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1982 E-38 Genoa size question

Dferr

Member II
Hi all!

I haven't been here in a while. I still have my Ericson 38, Guinness.

I'm putting a new Genoa sail on this year. Last year I put on what I believe was the original sail that came with the boat when I bought it, about 10 years ago.
I always used the smaller sail that I had, I think it is a 110 or smaller, but I really like this bigger sail. I believe it is a 150, it's a pretty tired sail, but really mad the boat sail much better!
I was told by someone the E-38 was designed to carry a 150 sail. So I'm thinking about having a new 150 made.

Does anyone use a 135 or 140 on their E-38 and think this would be better choice?

Just would like some opinion.

Thanks,
Don
 

ddoles

Member III
I just replaced the genoa on my E38-200 last year. When I bought the boat a few years ago it came with a 150. After consulting with a sail maker I went with a 130. The E38 will certainly sail well with a 150 in the right conditions, but the choice largely rests on the question of where you sail and what are your objectives. If you are racing in typically light air conditions, e.g. the Chesapeake, a 150 would make sense. I think this was the story with the previous owner. For me, I don't race, often sail single handed and where I sail on NY Harbor frequently see apparent winds at 15 kts+. With the larger sail, I found I was often sailing with the genoa partially furled, which degrades performance and involves work. Any benefit in lighter air (below 10kts) really didn't matter for me. If it gets too light, I use the iron genny. In my circumstance the 130, with a slightly elevated clew for better visibility, serves me well. Its easier to handle, gives me more versatility in my typical wind conditions and the light air performance penalty for me is OK. Unless you're sailing where the wind is regularly over 20 kts, I would think a 110 would be undersized.

Of course this is just the tip of the iceberg in sail purchasing. You will also need to consider sail construction, materials, brands, etc.... But I'll leave that alone.

Dave
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Don,

I think the trend for cruising (not racing) sailors is to smaller headsails than a 150, which is a light-air sail.

A modern foam-luff 130 or so is more versatile, and can be furled small when it blows 20 knots.

I chose a 120, high clew, and feel I lose very little. I seriously considered a non-overlapping jib.

A new 120 will sail the boat faster than an old bag of a 150 anyhow.

Yes, they say--but what about when the wind dies? With my 150 drifter, I'll pass you standing still!

When the wind dies, I turn on the engine. I don't enjoy cruising in slop at 2 knots.

Since we reef the mainsail early on Ericsons, we can't carry a big headsail very long anyhow.

Opinions, of course. But I think the trend is smaller.
 

e38 owner

Member III
I have both a 155 and a 135 for the boat.
I use the 135 unless we are racing then i use the 155.
I think when my 135 wears out I will get another one but instead of Dacron might go with a lighter but stronger sail. search for a sail with the largest wind range possible. my current 135 is fine from 6-30
I furl a little when the wind is over 22 ish. Don't have a foam and probably would not get one. It all depends on where you sail. Are you stuck at sea when the wind comes up, Do you like to drift, etc, If you are in the wind range for a 155 you will sail about 1/2 knot faster. My 155 is a great sail made of kevlar. Range 4-18. have a 155 drifter wind range 0-8
when reaching in the light stuff I could uses a tad more sail than the 135 but I can sit at the wheel and sail with the 135. 155 is a little big if the wind comes up.
I also think if not enough wind for the 135 turn on the engine
We sail in a place were in the morning to early afternoon wind is 0-8. late afternoon can be 0-30
The wind comes up fast. It is a lake so the sea state is not a big issue.
Can't furl a 155 small enough to be useable in over 20.
I often sail with just 135 headsail. Can still sail circles around most of the boats around with their 155 and full mail
 
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frick

Member III
130 is my preferred genny

I sail a E29 on the Great South Bay of Long Island NY.

I have found that given the wind we always have a 130 Genoa is a perfect size for daily use.... we have normal 10 to 15 SW winds in the Afternoons... anything bigger than the 130 and I rail down on a point which slows down my boat. on my e29... it is that 15 to 17 degree of heal that yields the longest water line and the fasted speeds.

Rick+
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Sail Size

Newer sail materials appear to be more efficient at maintaining shape. This drives up the price a bit, but there is a measurable return on your $.
As repetitiously stated here by me in the recent past, our still-like-new 95% composite North jib with the all-important vertical battens gives it drive like a (approx.) 110 jib.

If going with a measured 110 or 120 nowadays I would specify the same construction and batten layout. Less winching with the smaller overlap and very adequate drive to weather and reaching. Probably some loss of speed DDW, but to me a part of a knot is a small price to pay for upwind speed and efficiency. Besides, our hulls - whether by King, Holland, or those odd Olson's, are intrinsically very-how-drag and all-around fast shapes.

Sometimes it's easy to start to believe, as the owners of the party barge sailboats do, that all these boats must sail the same because they all have masts and are pointy-er on one end....... :rolleyes:
No Way.

Your Ericson was designed from "the outside in and not the other way 'round" and has more inherent speed under sail than the majority of the hulls designed for "GDL" (gracious dockside living).

This efficient hull and rig design can save you a few sail purchase $$, IMHO.

Sidebar: As for getting the last nano-knot out of the boat when "racing", it is sometimes easy to forget that if racing handicap, you are assigned a rating number based on the largest sail in your (racing) inventory, and that the calculation takes into account the loss of potential speed with a small(er) headsail.
Further, if you race One Design, by definition all of the class competitors can agree to the same inventory. In many areas, you could put to gather a OD class of E-38's and have the fairest racing of all.... and the most fun. No calculations -- it's just WYSIWYG. (In my area, three boats can enter as a OD class and race for a single trophy, for instance. Five is the usual minimum number for two trophies.)
 

Thursty30

Member II
I sail a E29 on the Great South Bay of Long Island NY.

I have found that given the wind we always have a 130 Genoa is a perfect size for daily use.... we have normal 10 to 15 SW winds in the Afternoons... anything bigger than the 130 and I rail down on a point which slows down my boat. on my e29... it is that 15 to 17 degree of heal that yields the longest water line and the fasted speeds.

Rick+

Did you have your 130 cut to elevate the clew? I just ordered a new 130 for my E-29 from Mack, I didn't think about it at the time of order, but I am still finalizing measurements and options so can make the change.

I don't like a deck sweeper, but I have never sailed this boat so I deferred to the sail maker for most options. Interested in anecdotal evidence for or against.

Thanks,

EDIT: Sorry for hijacking the thread. It's relatively relevant though, right?
 
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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Sailmakers usually recommend a high clew for cruising. The visibility is much better, and the sail furls much better, the placement of the jib sheet car is more forgiving.

They will also put a pennant on a decksweeper, which can raise the tack up over the pulpit rails. Improves visibilty but looks all wrong to my eye.

I went with a high clew on my 120 because I want to be able to reef the jib down to 10 percent.

In fact, I love the way decksweepers look and I am used to sailing to windward just about blind. Craning and leaning and listening to all the warnings from guests ("do you see that schooner 100 feet ahead on starboard tack?") was part of the fun. And a close-hauled decksweeper seen from the helm is a thing of beauty.

Oliver at UK Sails had to hold me down and make me sign the high-clew papers.

I am feeling better now and the guests are too.
 
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e38 owner

Member III
I am a deck sweeper fan
I agree not having to foot the jib is nice. I like the shape of the sail goding to windward, The block can be farther forward and if you get in a crazy won't furl situation the clew is not at head height
 
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e38 owner

Member III
For an all round sail I would probably stick with a 135
In addition I purchased a used 155 a few years back I never use it because the only time I use a 155 is to race and it is not good enough for that. It is in very good shape and I would like to get it out of my garage.
It is 7-8 oz high clew fits an Ericson 38
pm for details
$700
 

u079721

Contributing Partner
When it came time for a new Genny we also went with a high clew 130, and never regretted it. My recollection of the 38 is that I was overpowered and in need of a reef more often than I was underpowered and wished I had more sail up. (But then I'm a cruiser, not a racer.)
 

Jason G

Member II
On my e34-2 I have a high cut 95, a 120 where the clew is about even with the boom, and a 150. I never use the 150 and should just sell the thing. I often fly just the headsail in 15kts or less and the boat does quite well. When I can have 4 good size people sit on the rail the boat will carry the full 120 and main on a broad reach and really move out. If I didn't have the extra body weight I'd have to reduce sail or deal with a lot of weather helm. 90% of my sailing is single or short hand sailing and often with inexperienced crew so a smaller sail is desirable. I prefer the 120 and when I order a new one it will also be a 120 but a radial cut one. The 120 is much more versatile through a broader wind angle too. It seems to me that sail shape has more to so with boat speed than sail area unless you're only going down wind. I've always had problems shaping a large sail.

-Jason
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Jason,

I'm puzzled by your statement that you need 4 crew on the rail to sail your E34-2 with a 120 headsail and mainsail in reasonable winds, and therefore sail often with just a headsail. You mention that you have too much weatherhelm if singlehanding in those conditions. Although I haven't sailed on an E34-2, it should be able to handle reasonable winds (up to about 20 knots) with both sails up, even when singlehanding, perhaps with a single reef when the wind hits about 18 knots or so. I'm wondering if your rig tune might need attention to decrease that weather helm. Just a thought....and maybe some E34-2 owners might chime in with their experiences to provide some explanation.

Frank
 

Bob Robertson

Member III
Roller Furling 150

We bought our boat new in 88. The first genoa we had was a roller furling 135. About 10 years ago I replaced that with a roller furling 150 made by North Sails.

Our boat is on Lake Superior, so we get a wide variety of wind speeds (0 to 40 knots) and it can change at anytime.

We really like the 150. It furls relatively easily and the sail shape is very good at all positions.

We'd definitely get a 150 again.

It's getting close to launch time for us and we can't wait to get the boat in the water.

Enjoy!
Bob
 

Jason G

Member II
Sorry for the confusion Frank, what I was intending to convey was the fact that these late 80s Erickson's move so well under headsail alone that I often purely for simplicity sail with just the 120 Genoa. It could also have something to do with trying to entertain the girlfriend, keep the boat from excessive heel because the girlfriend doesn't like it, and not being in a hurry. I've noticed a pretty consistent + 1kt improvrmet in speed when flying both sails.

When trying to maximize speed as soon as the rudder starts to make a visible or audible turbulence in the wake of the boat or I'm consistantly heeling beyond 20 deg I'll either flatten or reduce sail area or change course. If I've got enough people to weight the rail I can carry more sail area longer and the boat really moves out well.

A good main sail along with a well shaped 120 that's not blown out is a prefect size for 90% of the sailing I've done in Puget Sound. And the Boom height clew on the 120 seems easier to trim across more points of sail than my low cut 150.

Id say a 120/130 size sail is more versatile than a larger one.

Everyone that has taken the helm of my e34-2 says it's a wonderful sailing boat.


-Jason
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Jason, how old is your mainsail?

A boat should sail without excessive heel with the standard sail plan up to the point of reefing, somewhere at 16-18 knots.

The traveler will be well down at that point and the main may be backwinded some, which is fine.

I ask because a mainsail that has lost its shape through age knocks you right over on your side and causes big weather helm when going to weather.
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Jason,

Thanks for your reply and clarification. It sounds as if you are enjoying your boat, and I fully agree that it's important to keep the girlfriend happy! ☺️
Frank
 

Jason G

Member II
I have a brand new North radial cut 2+2 batten with two reefs and a loose foot. It's a wonderful sail and made a big difference in boat performance. I go forward instead of sideways now ��

You're absolutely correct Christian, when the wind pipes up the main gets flattened and then the traveler is pulled to the leeward side. My single hand reefing technique is to fall off a bit and stand the boat up, vang off, sheet out the main, move to the mast and use the topping lift to elevate the end of the boom, return to the cockpit, drop the main halyard, go back to the mast and hook the tack wedding ring cringle onto the gooseneck hook, pull in the reefing line for the clew and engage the jammer at the goose neck, return to the cock pit and raise the halyard, pull a bit more on the clew reefing line, main sheet in, adjust the vang, Steer back on course and trim the sails. Takes about 2 min I'm guessing.

I made a trip from Seattle to SF on a boat with the reefing and halyard winches at the mast and boom. I much preferred that set up. One trip forward to adjust sailsl then back to the cockpit to trim. Even in gale force winds crossing the Mendocino ridge I was comfortable clipped in working at the mast.

Getting ready to raise all the sails after motoring 6 hrs out of Neaha bay onto the pacific.
image.jpg


-Jason
 
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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Thanks, I get it now. Our boats are a tad tender compared to barges, which I think speaks to their all around talents.

Regarding reef procedures, I'm trying out downhaul lines to the reef cringles (mainly because the previous owner installed extra clutches).

I too preferred, or was at least used to, doing all the reefing at the mast. And I certainly don;t mind hopping up there to attach a dogbone.

I was out yesterday in 25-30 knots, double reef, scrap of jib. Yes, with the downhaul system I was able to reef without leaving the cockpit.

But the reef downhauls (#1 and #2) mean more lines to tangle or to restrict the hoist, and slack has to be taken up when lowering, too.

You wind up standing in the cockpit pulling and clutching and cranking like a puppet master, which is not all that convenient with the boat throwing you around.

And if there is a foul at the mast, you have to go there anyhow. And since I horse the main halyard up, and then have to clear the pile of halyard to run through the turning blocks back to the cockpit, I am up there anyhow at least once.

So, all in all, I don't really get full cockpit control as an improvement even, for singlehanders. Adn with a crew, who wants them all standing in the same place?

I'll try to get used to it, since I rigged it. Sometimes that takes time. First impression: more troubel than it's worth.

[Oh dear. Don't mean to get off topic of genoa sizes. Now back to subject of thread]
 
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