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Separate Trysail Track?

p.gazibara

Member III
Hey all,

I will be pulling my mast in the coming months and I am curious of how other deal with storm sails, more importantly do I need to add a second track on my mast.

When I bought Cinderella she came with a storm jib and a storm trysail. I have used the storm jib in some winds too big for 100% jib last winter (not quite sure the exact speed the meter doesn't work). I have hoisted the trysail once, just for practice out on the Sound, but I have never needed anything more than my 2nd reef as of yet. What I have learned is that it is a PITA! It's manageable with two of us, assuming we have the storm jib flying and the boat is under control.

After reading Lin and Larry, Hal Ross, and Beth Leonard they all recommend a separate storm trysail track for long term cruising, and I can completely understand why.

Has anyone fitted their boat with one? If so, how did you go about it? how high up the mast do you fly the sail? I noticed that If I attach the trysail to the same place the main foot is attached to, the sail doesn't clear the dodger or the boom.

I imagine if conditions were really that bad, I would have folded up the dodger, but I can't say that that is 100% going to be the case.

Any info you guys have would be great, thanks!
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Sounds like one way to do it is to first decide how you want to rig it, then have a sail cut to fit your boat...

Well, I haven't done it, but did happen to read about it a couple of days ago. Everyone recommends a separate track, and some say it should go down low on the mast, so you can feed the try sail onto it and lash it down, out of the way until it's needed. The thing that left me with questions is that the authors made a point of saying that the track should be through-bolted to a backing plate - not just screwed in with sheet metal screws. Which left me scratching my head, trying to figure out how one would actually do that :confused:

I'll continue to try to not go out in that kind of weather ;)
 

Ryan L

s/v Naoma
Trysail track

We've found the trysail to be an exceptionally useful sail on our E38-200, especially when sailing upwind with AWS > 20kts. We have a somewhat new radial cut main with deep reefs but find the trysail performs better than our deeply reefed main in those conditions. If we're just sailing for a few hours or even a day we usually just reef the main or drop it completely but for longer passages the trysail has been incredible for keeping the boat going well in tough conditions. All our sails are made by North. The storm sails are the stock sails off their website. They are well built and so far exceed our expectations.

Pacific Offshore Rigging in San Diego did an exceptional job fitting an external stainless steel track for our trysail and we find it makes setting the sail relatively easy. Our track runs nearly to the deck to facilitate bending on the sail. We run the sheets to blocks we've installed on both aft quarters of the cockpit then up to the cockpit winches.

Our storm jib sets on a PBO solent stay that runs from near the masthead to a deck fitting just aft of the headsail furler. The stay is tensioned by a high purchase sort-of block and tackle made of spectra and low friction rings with a tail leading back outside the stanchions just below the furler line (a Pacific Offshore Rigging original.) After setting it up we tension it from the cockpit. We installed an adjustable plate with two Spinlock clutches that slides onto the aft end of the outboard genoa track. These hold the furler line and the solent stay. The plates are designed and available through Pacific Offshore Rigging and are manufactured by Garhauer.

At 3m 07s in this video (click here) you can see the cockpit-eye view of our trysail matched to an 80% working jib set on the solent stay. This was our favorite set up for much of the kinda windy and rough upwind passage from Raroia to Fatu Hiva last November. The picture and another showing us sailing with deeply reefed main and jib on solent is on our North Sails page.

Disclosure- North Sails and Pacific Offshore Rigging are both supporters of our voyage.

Click Here for our YouTube Channel
Click Here for our Patreon page
Click Here for our Facebook page
 
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toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Reviving this thread for one of this winter's projects. I have the mast down and the new second track to install. Can anybody comment on how much space to leave between the main and auxiliary tracks? An inch separation would be enough for the sliders, but are there other interferences? It seems like the flaked main is always going to interfere somewhat with raising the trysail. If I'm seeing it right, Ryan's photo looks like the aux track diverges a bit from vertical from about the gooseneck on down?

Related issue: Separate halyard for the trysail or just switch the main halyard? I'm in receipt of expert advice to rig a separate halyard, but it seems like an extra line and block could lead to chafe and fouling.
Of course, if I switched to internal halyards, I'd have two extra sheaves to play with, but not sure I'm ready to go down that rabbit hole this year.

Hmm. Considering that the weather is turning nasty, maybe I'll bring the mast inside. I could lay it out full length on a greenhouse bench... rats, then I'd have to spend a couple of days on greenhouse maintenance that I've been procrastinating.
 

p.gazibara

Member III
Being the instigator of this thread, I have gain a bit of experience since I posted that.

- I never installed the trisail track on Cinderella's mast
- If I was to do it, I would run the track low and off to the side of the mast. You can bend those tracks a bit to get it around the boom area.
- A spare halyard would be nice, but no reason you can't use the same one
- There is other rigging involved in a trisail, you have two more sheets led aft, where will you sheet them?
- Of the few times I would have used a trisail, I'm not sure it was worth the extra effort beyond a 3rd or 4th reef.
- Before we left MX, I had a sailmaker put a very deep 3rd reef into our old main. It does the job and I can use the same sheet and sail shape controls as the main.

After getting our asses kicked in Central America, it was the ability to flatten or power up our main (on our second reef) with our vang/mainsheet that let us drive through the steep seas and actually sail to windward when it got really gusty. It was kind of a special situation, but it turns out you have to keep the boat driving hard to actually maintain a decent sail angle against steep seas, big wind, and the current that brings.

Ava was ready to jump ship after a couple days of that...

On the downwind side, these boats are easily driven. That means after about 15kts of breeze downwind, our main is coming down and the jib is doing all the work anyway.

Maybe a bigger boat I would seriously consider it, but on the 35 and smaller I might just put a deep reef in, and spend those extra boat $$$ on a conversion to electric ;)

-p
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Thanks for the response. I have already collected the hardware and the sails over the last few years for not a lot of cash and am beyond debating whether or not to do it. This is just the first time the mast has been down in several years and hence prime time to get going with installation.
...and now internalizing the halyards is starting to grow on me. Which will require moving the wiring to a conduit. It's like a virus. Argh!
 

Ryan L

s/v Naoma
Yes the track intentionally curved a bit near the bottom to create clearance. Not an issue. We ran a separate halyard inside the mast exiting just above the trysail track. Had to cut hole/install sheave. No big deal. I'm going from memory here but IIRC it exited the mast, passed through a cheek block and a round eye-bolt for fair lead then down. Once it's installed it is MUCH easier to use than trying to connect/disconnect the halyard from the main. We lead that halyard aft to a jammer in the cockpit (IIRC we added one to port side of that grouping then shifted the lines because the original halyard jammer was too worn to grip well). If I were to do it again the only thing I'd change would be to replace the worn jammer. We cleat the lines too and try to keep loads off the jammers but they're still nice for helping with line handling and the worn one would occasionally slip a bit.


Reviving this thread for one of this winter's projects. I have the mast down and the new second track to install. Can anybody comment on how much space to leave between the main and auxiliary tracks? An inch separation would be enough for the sliders, but are there other interferences? It seems like the flaked main is always going to interfere somewhat with raising the trysail. If I'm seeing it right, Ryan's photo looks like the aux track diverges a bit from vertical from about the gooseneck on down?

Related issue: Separate halyard for the trysail or just switch the main halyard? I'm in receipt of expert advice to rig a separate halyard, but it seems like an extra line and block could lead to chafe and fouling.
Of course, if I switched to internal halyards, I'd have two extra sheaves to play with, but not sure I'm ready to go down that rabbit hole this year.

Hmm. Considering that the weather is turning nasty, maybe I'll bring the mast inside. I could lay it out full length on a greenhouse bench... rats, then I'd have to spend a couple of days on greenhouse maintenance that I've been procrastinating.
 

Ryan L

s/v Naoma
Comments below...

Being the instigator of this thread, I have gain a bit of experience since I posted that.

- I never installed the trisail track on Cinderella's mast
- If I was to do it, I would run the track low and off to the side of the mast. You can bend those tracks a bit to get it around the boom area.

*Agreed

- A spare halyard would be nice, but no reason you can't use the same one

*Very difficult to remove main halyard from the mainsail and re-attach to trysail in anything other than settled weather. Using the main halyard leaves a long section of halyard extending from the top of the trysail to the masthead which tends to whip around, clank, etc when the trysail is being set up, doused, or kept at the ready.

- There is other rigging involved in a trisail, you have two more sheets led aft, where will you sheet them?

*On our E38-200 we installed pad eye on each quarter with a turning block. Trysail sheets ran inside the pushpit, through the blocks, to the primary winches. Worked perfectly and allowed for full range of sheeting.

* The bigger "issue" was securing the boom. We ended up vanging it down as close to the bimini as possible then triangulating it between the mainsheet and traveler. We ran one long line sort-of "daisy chained" from the gooseneck to secure the mainsail but still easy to remove.

- Of the few times I would have used a trisail, I'm not sure it was worth the extra effort beyond a 3rd or 4th reef.

*For us it was worth the effort (not much effort once practiced a few times) because the sail could be shaped much better (and flatter) than a deep reef. It was our favorite up-wind sail (paired with a 100% jib on inner stay) in anything more than steady moderate conditions.

- Before we left MX, I had a sailmaker put a very deep 3rd reef into our old main. It does the job and I can use the same sheet and sail shape controls as the main.

*Did you rig extra reef lines (which would have to be super long to reach the deep reef when the sail is fully hoisted) or re-lead some of the lines you already had? Either way was that easier than bending on a trysail??

After getting our asses kicked in Central America, it was the ability to flatten or power up our main (on our second reef) with our vang/mainsheet that let us drive through the steep seas and actually sail to windward when it got really gusty. It was kind of a special situation, but it turns out you have to keep the boat driving hard to actually maintain a decent sail angle against steep seas, big wind, and the current that brings.

* Agreed! But we preferred to get that power from the headsail and primarily use the main to balance the helm. Another helpful adjustment for us was running the traveler lines to the helm so in gusty conditions the traveler could be played single-handed. Spinlock makes these amazing sort-of jammers that are far easier to use than a typical cam block (and they mount into the same hole pattern) https://www.spinlock.co.uk/en/categories/cleats-1/product_groups/pxr-cam-cleat

Ava was ready to jump ship after a couple days of that...

On the downwind side, these boats are easily driven. That means after about 15kts of breeze downwind, our main is coming down and the jib is doing all the work anyway.

*Agreed! We used the main maybe 25% of the time?

Maybe a bigger boat I would seriously consider it, but on the 35 and smaller I might just put a deep reef in, and spend those extra boat $$$ on a conversion to electric ;)

*Oh, sorry, I was talking about an E38-200. I can't comment on the other models... Fair winds!

-p
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
- There is other rigging involved in a trisail, you have two more sheets led aft, where will you sheet them?


-p

Thinking a bit more about it... looks like this thing is going to want to be sheeted somewhere in between the primary and secondary winches. I'm not sure that will be a good angle to lead fair. I'd have to lead it from a block on the genoa track aft to a turning block, then back forward to the winch. A bit of extra friction. Fatty Goodlander recommends sheeting the trys'l right to a strop on the boom, and using the regular mainsheet controls, which might work here. Not sure if that was considering leaving the main lashed on the boom during this. The drawings aren't that precise - will just have to rig it up and "try." Wouldn't hurt to have a couple of different tricks available.
trysl.png
 
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nquigley

Sustaining Member
Being the instigator of this thread, I have gain a bit of experience since I posted that.
- I never installed the trisail track on Cinderella's mast
//
After getting our asses kicked in Central America, it was the ability to flatten or power up our main (on our second reef) with our vang/mainsheet that let us drive through the steep seas and actually sail to windward when it got really gusty. It was kind of a special situation, but it turns out you have to keep the boat driving hard to actually maintain a decent sail angle against steep seas, big wind, and the current that brings.
//

Did you install a staysail on Cinderella?
If so, how did you reinforce the foredeck, and approximately where was the anchor-point on the deck for the halyard? (just aft of the anchor locker, I'm guessing?)
Was the staysail stay positioned to run parallel to the main forestay, or were you more worried about a strong anchoring point on the deck?
Did you install a removable stay for the staysail, and where did the halyard run? (perhaps you used the existing spinnaker pole topping lift as halyard?)
 
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