E38 Anchor roller "Bail" and ATN TAcker

G'day to all and especially E38-200 owners,

I would like to ask information about the following 2 questions:

1. how many here are using bails for setting and flying Spinnakers, ASM types or otherwise, where I can get a suitable "bail" to fit my anchor roller?

The SS frames making up the anchor bow roller are outside dimension is 110mm, 4 inches, the ss plates either side of the roller are 6mm, 1/4" thickness.
Inside dimension width being 88mm or 3 1/2".

The dimensions and sizes that I have seen on the WM and Defender sites do not show a bail of this size to suit that I can see.

see the following link for the anchor roller bail I am after, but am not sure where I can purchase one from.

http://kingstonanchors.com/accessories/bails-2/

I am in Bermuda and would order online from USA to ship to me, any suggestions where to purchase from, or happy buy from anyone here that has one to spare that would suit my anchor roller specs above.

2. with regard to my second question, I would like to ask if any one here has comments, experiences, good bad or otherwise recommendations, for or against the use of the ATN Tacker.

All comments from any size vessel owners using the ATN Tacker welcomed.

Hammy in sunny Bermuda.

I picked up an ATN tacker, cheap, in a used gear shop. It was an impulse purchase... Haven't really done much with it to date. The webbing on it is badly chaffed and needs repair. One of these snow-bound weekends...
I'll just note that the one I found was supposedly one or two sizes too large for my boat, but it barely fits over the rolled-up genoa. Of course, it isn't really supposed to slide over the thickest middle part. Probably sail material and sun-shade material makes a big difference. So maybe a cautionary note to get the inside diameter spec before ordering and compare that to the actual measured diameter of your rolled sail.

Hammy,

I have an ATN tracker. It is useful only for slightly closer wind angles when sailing a reach with an asym. When you fall off to sail a deeper angle, you want to have the sail belly out more and the tracker is not useful, in fact it hinders. I probably would not get one if I did it over.

I am kind of in the learning space here, but I thought that the point of the gadget is to let you fly a symmetrical kite as if it were an asymmetrical?

Merrimist said:

1. how many here are using bails for setting and flying Spinnakers, ASM types or otherwise, where I can get a suitable "bail" to fit my anchor roller

Click to expand...

I am, albeit on a 32-III. My anchor-roller dimensions are smaller, I found a shaefer "forged" bail that was close to the right size, squeezed it a little in a bench vise, and drilled out the holes slightly so that I could use the same pin to secure it in place. I put a block on it, and run the tack line for an asymmetric aft from there (picture below). By using the pin I can easily switch out the bail and use the same pin to secure the anchor in the roller (I experimented with bolting the bail in place, as shown in the picture you linked, but I didn't like having to grab tools to remove the bail)

Fisheries Supply has a schaefer forged bail that is 3-3/4" wide, you might be able to do the same thing (squeeze it down to the width you need).

http://www.fisheriessupply.com/schaefer-marine-boom-bail-round-forged

Note that my use of an asymmetric is casual. I bought a light-air sail for getting down the Sound. If I were racing, or had any thought of using an asymmetric in significant breeze, I would probably go to the effort to install a properly-backed pad-eye for a tack fitting.

Merrimist said:

2. with regard to my second question, I would like to ask if any one here has comments, experiences, good bad or otherwise recommendations, for or against the use of the ATN Tacker.

Click to expand...

I chose *not* to get an ATN tacker. Partly because in my intended use (with the wind well aft) it isn't really necessary, but also because I didn't want to be putting side-loads on the headstay and possibly kinking or squishing foil sections.

$.02
Bruce

I have a stock bail on the bow assembly that looks fine for an Asym in light air. It appears to be a standard boom bail, secured by a bolt as in Bruce's photo.

Hi Christian,

Can you please let me know where you got the 'stock bail' from?

Regarding the lifting forces when flying any chutes on the anchor roller assembly fitted with bail, please also confirm that you have or have not any extra strengthening of the bow roller assembly, i.e. doubler plate under deck at bolts holding anchor roller.

Segway into wind strengths when flying a chute/spinnaker, is there a rule of thumb that you use for apparent and true wind strengths of when you are dropping your sail, taking into account the type and weight of the sail.

On some other sail boats where I have been new to that I have crewed, there were clear laid down wind (apparent and true) strengths at which were kept hand to refer to when new to the boat that you would put a single and or second reef in the main, commence furling headsail to marks etc. Change sail sizes etc.
Is there such a table for the E38 200? Or where could I find this info?

I'll try to take a photo today.

Bails are common, if you can find one to fit.

http://www.defender.com/category.jsp?path=-1|118|2358532&id=2358533

Merrimist said:

Segway into wind strengths when flying a chute/spinnaker, is there a rule of thumb that you use for apparent and true wind strengths of when you are dropping your sail, taking into account the type and weight of the sail.

Click to expand...

To a great extent, this depends on the sail. Some sailmakers make a "cruising" or "all purpose" assymmetric, which is good across a broad range of wind strengths and angles. It is very much (in Bruce's Opinion) a compromise sail - it is cut fairly flat, and made out of fairly heavy cloth, so that it will be usable in a bunch of conditions, but not really "good" in any of them.

For my purposes, I wanted a sail that would get me downwind in light conditions, *not* for racing, but for casual sailing - usually by myself. So I asked my sailmaker to make one in what is called the "A2" shape, which is optimized for broad-reaching (apparent wind angles of 120-150 degrees). And I had it made out of a fairly light cloth, good up to 10-12 knots of apparent windspeed. My thought process was that I wanted a sail that would "float" in light air, downwind. In stronger wind or at closer angles, I'll jib-reach with the 135.

All of that boils down to... think through what you want the sail for. A narrow scenario (like mine) calls for different design and cloth choices than an "all purpose" or cruising sail, or a racing sail.

Merrimist said:

On some other sail boats where I have been new to that I have crewed, there were clear laid down wind (apparent and true) strengths at which were kept hand to refer to

Click to expand...

You may be thinking of a "sail crossover" chart (sample, below). It's a chart that you can use to determine.... "hmmm, it's blowing 15 and our apparent wind is just aft of the beam, the best sail for these conditions is ____". I'm not aware of any standardized crossover chart for our boats - plus, any crossover chart will be different depending on the design of the sails you have. But it's fairly easy to build your own, over time. Just record your observations during your sailing time. When you change sail or trim to match certain conditions, that's a crossover point for your boat. Over time, you can aggregate that into things like "when the AWS is 18 and the AWA is 90-degrees, we like the 135% jib sheeted to the rail, with the car at hole #10 on the outboard track..."

$.02
Bruce

Or

Christian Williams said:

I'll try to take a photo today.

Bails are common, if you can find one to fit.

http://www.defender.com/category.jsp?path=-1|118|2358532&id=2358533

Click to expand...

Or Call Garhauer with your dimensions and they will make one to fit. (Bend a stock size for you mostly). And it will cost less....
Guy

bgary said:

[...]

I chose *not* to get an ATN tacker. Partly because in my intended use (with the wind well aft) it isn't really necessary, but also because I didn't want to be putting side-loads on the headstay and possibly kinking or squishing foil sections.

Click to expand...

I made the same decision, for the same reasons. I have a big North asymmetrical chute and, in my hands, it is capable of producing some strong shock loads. I don't want to end up without a forestay.

We have a tacker that we occasionally use. It works well as an option with the pros/cons that are mentioned ad nauseum all over the web. Mainly we connect the spinnaker's tack via a spectra pendant connected to an eye-nut on the end of the bolt that goes through the anchor roller. http://www.westmarine.com/buy/wichard--eye-nuts--P002_060_008_004

G'day fellow E owners,

what follows in blue text is cut and paste from email I received from the designer and manufacturer of the ATN Tacker, clearly the owner designer manufacturer is going to give the ATN Tacker a good wrap, interpret as you may, thousands of ATN Tackers in use over 15 years is a strong point.

the tacker is the most useful when the side load is the least: in a broad reach, when the tack is at its highest setting, is when the side load is the least:
on a close reach, when the side load is more important, the setting of the tacker, hence the tack of the spinnaker is much lower, closer to the stem of the boat, which takes the load.
as you have a roller furler, your backstay, hence the headstay supporting the roller furler must be always taught, never sloppy, as the extrusions of your roller furler would play and bend at the junctions: when the tacker loads up the roller furler, the load is spread first by the height of the tacker, which in your case / Tacker B is 8", onto the roller furler extrusion / usually 5', then onto the headstay.
I have sold thousands of tackers for more than 15 years now and never had to replace a roller furler.

Back to me - It is understandable that there may be some shock loads - setting/collapsing/setting again, and the concerns of some here is noted. although I do not know if this concern is real or imagined. Damage to the foil on roller furler is not wanted by me or anyone. I would be the first to forward notes and pics of any damage to rigging caused by this product asking for repair costs.

After some consideration and taking into account the replies in this thread, I have now gone ahead and purchased the medium sized ATN Tacker.
I look forward to the coming summer and using it myself, I will be happy to follow up here with my use of this item which I hope will make single and or short handed sailing easier - easier = more fun in my book.

Ryan L said:

We have a tacker that we occasionally use. It works well as an option with the pros/cons that are mentioned ad nauseum all over the web. Mainly we connect the spinnaker's tack via a spectra pendant connected to an eye-nut on the end of the bolt that goes through the anchor roller. http://www.westmarine.com/buy/wichard--eye-nuts--P002_060_008_004

Click to expand...

Here's the bail on my anchor gear. Installed by former owner, I haven't tried it as a tack attachment.