Ericson Wood Identification ( teak or mahogany?)

I thought my current boat had mahogany, or a mixture of mahogany and teak. Now I am pretty sure I'm wrong, and that the factory used teak throughout.

I was misled by the redness of the varnished elements, especially the original hatch boards, which had many coats. Teak is basically brown, as any teak deck shows or oiled hand rail reveals. My varnished handrails look attractively deep brown under multiple layers of Schooner varnish: obviously teak.

But have a look at the hatch board in the forefront of this photo:



Quite red, wouldn't you say? Perhaps Mahogany, then?

Nope, it's teak.

And surely the brown bookcase in the photo, which I just built to go on the cabin bulkhead, is teak? It's browner than the hatch board under three coats of satin varnish. .

But no, the bookcase is Home Depot "African mahogany." But the term "mahogany" doesn't mean much anymore, and it may be sapele, or meranti or lauan. I've been making boat stuff out of it, and although it takes varnish well, it has a sort of tiger-skin pattern I don't like and tends to nick off in a way real Philippine mahogany never would.

The piece between the hatch board and the bookcase is an edge from the stock Ericson table on the E38. It was quite red, so I thought it was mahogany.

It's teak. We rarely want to plane a table, but in cutting it down a size, I did. And here's the shaving comparision:



At left, teak from the table. At right, Home Depot mahogany from the bookcase.

Reading suggests that wood identification is not all that easy, even for experienced hands. End grain is the best proof, but my eye isn't sophisticated enough to confidently apply reality to the charts. However, smell is a useful shortcut. Sanded or planed teak has a sour smell that is unmistakable.

In fact, the Ericson brochure mentions (brags) only of teak. That is one more bit of evidence, even though the brochure was written by an ad agency (the link is a download). http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/vbdownloads.php?do=file&fileid=117

No matter, because the woods tend to match. On this modified teak cabin table, the new fiddles (or rails) are mahogany.



One other note: my sturdy-looking teak hatch boards were made in three pieces. After 30 years that's not a good way to seal the companionway against breaking seas or very unwelcome guests. If mine were an example, one swift kick would break right through. I went to a one-piece board for security.

Photo note: I reduced the size of the photos above by resizing them on my computer to max pixel dimension of 800.

The forum software used to do this automatically, but no longer does.

If photos appear extra large, and don't get larger when clicked on, they can be deleted from a post, reduced in size, and re-uploaded as substitutes.

That also eliminates the doubled photos under many posts (except in Blog posts, where the trick doesn't work).

Christian,
I made the same exact same discoveries in my Ericson a few years ago. In my previous Sabre, the interior was unmistakably teak. Over the years, I had built things of Philippine mahogany (when it existed) and later of Honduras mahogany. I thought I could recognize these woods, varnished and bare, from my experience. When I got the E-38, I was not sure what wood was used for the interior. It looked like mahogany to me. On this forum, people were all talking about teak interiors. Low and behold, it is teak. Sanding or planing releases the unmistakable oily texture and distinctive teak smell. I believe that Ericson used a slightly redder teak than we commonly find on boats and in hardwood lumber yards. So, when I have needed to match the grain and color, I have successfully used "mahogany". As you note, there really is no longer any available mahogany as in years past. The African meranti, sapele, or the cheap "Luan" plywood seem to be all that is available and affordable. With careful browsing, I can usually find a mahogany board that matches my "Ericson teak." Nobody has ever noticed the difference. (You can see photos in an old garbage bin project post of mine from several years back. Sorry, I don't have the link. But, I'm sure you can find it if you wish.)
Mike Jacker

teak

Spanish cedar is also an affordable look alike option, especially for handrails as it can be found in long enough lengths to do the rails in one piece and it is durable and resistant to rot.

Note that EY usually stained the interior teak veneers and solid trim with a light red "cherry" stain to blend in the various lighter and darker bits.
Our '88 was done this was way and other owners have found the same evidence inside their Ericson's.
I suspect that the marketing dept demanded this type of look for the inside wood. (?)

We have varnished out about 3/4 of our interior as of last year. The look is now much lighter and brighter inside. There are some photos in my blog. We bleach out the old oil and stain, back to golden teak, and then varnish.

We like the variations in grain and color in the natural teak, and love the warmth of the varnished teak.

**Added comment: if you look at the photos in this blog entry, note that we removed the head door and refinished it well before we tackled the bulkhead refinishing project. You can really see the contrast between the restored natural wood on the door, compared to the factory (and rather ancient) oil & stain on the adjacent bulkhead wood.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/entry.php?100-Vent-Method-for-Cabin-Doors

Loren

ps: I have heard that EY started using teak for the inside cabinetry by the late 70's.

That does explain a lot.

Interesting to me that the interior veneer is darker behind seat-backs or under removed plates.

With age, "enlightenment"?

Enlightenment, indeed

Christian Williams said:

That does explain a lot.

Interesting to me that the interior veneer is darker behind seat-backs or under removed plates.

With age, "enlightenment"?

Click to expand...

Over the years, the UV thru the ports will affect the color of the wood surface.
Lightens it up, usually, AFAIK.

Loren

Mahogany to teak on our Ericsons.

All, If it helps and if true of the rest of the Ericson fleet, about mid year in 1977 Ericson began using all teak in the 31. It was an abrupt change as would be expected, hull #21 is mahogany and hull #22 is teak. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey CA

Late 70's sounds about right. Mahogany had been the wood of choice previously, but for some reason teak came into favor among many boatbuilders around then. When I arrived at Ericson in '83, all wood was teak and had been for some time. And there was a lot of teak: bulkheads, bunk faces, doors, drawers, tables, ceiling planking, cabin fascia, sole (teak & holly), corner posts, hatch boards, ladders, fiddles, handrails, ...

On the later models, we used quarter sawn teak plywood for the bulkheads, which was a better quality and had a straighter grain than flat or rotary cut.

-Roger

Roger,
Do you know if Ericson was using an interior varnish with pigment in it to resemble mahogany? Do you happen to know what product they used to finish the teak? Where I have stripped the wood in my boat, the teak beneath appears ordinary and does not seem to have been stained. If I use clear varnish on it, it becomes brown like any teak typically does.
Mike

Applying the interior finish

Joliba said:

Roger,
Do you know if Ericson was using an interior varnish with pigment in it to resemble mahogany? Do you happen to know what product they used to finish the teak? Where I have stripped the wood in my boat, the teak beneath appears ordinary and does not seem to have been stained. If I use clear varnish on it, it becomes brown like any teak typically does.
Mike

Click to expand...

Mike, When you say you stripped your wood surface, what product or chemical did you use? I ask because we have used only Te-Ka A and B, and long after varnishing our teak (solid or veneer) keeps its look of "natural golden teak" many years after being refinished.

Original purchasers opting ($) for the factory-varnished out interior may or not have had a base coat of tinted oil applied. Maybe someone that worked there knows.

Loren

I'm not sure where this fits in, but:

On my boat nothing was more "red" than the hatch boards. Quite pretty. But I was wrong about mahogany, they're teak.

In repurposeing them, I had occasion to strip with heat gun. Here is the board, the raw teak, and a heat-gun strip.

It doesn't look like any pigment was in the varnish. I guess the effect was just the "golden" quality of varnish after many coats.

Wonderful Wood

Considerable irony in this thread !
I was just imaging owners of several ubiquitous brands of production sailboats built in the 70's/80's having a similar discussion about their 'genuine wood-look Formica" interiors. Ooooooooh My.


Of course the guys with the old Swan's and Baltic's probably have a similar viewpoint about us.

And, so it goes.

Seriously:
It's a good day to be warm and dry inside. Very Stormy here.
Water running down the street. Rain pounding on the roof and ventilators of our house.

Rain amounts headed for the record books here. Good day to be home in front of the fire and getting ready for a late afternoon turkey dinner.

All the best to you, wherever you are.

Loren

IN Los Angeles, dry and hot and desert clear. I can see San Nicholas Island, far out past Catalina. NE Santa Anna winds buffeted us in the night, sometimes 50 knots, but such a ferocious desertr wind ruffles the water only five miles out, and you can see where the wind line ends. It is why in "Two Years Before the Mast" they upped anchor and ran off the safety at sea.

But I imagine the smell of turkey is the same everywhere in America.

My wife had a conference call today with a German. He apologized profusely and postponed it. "I should know this is a big day for you."

Around me, on our walk this morning, Mexican-American leaf blowers went about their work as usual. But not all of them, I'm sure.

It's a holiday with a specific history and mythology, a New World Feast that's tolerably all-inclusive--if you feel included.

East of the mountains, there's barely a mist. Still no wind, either, so the leaves are really piling up.
I've been out cutting firewood this morning, before guests arrive. They've made a big point about wanting to use the hot tub, so I've got to go clean up the back yard next. I'm guessing that nobody will go near it.

The Korean couple who have run the local grocery for decades finally retired this year, so the market is not open for those items you forgot to stock up on.
I wish I had bought a bottle of wine.

My wife and I are spending this Thanksgiving in Texas with my son-in law's family. They are Mexican Americans celebrating the holiday with the usual fare of turkey, stuffing, sweet potatoes, green bean casserole...and pies for dessert. My American friends of every ethnicity, religion and political persuasion all seem to observe this family oriented holiday of questionable historic origin.

Anyway, here is my take on teak:
Once one cuts into the wood or removes any treatments, it has a rich golden brown appearance unless it has dried out and lost its natural oils. It looks great oiled, varnished, or with a variety of coatings (cetol, Armada, etc.) On deck, if left untreated it will turn a uniform grey. Some people like that look. The two part teak treatments will return the grey teak to a more original golden appearance. When varnished, teak looks somewhat more dark brown than golden. This is the impressive finished look seen in the bright work of so many boats.
In contrast, interior teak will remain as it was treated for many years. All the deterioration on deck seems to come from UV damage and prolonged weathering. I recently stripped our companionway ladder because of many areas of physical wear leaving exposed wood, as well as some unaesthetic color variations. I used Citristrip followed by some sanding.(This was my first experience with Citristrip, which I found very easy and effective to use.) After that, the wood appeared golden brown like a freshly cut teak board. Clear varnish applied to that yields a browner tone than the original Ericson interior. This has convinced me that Ericson used something other than a clear varnish to obtain the slightly lighter and redder, "mahogany-like" interior. If I knew what it was, I would duplicate it.
Happy Thanksgiving to all.
Mike Jacker

Joliba said:

Roger,
Do you know if Ericson was using an interior varnish with pigment in it to resemble mahogany? Do you happen to know what product they used to finish the teak? Where I have stripped the wood in my boat, the teak beneath appears ordinary and does not seem to have been stained. If I use clear varnish on it, it becomes brown like any teak typically does.
Mike

Click to expand...

Mike,
During my watch ('83-'90), there were no pigments used. Buyers had a choice of an oiled or varnished interior for most models, the latter at an additional cost.

I don't recall the brand of teak oil we used, but it was the old type that had a nasty habit of spontaneously combusting oil-soaked rags. The varnished finish option consisted of 3 coats (I think) of clear satin varnish.

Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!
-Roger

One certainty is that Ericson used some of the finest joinery and cabinet making that graced a production boat! The woodwork was really quite excellent, IMHO.