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Help needed....bilge/plumbing questions (and could use a diagram?)

jacksonkev

Member III
Hi all,

I have a newish to me 1980 E30+. I bought her a few years ago and we've had drought conditions in California since. This year, there have been some huge storms and my bilge/pump setup is being tested. (sidenote-I recently had hand surgery and it makes it infinitely harder (if not impossible) to crawl around into tight spaces such as the infamous lazarette of the E30+). Normally, I run the bilge pump and a couple cups of water may or may not come out and I check the bilge in the center of the cabin floor and it's always bone dry. Today, I went down to check on her after the most recent deluge and found the bilge about 1/2 full about 2 inches above the top of the keel bolts. I flipped on the manual on/off bilge pump (located aft of the sink/deck drain/icebox/raw water thru hulls) and about half of the water in the bilge pumped out and it stopped there. The pump runs but no more water comes out. In my 4-6 trips from the cabin to the stern to check for water draining, I noticed that the cockpit drains were full of water just above the cockpit floor (said another way, I could see there was water in there but only to the top of the drains). I then noticed that the sink had a ring of mucky residue to about the level of the cockpit floor. At this point, I sat in the cockpit eating my peanut butter and jelly sandwich and started to think about all of the odd possibilities and evidence that led to this going on in my bilge and drains. I then went down in the cabin and sponge bailed out the bilge into a bucket (about 7 gallons..fun). Now, let me preface by saying I think Bruce King is one of the better boat designers out there but I honestly have no idea how or why the plumbing on this boat is so complex. I owned an E29 for years and loved it's simplicity. It had a huge bilge with a bilge pump located in said bilge and it pumped out water as it came in. The sink was well above the waterline and the water ran out it's own thru hull. The icebox drained into the bilge. Simple. Now, for a few questions...

1. Since I can't crawl around or use tools very easily (hand surgery), does anyone have a good plumbing/bilge diagram? There isn't one in the docs section of this site and I can't find one on the interwebs. I'd like to see a visual of how the hell this boat was designed to pump out or passively drain rain water.

2. Does anyone have firsthand knowledge of the standard issue bilge/plumbing system on the E30+ and have any insight on upgrades or where to look to troubleshoot or unclog hoses, strainers? I honestly don't know if the bilge under the dinette is the sole bilge or is there another behind the engine?

3. Does anyone else here think having the cockpit drain connected to the sink drain which is connected to a sink that is below the cockpit floor is a major design flaw if not a serious safety issue? Does anyone have a workaround that they feel comfortable about?

4. I'll take any firsthand accounts or advice about the bilge/drains/plumbing....I'm all ears.

Thanks in advance!

Grumpy One Handed Wet Winter Sailor
 

bigd14

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
See this thread: http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?14448-E30-TAFG-Structure&highlight= for a photo of what lies beneath. This is a slightly later model so it may not be exactly the same as yours. The automatic bilge pump is located in the compartment immediately aft of the mast. There is also a bilge pump in the shower sump in the head. And the cockpit manual pump goes to the middle bilge compartment. As others have pointed out a lot of water gets trapped in the TAFG structure. It seems that the bilge pump location leaves a lot of water in the aft sections of the bilge. I have yet to figure out a solution for this. I am thinking of a remotely mounted bilge pump with a shallow box strainer in the aft-most TAFG section if I can make it work, with the automatic bilge pump remaining where it is.

As for the rest of the plumbing, I think its a bad system to have the cockpit drain and the sink drain teed. If the thru hull is closed the sink will overflow if it rains in the cockpit. I am changing that all around (blog post coming soon).

Good luck and let us know what you decide.

Oh and the collection area around the shaft seal seems to drain through the engine drip tray through a tube to a hidden compartment in the TAFG structure underneath the engine. I think this is where I am going to try to add a bilge hose pickup.
 
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Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Sorry to hear about the hand surgery, and the resulting challenges in dealing with your boat. These E30+ are such a fun boat to sail, but we also periodically have issues and challenges to solve on our 1984 E30+.

I don't like the fact that the port cockpit drain is tied into the same thru hull/seacock as the kitchen sink, but I have not had a problem with it as long as the seacock is open so that the cockpit drain can drain and not fill up the sink. I always leave this seacock and the seacock under the quarter berth that drains the starboard cockpit drain both open when I leave the boat. All others are closed. Also check the hose connection right below the sink, as ours was a plastic one which eventually cracked. I replaced it with a good quality metal fitting so it's secure--the bottom of the sink is below the water level, so it could sink the boat if that hose ever came off the sink.

Regarding the bilge problem, the TAFG does impede the flow of water into the bilge so even after emptying the bilge, the boat heeling under sail will make the water flow in different directions and end up in strange places. In our boat, I relocated the bilge pick up screen from the first of the three square bilge openings--I put it right below into the lowest part of the hull. There is an opening (covered by a thin laminate cover) in the locker just to port of the bilge openings, and I could easily reach under there to re-route the hose for the bilge pump to place the pickup in the lowest part of the hull. It was an easy and worthwhile change.

I'm puzzled about where the water was coming into your boat in the recent heavy rains. Living in BC, we also get lots of rain during the winter, but the bilge stays dry. Have you explored that? Are the ports/windows, hatches dry? No leaks from water tanks, the head, etc.? I once had a strange leak from the anchor locker underneath the cushions at the bow of the Vberth, along the port side and ending in a puddle in the head--took me some real detective work to figure that one out, but after re-bedding the anchor locker it was solved.

We have owned our E30+ for over ten years, and I'm sure I've crawled around in every inch of her at some time or other, so if you have other questions about where things are located or routed, ask away and I may be able to help.

Keep us posted on how this goes for you.

Frank
 
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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Water and Frustration

Getting that last half inch of water out of each bilge division is tedious. I have used a $1.99 turkey baster for many years. Every significant rain storm introduces about two quarts of clear fresh cold rainwater to our bilge, down the inside of our keel-stepped spar.:0

Does your boat have the factory Par-Jabsco model 3702 pump with a float switch? Note that the exact model # has likely changed some from the 80's, but the pump works and looks pretty much the same.

(If a PO has replaced it with a cheapie Rule centrifugal pump, those can back-flood by syphoning and are unreliable on their best day. Their flow rate is nowhere near the advertised specs, either.)

Further, if the bilge hose run is original, leading to an ancient/OEM plastic thru-hull, it's past time to replace with new.

Of course this will be a lot easier (altho still arduous) when your hand heals.
(Small world, I sold my prior boat to a hand surgeon; his comments about how he repaired tiny vessels and nerves was interesting. It's a very specialized type of surgery.)

Take care,
Loren

ps: photos will help, and note that you can hold your digi camera or smart phone inside of places (after pushing a small trouble light into the area first) and take pix. Edit the result and share 'em with us. I use this technique for blind areas under inside structures and inside the stern compartment.
 
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supersailor

Contributing Partner
Loren,

I have been using a large car washing sponge. It is faster than the baster (my baster never sealed right at the bulb). The minus is that that water is cold on the hand. My winter cover keeps almost all water off the decks but doesn't stop what is coming down the mast. A small umbrella tied to the top of the mast?
 

bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
I have been using a large car washing sponge.

I got one of those pump units that runs off a [cordless] drill. And a couple of feet of tubing.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Water-Source-200-GPH-Drill-Pump-DRP-1/203449537

takes just a minute or so to get the bulk of the water out of the bilge sump and into a bucket, and then clean up the last bits with a sponge.

When I feel ambitious, I can slide the tubing into the limber hole leading under the TAFG, and get the water out from under there, too.
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
Great way! I have a hand pump that uses a small intake hose that I have used for fuel transfers that would work. I bet the vacuum oil pump would work perfectly for this application and have the water all vacuumed up for disposal. Of course, I would probably need to get another one to try this out so the water is not oil contaminated.:egrin:
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I noticed that the cockpit drains were full of water just above the cockpit floor (said another way, I could see there was water in there but only to the top of the drains)

If the seacocks are open, you may have hoses with standing water. This is sometimes the result of drooping crossed hoses arranged to drain to opposite side. I had a boat like that, and used to blow the standing water out with a shop-vac.

----

As for the rain bilge thing, there's gotta be a better way and we in SoCal are like totally inexperienced, dude.

I currently have a huge new sponge in each of two main bilge compartments, along with a small bucket also kept there.

My hands get all wet and cold! What is this, San Francisco?

The problem is that rain bilge solutions require a bucket. Hand pump, sponges, turkey basters, scoops.

A shop vac works well, but it's in the dock box and requires assembly and, really, are you kidding me? I have to go get it and put it back every time there is a quarter-inch in the bilge? This is supposed to be yachting, not Norton in the sewer (if 30, you may not get the reference).

What we need is an automatic bilge pump capable of to actually emptying a bilge.

Why is this so hard?

Is there no science of capillary action to invoke? No auxilliary small tube to clean up after the half-inch hose? No patented solution to an obvious problem?

A failure of the imagination of the entire sailing community?

We have a GPS that tells position within 50 feet a thousand miles frrm nowhere and we have to USE WET SPONGES?

It is raining here, and drought be damned I am stuck varnishing in a garage even though I know I shouldn't be doing it today.
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
I understand that this is especially an issue for boats with a keel stepped mast where rain water runs down the mast into the bilge. However, the original poster specified his boat as an E30+ which is deck stepped, so rain water down the mast is not a source for his water intrusion. It must be something like a leaking port or deck fitting, leaking anchor locker, etc. as he found the water after a significant rain storm. So it's likely not a seawater leak through a seacock or similar.
It might be helpful to hear from him again on any progress in resolving his problem.
Frank
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
How about a small marine utility pump plumbed into the TAFG with a drain overboard and an on-off switch? That would mean an intake hose of about 1/4". Just turn it on to drain the whole thing. Of course, that would mean we have to remember to turn it off!
 

GrandpaSteve

Sustaining Member
rain draining on the hard

So,

When I first bought my boat it was on the hard, freshly hauled after a sea trial. I went and cleaned her up for the first weekend, and of course got the bilge bone dry and sparkling.

I went back a week later and found a few inches of water in the bilge! Ok, so now I know I get water when it rains. No problem - I'll get the bilge pump running and that will keep it dry to a point.

Then the problem is winter rain on the hard. The pump works when the bilge is not frozen, but in that first year I had a big rain with a hard freeze - that situation freezes the automatic switch in the on position and kills the battery (I don't know why the fuse held powering a frozen pump)!

So now I take the fuse out.

My boat had an inoperable Datamarine speed log low and forward, so now what I do is keep that speed log hole plugged during the season, and take the plug out on the hard.

I remove the fuse from the bilge pump and hopefully I will not get water over the sole due to the speed log hole acting as a garboard plug.

I try to visit every month in the winter, but so far no problems with this plan.
 

jacksonkev

Member III
See this thread: http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?14448-E30-TAFG-Structure&highlight= for a photo of what lies beneath. This is a slightly later model so it may not be exactly the same as yours.

Thanks but wow, you're not kidding...my bilge doesn't even resemble yours. I don't have any pics (yet) but I'm attaching a video I took with my one good hand yesterday. FYI-my bilge pump is remotely located deep in the lazarette. I'm more confused now than I was when I started my PB&J.

Speaking of which, what's a TAFG Structure? I googled it and came up dry (pun intended).

My E30+ is a 1980. The first model year. I'm assuming there were some changes. I know some basic differences. My companionway sliding hatch is fiberglass, my spars are white/Kenyon, my boom is lower to the cabin top, etc. Looks like I can add the "TAFG" to the list.[video=youtube_share;UXe_PDI57h4]https://youtu.be/UXe_PDI57h4[/video]
 

jacksonkev

Member III
I'm puzzled about where the water was coming into your boat in the recent heavy rains. Living in BC, we also get lots of rain during the winter, but the bilge stays dry. Have you explored that? Are the ports/windows, hatches dry? No leaks from water tanks, the head, etc.? I once had a strange leak from the anchor locker underneath the cushions at the bow of the Vberth, along the port side and ending in a puddle in the head--took me some real detective work to figure that one out, but after re-bedding the anchor locker it was solved.

Thank you, Frank. I'm a little puzzed by the amount of water in the bilge too. To be honest, the bilge (directly below the dinette...see above video) is always bone dry. So, I almost never run the manual bilge. Is it possible that the boat had water in other lower lying bilge compartments and the last (highest) bilge to fill is the one in the video? Looks like I'll have to find a limber friend willing to do my dirty work of rolling around the hidden parts of the boat to investigate while I'm healing.
 

jacksonkev

Member III
Getting that last half inch of water out of each bilge division is tedious. I have used a $1.99 turkey baster for many years. Every significant rain storm introduces about two quarts of clear fresh cold rainwater to our bilge, down the inside of our keel-stepped spar.:0

Does your have the factory Par-Jabsco model 3702 pump with a float switch? Note that the exact model has changed some from the 80's, but the pump works the same.

(If a PO has replaced it with a cheapie Rule centrifugal pump, those can back-flood by syphoning and are unreliable on their best day. Their flow rate is nowhere near the advertised specs, either.)

Further, if the bilge hose run is original, leading to an ancient/OEM plastic thru-hull, it's past time to replace with new.

Of course this will be a lot easier (altho still arduous) when your hand heals.
(Small world, I sold my prior boat to a hand surgeon; his comments about how he repaired tiny vessels and nerves was interesting. It's a very specialized type of surgery.)

Take care,
Loren

ps: photos will help, and note that you can hold your digi camera or smart phone inside of places (after pushing a small trouble light into the area first) and take pix. Edit the result and share 'em with us. I use this technique for blind areas under inside structures and inside the stern compartment.

Thanks Loren! I'm learning a lot about my boat today!

First, my mast is deck stepped with a wooden post. Yours is keel stepped? Also, I think you may be onto something...I've noticed some evidence of rain/washdown water running down my spar. Worth keeping an eye on.

Also, re:hand surgery. I've never learned so much about the hand until I had surgery. It's a very slow healing part of the body. My greatest take away is be extra careful when handling sharp objects. I had a puncture wound that pierced all the way thru 2 of my metacarpals (palm) leaving a large chunk of glass behind. Had emergency surgery by a top notch hand specialist micro surgeon. I got extremely lucky in that my nerves and tendons were generally intact but suffered a lot of muscle damage. I'm looking at 4-6 months before it's back close to normal.

And you're right about the camera trick...my iPhone has been in many more places in my boat than I. My problem is climbing into the lazarette and using tools. But, by the time the storms are gone, I'll be better equipped to crawl around again!
 

jacksonkev

Member III
I noticed that the cockpit drains were full of water just above the cockpit floor (said another way, I could see there was water in there but only to the top of the drains)

If the seacocks are open, you may have hoses with standing water. This is sometimes the result of drooping crossed hoses arranged to drain to opposite side. I had a boat like that, and used to blow the standing water out with a shop-vac.

----

As for the rain bilge thing, there's gotta be a better way and we in SoCal are like totally inexperienced, dude.

I currently have a huge new sponge in each of two main bilge compartments, along with a small bucket also kept there.

My hands get all wet and cold! What is this, San Francisco?

The problem is that rain bilge solutions require a bucket. Hand pump, sponges, turkey basters, scoops.

A shop vac works well, but it's in the dock box and requires assembly and, really, are you kidding me? I have to go get it and put it back every time there is a quarter-inch in the bilge? This is supposed to be yachting, not Norton in the sewer (if 30, you may not get the reference).

What we need is an automatic bilge pump capable of to actually emptying a bilge.

Why is this so hard?

Is there no science of capillary action to invoke? No auxilliary small tube to clean up after the half-inch hose? No patented solution to an obvious problem?

A failure of the imagination of the entire sailing community?

We have a GPS that tells position within 50 feet a thousand miles frrm nowhere and we have to USE WET SPONGES?

It is raining here, and drought be damned I am stuck varnishing in a garage even though I know I shouldn't be doing it today.

So true! For a minute (really only a minute) I thought...what's worse, the drought? or my bilge issues?
 

jacksonkev

Member III
I understand that this is especially an issue for boats with a keel stepped mast where rain water runs down the mast into the bilge. However, the original poster specified his boat as an E30+ which is deck stepped, so rain water down the mast is not a source for his water intrusion. It must be something like a leaking port or deck fitting, leaking anchor locker, etc. as he found the water after a significant rain storm. So it's likely not a seawater leak through a seacock or similar.
It might be helpful to hear from him again on any progress in resolving his problem.
Frank

All true, in thinking about it though...while I've owned this boat for 2+ drought conditions years, the boat shows zero signs of water leaking in other than a few drips coming from the underside of the deck stepped mast in the head. I've also notice tiny trace amounts of water around the small starboard portlight directly across from the head. The survey was glowing about the condition of the portlight seals and hatches. The cabin is miraculously clean with no water stains on the teal interior. I toured plenty of "leakers" while looking at boats to know there was a big difference. The deck hardware could need rebedding but I haven't seen much evidence of leakage there after washdowns. I'll keep a closer eye going forward though. Good food for thought though!
 

bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
Speaking of which, what's a TAFG Structure? I googled it and came up dry (pun intended).

TAFG is the "tri-axial force grid", basically a structural grid built into the bottom of our boats to take the loads of rig, keel, etc.

Brochure picture attached (from a 32-III)

The net effect is a very strong boat, with a bunch of molded-in bilge "pockets" where water can hide ;-)

TAFG.jpg
 
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jacksonkev

Member III
TAFG is the "tri-axial force grid", basically a structural grid built into the bottom of our boats to take the loads of rig, keel, etc.

Brochure picture attached (from a 32-III)

The net effect is a very strong boat, with a bunch of molded-in bilge "pockets" where water can hide ;-)

Thank you...makes a lot of sense. I wonder when/why they changed it from my version to the newer version?
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Bilge, Bolts, and Grid stuff

Thanks but wow, you're not kidding...my bilge doesn't even resemble yours. I don't have any pics (yet) but I'm attaching a video I took with my one good hand yesterday. FYI-my bilge pump is remotely located deep in the lazarette. I'm more confused now than I was when I started my PB&J.

Speaking of which, what's a TAFG Structure? I googled it and came up dry (pun intended).

My E30+ is a 1980. The first model year. I'm assuming there were some changes. I know some basic differences. My companionway sliding hatch is fiberglass, my spars are white/Kenyon, my boom is lower to the cabin top, etc. Looks like I can add the "TAFG" to the list.[video=youtube_share;UXe_PDI57h4]https://youtu.be/UXe_PDI57h4[/video]

Perhaps there was a transition period where EY was still using a partial interior pan and also "hat stringers" across the bottom with their base flanges carrying the keel bolts. This is approx. the method they used for our O-34. We do not have the full-on TAFG of the 80's Ericson's, for instance.
Your bilge with keel bolts looks a lot like our boat. Pix of ours in this blog entry: http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/entry.php?480-New-Bilge-Hose-April-2016

On the up side, you still have one good hand to hold that sandwich!
 
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