that when the engine does start, the water gushing out continuously is very noisy compared to the usual dribble and gush action. That's when you know it is time to drain the muffler.

I also try to remember to tighten all the clamps on the lines in the system every season. Good point about the plastic bleed screw on the Racor. I replaced mine with brass a few years ago. I have to say, the bleed screw doesn't really do much on my Racor. I usually bleed at the secondary filter, which is even harder to get at, then the bleed screw and and at the injectors.
 

Baslin

Member III
I would remove the fuel pickup tube and check to see if it is free of debris and gunk...It sounds to me like you have a fuel delivery issue rather than air in the lines. When the motor tries to increase RPM's under load, it sounds like its starving for fuel.
 

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
Or, as Navman mentioned, a partially opened bleeder valve on the injector pump could have the same effect. Could be allowing enough fuel to the engine during idle, but bypassing too much fuel to allow high RPM settings.
 

cooper999

Member II
Curiosity got the best of me (the good, less humid weather helped) and I left work early to head to the boat. Inspected the pickup tube-clean as a whistle. Looking through the fuel gauge port, and there is a little crud in the tank, but I could see the bottom and it didn't look like anything too awful.

Started the motor up again, and it runs fine in neutral-can rev to full throttle with no noticeable dropoff in revs. However, in both forward and reverse, after about 20-30 seconds at half to 2/3 throttle, it stalls.

I looked around for any obvious opportunities for air intrusion into the lines/filters. Not seeing any. The only thing I noticed today is that the fuel line connecting to the tank return may have gotten slightly nudged when we were trying to get the spinoff racor off, but I wonder if sense this is past the point where vacuum would be taking fuel to the injectors if that's even a potential cause for air intrusion. Regardless, it is still connected, but I will adjust and retighten the clamp.

The water is turbid in the harbor here, so I can't see below the boat. Could I have something fouled around the prop? I think this is a remote possibility since the motor will run when in gear and at nearly full throttle for enough time for me to doubt that something external is bogging it down.

This is a head scratcher. For me at least.

[edit: could this be a low transmission fluid issue? I'm not at the boat now to be able to check.]
 
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cooper999

Member II
Update: I had the yard mechanic come and take a look to see what could explain the motor cutting out while in gear. They seem to think that something might be wrapped around the prop and that the shaft is possibly bent (presumably they rotated the shaft where it meets the engine, I know they didn't dive to have a look at the exterior).

I think I'm going to get a second opinion. It doesn't make sense to me that the motor will still run fine, at nearly full throttle, in gear in both forward and reverse before eventually dying after about 30-45 seconds if there's something impeding the prop. I'm not noticing any obvious signs of a bent prop shaft, which I assume would make the motor buckle much more than it usually does. It seems that if something were wrapped around the prop/shaft, the motor would die much sooner and wouldn't be able to get up to high RPMs in gear. I also swear that it didn't appear that the electric fuel pump (I have bypassed the mechanical pump at the manufacturer's recommendation) wasn't pulling as strong as it usually did when I went to bleed after the problem first showed up.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Paging Mr. Occam, to any white lobby phone

It runs fine for a while. Then it quits. Hmmm....

I vote for the simple answer: air slowly leaking into the fuel system. I once had a similar problem, solved (while on vacation) by re-routing a fuel line to bypass the old Racor filter and use only the spin-on filter for the remainder of the season. We never found any obvious leak in that Racor, but nonetheless there was one. And no fuel ever leaked out when vacuum was released when the engine was off.

Those old Racor filter assemblies have two "O" ring places for an air leak to occur, plus several plugs and other parts of the cast housing.

Note that I put on a current model Racor. And, it probably would have been better to have spent some additional $ and put on the 500 series filter, with far fewer places for an air leak and much cheaper filter replacements. But that's another story.
:rolleyes:

Cheers,
Loren
 
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cooper999

Member II
Thanks for the reply-I'm inclined to agree with you, Loren and Occam. I would think that if the prop and/or shaft were truly fouled, I would notice a lot more vibration a) in gear than in neutral vs. in gear and b) than I had previously. Neither is the case (which isn't to say the shaft isn't slightly bent, but if it is, that's how we inherited the boat).

I'll update once I truly get to the bottom of this.

It runs fine for a while. Then it quits. Hmmm....

I vote for the simple answer: air slowly leaking into the fuel system. I once had a similar problem, solved (while on vacation) by re-routing a fuel line to bypass the old Racor filter and use only the spin-on filter for the remainder of the season. We never found any obvious leak in that Racor, but nonetheless there was one. And no fuel ever leaked out when vacuum was released when the engine was off.

Those old Racor filter assemblies have two "O" ring places for an air leak to occur, plus several plugs and other parts of the cast housing.

Note that I put on a current model Racor. And, it probably would have been better to have spent some additional $ and put on the 500 series filter, with far fewer places for an air leak and much cheaper filter replacements. But that's another story.
:rolleyes:

Cheers,
Loren
 
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