Propane Cabin Heater Question

I wonder if anyone has a Sig Marine Cozy Cabin propane heater, and if this note from the manual means what it seems to:

No heat if temperature falls below 32F? Really?

4. LPG gas will not flow as readily if the outside temperature is very low, ie. belowfreezing.
There is not much you can do about this condition until the propanecylinder locker warms up.

I call BS. This should not be a factor unless you are spending the winter above the arctic circle. The boiling point of propane is -42°C, so it should be usable at any temperature significantly above that. Some cheap or old regulators may fail in cold temperature. I think I've lost a tank of helium and one of propane because a regulator diaphragm lost its seal in the cold. But I use propane at -23 C, with the regulators outside, all the time.

I do not have the "cozy cabin heater," because I read bad reviews about it. You wouldn't take that one to the arctic circle, anyway.

After some consolidation in the industry that's just the current name for the old Force 10 Cozy Cabin Heater.
I installed one in our Niagara 26, and it replaced an '81 model kerosine fuel version of the same heater.
Works great, and having a petite 1" stack is nice. You will need a circulation fan adjacent to the stack to help disperse heat around and minimize air layering in the cabin.
Also, since it's an "exposed" flame, I was loathe to leave it running after we went to bed at night. OTOH, it could warm up the interior quickly in the morning.

Those little cabin heaters are great for smaller needs and modest budgets. I would not put one into our current boat only because we have a lot of cubic space to warm up.

I always heard the stories of slow-gassing propane in really cold weather, but recall that it lit off with no problems on a 34 degree morning; our propane tank was in a well-ventilated stern compartment and so was always at ambient temperature.

Where we live and go boating, I doubt that it would ever get cold enough depress the evaporative rate of the LPG too much to use. Further, lots of little communities and dwellings all the up the OR and WA coasts have propane tanks outside for all their cooking and heating, including areas where it snows occasionally.

Loren

Never had a problem with ours on the BC coast. Works great, though we don't use it alot.
Frank

Frank Langer said:

Never had a problem with ours on the BC coast. Works great, though we don't use it alot.
Frank

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Are you able to post a picture of your installation Frank? I don't have propane on my 30+, so I'm probably going to go diesel heat instead but the space on the bulkhead is pretty limited.

As you can see in my pic, my propane heater is mounted on the starboard bulkhead, facing aft, 14 inches up from the settee cushions. It's by the starboard tie rods but butting up against the trim on the left side of the bulkhead. The one inch stainless chimney goes through the deck and has a small cover there.

It's all quite attractive, not like some stove installations I've seen. It's out of the way, doesn't interfere and looks good. And it provides heat if I need it.

Frank

I think my boat once had a CCH... it had the 1" flu fitting in the deck and some scorch marks on the liner. Probably should have screwed a SS heat shield to the bulkhead behind it. I filled the empty space with a Force 10 catalytic propane heater, found used. I also have been chicken to go to sleep with it burning, which has lead to a couple of very cold nights. (Since insulated the sides of the V-berth.) Some day I'll trade the F10 in for a Dickinson Newport.

If you have diesel on board, prolly ought to look at a diesel heater like Webasto or a clone thereof.

Photos: The forum software can't rotate pix. It has to be done before uploading. Check photo on computer desktop, save it, then upload.

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Complete walk-through here.

Frank Langer said:

As you can see in my pic, my propane heater is mounted on the starboard bulkhead, facing aft, 14 inches up from the settee cushions.

Frank

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Thanks for sharing, the newport diesel heater is a fair bit bigger but now I'm not so concerned any more about the intrusion of space. I need to figure out some sort of heat... and I already have diesel onboard so it's pretty much my only option unless I add propane.

Really enjoy our propane fireplace

Photo attached of the propane New Port fireplace on Spirit Moon, E 38. Use it a lot in the shoulder seasons and cool summer nights when cruising the west coast of Vancouver Island.

I see. The issue with the attractive little "Cozy Cabin" seems to be moisture, and a worrisome open flame. An issue with diesel models is draw for teh fan--which can be 10 amps. Prices shoot up quickly. Insulation becomes important.

Even so, the Sig Marine CC may work for somebody like me, who has limited needs, an electric heater for dockside, and likes the small flue and lack of a big Charlie Noble.

For the record, here is Maine Sail on the topic, coped from 2006 at Sailnet:

I must respectfully disagree with the performance and design of the Force 10 or Cozy Cabin heater as it is now called. It is a PITA and very poorly designed for use in small confined spaces unless you like rain from condensation in your vessel.

Mine has been disconnected for the last three years. I'd rather go without heat than sop & drench the inside of my vessel due to the non-sealed & very humid combustion of the Force 10.

LP combustion can be about 50% moisture. Not ALL this moisture vents out the arguably undersized 1" flue vent and the boat windows quickly fog and condensation begins to form rapidly.

While it looks nice it is an awfully expensive decorative fireplace...

I agree with ceramic disc heaters like the Pelonis or similar. Nice dry heat. The Dickinson's are much nicer and MUCH drier as they employ sealed combustion meaning none of the LP moisture from combustion gets expelled into the cabin. They also incorporate a fan to circulate the heat where a Force 10 does not.

If you want the ultimate system then a Wallas or Espar system would be very sweet..

With two ceramic disc heaters, 3000 watts, I can do varnish work in temps to 0 F in Maine.. Electric is the easiest and least expensive up front cost, of course the monthly electric bill may choke you but at least you won't be lugging propane or diesel down the docks and under a winter cover either..

Seldom would I (ever!) disagree with MS, but he is wrong about the exhaust gases (& water vapor) from the Cozy Cabin Heater. I had one for a decade on our prior boat. No exhaust vapor inside... because there is zero combustion gas inside the boat.
The (very hot) stack takes all the exhaust gases up... the stack... and outside.

While it's certainly true that burning hydrocarbon fuels, like propane or alcohol inside using a burner in the galley range will put combustion byproducts into the interior, the little Cozy Cabin heater puts none of this inside (and it it does, there's something very wrong with the stack!)

Heck, a forced air diesel furnace has an external exhaust, and you would not want that going inside either, and it's not designed to do so.

The nowadays-popular Dickinson bulkhead propane heater ever goes one nice step further, and keeps the flame behind glass, and uses outside air for combustion. What with also incorporating a heat circulation fan, it pretty well covers most of the bases for a bulkhead heating device. A friend of ours has one on his Ericson 32-3 and likes it a lot (pictured elsewhere on this site).

Loren

I can't speak to the propane cozy heater because I have a kerosine one. It works great but I agree, I never leave it unattended cause it is a bit finicky. What I can tell you is that I live in Alaska and frequently BBQ with my propane grill for the better part of the winter with absolutely no problem.

E28+ cabin heat

Behold good news. I found a portable, indoor propane heater that does the job with similar BTU, and no chimney. Check out "MrHeater". It shuts off automatically if knocked over but personally I only run it when I am awake and below, but it is made for indoor use

First. This is illegal as hell as far as the Coast Guard and ABYC are concerned. Your Insurance company might also have a few objections if something happens. The bigger problem is the affixations and fires that we have had due to various portable propane heaters used in boats here in the North West. No portable devise should EVER be left unattended while heating and the device should not be left unattended in the cabin when not in use. This propane is mighty explosive stuff and you could be creating a powerful bomb should you have a leak. Two years ago, A powerboat blew up in John Wayne Marina destroying several boats and killing the owner. The cause was a portable heater leaking. Your cabin is very small and it takes very little propane to make an explosive mixture.

rpm said:

Behold good news. I found a portable, indoor propane heater that does the job with similar BTU, and no chimney. Check out "MrHeater". It shuts off automatically if knocked over but personally I only run it when I am awake and below, but it is made for indoor use

Click to expand...

Heat, yes.
Combustion gases inside, also Yes. :0

Unless you use it with a hatch at least partly open, you are taking a huge risk. Those heaters are best used for radiant heating situations like fishermen sitting under a dodger/canopy warming their hands and shins...

So while I have used (and enjoyed) having a Mr Heater device under a dodger for a two-day 25 degree winter delivery, I would not use one for inside heat.

Be warm and stay safe.

Loren

E28+ cabin heat

You missed the point. Normal precautions apply. But The point is this " Mr Heater" is legal for indoor use in 49 states. It heats 450sf, has an oxygen sensor with shut off, a tipping shut off, and relies on a radiant heat element with pilot flame rather than open flames. I leave my hatch slightly open anyway. The propane connections are standard. So I am hard put to see the problems you describe.
I don't sell these things but check them out because they are a relatively new design

rpm said:

You missed the point. Normal precautions apply. But The point is this " Mr Heater" is legal for indoor use in 49 states. It heats 450sf, has an oxygen sensor with shut off, a tipping shut off, and relies on a radiant heat element with pilot flame rather than open flames. I leave my hatch slightly open anyway. The propane connections are standard. So I am hard put to see the problems you describe.
I don't sell these things but check them out because they are a relatively new design

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Yup. That's the model I am familiar with. And I agree with Bob that it's probably not "legal" for inside use in your boat. The exhaust has to vent outside for it to be considered safe. If you recall those instant boilers for water heating sold to boaters in the 80's, it was the deaths of several boaters that let to them being removed from the US market.

Additionally, those throw-away bottles are notorious for having leaks around their gas ports (on top). While they are OK most of the time, I have had them lose their charge (i.e. leak out) while stored. That's why they should not be stored or used inside the boat. We use them routinely for the bbq, and keep the spare one # bottles stored in a vented locker, sealed from the boat's interior.

While the risk may be quite low, it is deadly. We do not want to lose any Ericson owners!

As the sergeant used to say on Hill Street Blues, "Be careful out there!"

Loren Beach said:

Yup. That's the model I am familiar with.

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I have one of those. And even thought it is a "ceramic" heater, there's still propane going in and combustion gases coming out.

No way in hell I'd use it in an enclosed place without adequate ventilation. Especially as those combustion gases (carbon monoxide) are going to gather low and fill up the space from the bottom, rather than peaceably floating out a cracked hatch.

Obnote, the Mr. Heater manual itself is quite clear about the need for adequate ventilation, saying things like:

"this is an unvented gas-fired heater. adequate ventilation air must be provided"
"This heater requires a vent area of 9 square inches (example 3" x 3" opening) minimum for adequate ventilation during operation. "
"If the enclosure does not have a window or roof vent, DO NOT USE THIS HEATER INSIDE "
"Do not use in unventilated areas."

$.02

We are still missing one biggee here. The Coast Guard and ABYC are quite explicit about how propane is to be handled on board. The tank is to be in a sealed locker with a minimum of a 1/2" overboard drain. The tank is to have a remote shutoff. The propane line is to be continuous to the appliance with no connections. Only one appliance is allowed per line. A portable tank is not allowed in the cockpit or on the rail because, if it leaks, it will fill the cockpit with gas and that gas will find it's way below through cracks in the cockpit hatches and the companion way boards. Once inside, the gas has nowhere to go so it sits around. In your house, it can seep out but not in your boat. It takes very little gas to become a bomb. Several owners around here have found that out. By the way, those little canisters that are used for the BBQ's are not certified for marine use and need to be handled carefully. Loren is right in that they need to be in a sealed locker when not in use. Over the years, I have had one fully discharge and one half discharge. By the way, storage in the ships propane locker is forbidden. The only things allowed in there is the tank, regulator and solenoid valve.
I have a Mr. Heater that I use to heat the garage. I make sure the tank is outside when the heater is in use. No way would I use it inside. From being a General Contractor for many years, I have seen how fast a faulty heater can poison the air in a house. There are far fewer cu ft of air in your boat so it will poison the air much faster. Propane is safe to use on board and convenient if properly handled. I have seen the results of improperly handled several times. The results are not pretty.

There is a reason the Coast Guard is so anal about propane. It is dangerous and it is deadly. These explosions do not just affect the boat and people in it but others also. If you want to use the heater, go ahead. You are an adult. But please do me a favor. Don't tie up next to my boat while you are using it.