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e29 Standing Rigging replacement

Thursty30

Member II
Now that the motor is out and a lot of the "messy" work is finally finished, I started the process of just cleaning the boat inside and out this weekend, with good results. Shes cleaned up nicer than I had expected so far. Got some tips on cleaning the painted hull and removing water line stains from some of my yard neighbors and the desire to re-paint has left (unless I have to replace chain plates sooner than expected and convert to external)...

Unfortunately though, I noticed some things on the standing rigging that worry me enough to attack it immediately, like before put a sail up. This is a job I had originally intended to save until the end of this season, mostly because I wasn't going to do the rigging with out the chain plates which is a big undertaking on my boat. I am going to cut away the fiberglass around the welds on the chain plates this weekend, and make a decision whether or not it bears replacing. If it does, I am leaning towards the exterior chain plate mod a few people have done on this site, but I have not decided that for certain.

Who do I see about making the new chain plates if I need them? I would like to get prices before I start hacking away.

The plan for the rigging is to duplicate exactly what is there (1x19, 7/32' SS) with swaged upper fittings and sta-lok lowers so I can do it my self in the yard. Have not decided if I will drop the mast for this, or wait until I launch and do it on the water (don't feel comfortable going aloft in my cradle) 1 shroud at a time, backing up the stays with the halyard. probably depends on which way I go with the chain plates.

Has any one had a rigger advise them to install anything different than what is existing when replacing the shrouds/stays?

I was so close. In my mind I basically had only to re-route scuppers and re-bed port lights while I waited for the motor shop and the yard to sand the bottom...:crying:
 

G Kiba

Sustaining Member
What makes you think you have a problem with the chain plates? My E27 is 44 years old this year. Chain plates are still holding the mast up last I checked. I check for leaks every few years and reseal if needed. And yes, there are a few signs of corrosion here and there (after 44 years what would you expect?) Cut the glass back? What good will that do? Might even cause more harm.

Is the real question "How long do you expect these fine boats to be around"? Or maybe, how much time and money you want to put into it and not sail? Or how long do you expect to own it (let alone, how many years you will have the physical ability to keep sailing it?)

External chain plates really take away the look of the 27s and 29s. I think I read that one owner that did add them regretted it in the end and questioned whether it was even necessary. Pretty sure if/when/or ever I am faced with chain plate issues - it's time for another boat. Also pretty sure that the other E27/29 problem of mast dimpling at the spreaders is because of too much tension applied to the rig . My E27 does not show any sign of this problem as well.

I truly believe that sometimes we are our own worst enemy and that we often worry ourselves into impractical situations including fixing problems that don't exist.
 

Thursty30

Member II
I don't think I can argue with any of your sentiments, in fact I have to admit that I am habitually guilty of worrying my self into impractical situations and fixing problems that don't exist. This is amplified by the fact that this is my first boat, so everything is new to me. Just like car wrecks, we (I, humans) subconsciously fixate on the worst possible scenarios. So, what makes me think that I have a problem is very likely the nightmares of being dismasted the first time I raise the sails. The first step is admitting it right?

All that said, I think a certain amount of questioning is warranted purely considering the age of the boat, and my intentions with it. How long I plan to have the boat? Probably irrelevant if I plan to go off-shore with it in the next 1-2 years. As for the longevity of my physical ability to sail it, I am only 28, so with any amount of luck I will out last her.

I agree to a degree with the aesthetic argument, but there are a couple examples on this site of boats that turned out lovely, and owners who were happy. In any case, the objective for my build is function over form. Personally, I am willing to accept some aesthetic sacrifice for confidence in critical components at sea.

So I can re-phrase, but with the same objective. I don't see how cutting away small sections of glass to expose the welds would be problematic. Structural fiberglass repairs are made all the time, if the chain plates are in good shape that is essentially what I would be dealing with.

What is gained is invaluable, peace of mind. I am very open to suggestions on ways to confirm the structural integrity of the chain plates with out hacking away at the boat. I don't think I can, in good conscience, spend the time and money preparing the boat for a long voyage with out gaining a certain level of comfort/confidence in a component as critical as the chain plates.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
You need a professional rigger. Analysis of stainless steel is difficult, their experience serves to replace impractical test equipment.

Personally, I would never make my own rigging, and I don't even feel competent to inspect it.
 

Thursty30

Member II
You need a professional rigger. Analysis of stainless steel is difficult, their experience serves to replace impractical test equipment.

Personally, I would never make my own rigging, and I don't even feel competent to inspect it.

I believe there is a rigger at my yard, I'll see if I can get him to look at it this weekend. What will he be able to inspect that I can't? I understand the experience part of making a determination on the quality of the exposed SS, but the weld is buried under fiberglass. Isn't that the critical part?
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
The problem with the embedded chainplates is that they cannot be inspected non-destructively. Even the area where they pass through the deck cannot be observed without chopping away the deck. A rigger is only going to say "they're old - replace them."

I did a google search for titanium chainplates and found a couple of places that make them. I haven't done so yet, but plan to steal the drawings posted here and submit them for quotation. Saturday, I was browsing in a local chandlery and saw that they have a couple of standard-pattern chainplates in stock. I believe ones with a bit of hook-shape, to reach over the toe rail were $97 each. So that's an off-the-shelf option. I favor leaving the embedded section of the old chainplate in place and drilling through it as a sort of mega-backing plate, taking advantage of the existing hull reinforcement in that area. I'm not sure how the off-the-shelf chainplates would match up with that. I suppose that job could be done afloat, but it might be less complicated with the rig down. Will also require trimming and sealing the hull-deck joint flange and modifying the rub-rail.

I didn't have any particular problem replacing the forestay with the rig up. Only seven more to go...

Oh wait... I took a picture of those chainplates in the store, to remind myself to think about it:
IMG_1780.jpg
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Even buried, a rigger can judge the overall situation of the chainplates better than I could. Telltale signs and so on. General experience and so on. We don't have to take their advice.

I don't know the age or condition of your boat, or what your cruising plans are (people often change boats as plans get ambitious; it's rarely your first boat).

What I do is put off big jobs as long as possible. I find I then start worrying about something new, and the old worry gets recategorized.

All the original stuff on our boats is past its planned lifetime. So am I. I still have the original chainplates, so I no longer windsurf through the breakers, that's all.
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Stolen from CF, but perhaps timely: Who needs chainplates when you have... chain?
IMG_1995.JPG

Um... that was supposed to be a joke. I think.
 

paul culver

Member III
You asked:

Has any one had a rigger advise them to install anything different than what is existing when replacing the shrouds/stays?

Yes. A rigger advised me that the turnbuckles on my E29 had been recalled about 20 years ago. Replaced them along with the shrouds and stays.

Paul
E29 "Bear"
 

G Kiba

Sustaining Member
Toddster,
I'll bet there,s some regret there. Ugly! Like I said before, sometimes another boat is the right decision.
 

bolbmw

Member III
Toddster,
I'll bet there,s some regret there. Ugly! Like I said before, sometimes another boat is the right decision.

Bernard Moitessier spoke favorable of using chain to lengthen stays that had stretched or broken. In fact he used thimbles and clamps instead of swages, and when his rigging had stretched, he would adjust the thimble/clamp onto a fresh part of the wire, and lengthen with chain.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=M_...q=Bernard Moitessier standing rigging&f=false
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Offshore, I carry a length of chain and half a dozen big wire rope U-bolt clips for emergency rig repairs.

But I do think that chain-through-the-bulwarks looks goofy, even if it does work....
 

Thursty30

Member II
It is decided.

I think it looks cool. Certainly seems more functional from a maintenance/replacement standpoint. I don't think it would work on my boat though.

I have made some decisions, it's contrary to the popular opinion in this thread. I appreciate all of you who tried to talk me out of it, but don't expect me to come back and admit defeat or regret. :cool: I even got word my new sails are shipping this week, and I still feel like it is worth the extra time/money, So I'm not going to ignore my instincts.

I bought a multi master today, and Saturday I am going to hack start hacking away. I will make a decision about whether to re-design w/ exterior or replicate existing once I get a little more intimate with the project. Either way, they're gone.

I am going to get the yard to drop my mast, I want to re-wire it and replace the lights with LED any ways. I can get a good look at the spreaders, mast head and potentially exchange sheaves for all rope halyards, and most importantly - ship my shrouds/stays off to a rigger for replacement at one fell swoop.
 

bigd14

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Couple thoughts:

1. I had a professional rigger (Brion Toss) check my work when I replaced the chainplates. He recommended upsizing some of the standing rigging based on his calculations, which I did. He also recommended if I were doing it over that the chainplates be a couple inches shorter to limit flex, but thought they were fine the way they were. http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...tanding-rigging-replacement-who-has-done-this

2. Since my new chainplates were different height and location, I could not easily calculate the rigging length. So I used Hayn Hi-Mod fittings on all the lower terminals of the new rigging (except for the forestay and backstay where the measurements did not change), and field installed them with the rig standing in the lift. The Hi-Mods are super easy to use, and reusable cones if you have to re-do them. These came highly rated and I was not disappointed. They have been perfectly sound for the last 6+ years. http://hayn.com/marine/rigging/himod.html
 
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