• Untitled Document

    Join us on March 29rd, 7pm EST

    for the CBEC Virtual Meeting

    All EYO members and followers are welcome to join the fun and get to know the guest speaker!

    See the link below for login credentials and join us!

    March Meeting Info

    (dismiss this notice by hitting 'X', upper right)

Universal M40 32 HP intermittent starter prob

Merrimist

Hammy, 'Merrimist' E38 in sunny Bda
Good day happy E owners,
As a new owner of a 1986 E38220 (can anyone explain this to me, i.e. is it hull #20 of the E38-200 series? Or is it something else?)
My understanding is that the M40 32 HP Universal engine is original, running hours unknown.
I am new to this happy group, I was out sailing last weekend when just prior to me dropping the sails I wanted to start the engine, it would not start, it would not even crank, i.e. starter motor solenoid clicked when start button pushed, but no starter motor turning.
Brief background, nominal 12V in the two parallel linked batteries. Engine started from cold earlier in the day to leave the swing mooring, i.e. after 20 second glow plug button depressed, engine start button pushed, engine cranked and started normally. After setting the sails, enging pull stop operated and engine stopped normally.
Then about 4 hours later the engine would not start, as mentioned above, you could hear the fuel pump run when ignition switched on - normal, depress the glow plug button - normal, then release glow plug button and depress the start button. Then solenoid click and no cranking.
After several attempts, I sailed in and dropped the pick.
A couple of hours later, when I checked, the engine started normally. Point is the battery power seems ok, the fuel is ok, the stop pull has been reset and the engine started normally.
Next day, engine no crank when starting. Same thing. only solenoid pulling in but no cranking.
An hour later when checked, engine started normally.
The engine starting is not reliable.
If anyone has experienced this and can offer information on how they dealt with it would be much appreciated.
Or any suggestions or ideas on what maybe the problem that I can address to fix this quite annoying unreliability of engine start.
Thank you in advance,
Hammy in sunny Bermuda
 

bigd14

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
I had an similar issue on a charter boat. After dropping anchor we managed to find a cell signal and call the on-call charter mechanic. Mechanic advised lightly tapping the starter motor casing with a wrench. Once tapped she started immediately. I vaguely remember something about the rotating part stuck in a non-contact position and a little tapping moves it just enough to catch current. I think the solution was to rebuild the starter motor. Hopefully others can verify the solution.
 
Last edited:

PDX

Member III
This isn't going to solve your problem, but I've been told the maximum time you should leave the glow plug button pushed in is about 10 seconds.

Also, my manual says to leave the glow plug button pushed in while pushing the starting button--don't release it first. The manual further states that the glow plug button should be held in after the engine starts until the oil pressure shows 50 lbs or better.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
My guess is this is a minor problem.

Probably the solenoid has gone south.

Another common cause of intermittent starting problems are the push buttons themselves (glow and start, ignition too). They live in a bath of rain and salt and inevitably corrode inside, where the contacts are. New ones are $20, easy to change.

Third on my personal list of favorites is loose grounds or ancient corroded grounds or falling-apart grounds.

You don't have to be very smart to make these fixes, as I have proved.

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...5-Engine-Wiring-Upgrade-Part-1-Cockpit-Gauges
 
Last edited:

supersailor

Contributing Partner
Check your grounds. Ground faults are common. If the grounds are showing any signs of corrosion, they won't transmit enough current to spin the starter. Also check the battery connections, any fuzz there can cause the same problem. Di-electric grease is a wondrous thing to smear on everything. It stops the corrosion dead. The starter can work sometimes and not at others because more or less surface can make contact depending on how hot or cold the engine is. If the solenoid is clicking, it probably is still good. Check the voltage when you engage the starter. If it drops below 10 volts, you probably have a ground fault or a bad positive connection. I just had the ground fault thing happen on my diesel truck. Some sanding, contact cleaner, and di-electric grease and I was off and running again.
 
Last edited:

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Strong Currents

Check your grounds. Ground faults are common. If the grounds are showing any signs of corrosion, they won't transmit enough current to spin the starter. Also check the battery connections, any fuzz there can cause the same problem. Di-electric grease is a wondrous thing to smear on everything. It stops the corrosion dead. The starter can work sometimes and not at others because more or less surface can make contact depending on how hot or cold the engine is. If the solenoid is clicking, it probably is still good. Check the voltage when you engage the starter. If it drops below 10 volts, you probably have a ground fault or a bad positive connection. I just had the ground fault thing happen on my diesel truck. Some sanding, contact cleaner, and di-electric grease and I was off and running again.

Amen. Brother!
About every five years or so I take the large neg. cables off the stud on the bell housing and clean up all the contact points as Bob talked about. Can't say I have "fixed" anything yet... but given the slothful nature of 12 volt potential it just seems like a good idea. I recall many many decades ago when my (electrician) father would talk about the wiring in the old 6 volt automotive systems and how unreliable they were -- because there was just so little voltage to work with (well, that, and the questionable chassis grounding in those old cars).
I have also removed all the connectors from our engine panel, one wire at a time, and cleaned up the contacts and put them back. No immediate concern being addressed, but from reading of other sailor's low-voltage hassles for so many years, it is good to be sure that the current is flowing as best it can.

Loren
 
Last edited:

Rocinante33

Contributing Partner
On my starter there is a spade type connector for the hot wire. If you have that type, remove it, pinch the sides of the female end together with pliers and reinstall it. It improves the connection. It might help.

If none of these suggestions does the trick, automotive starter shops will rebuild it fairly reasonably, afaik.
 

Merrimist

Hammy, 'Merrimist' E38 in sunny Bda
G'day to all thoughtful and considered comments and replies, all very much appreciated.

My M40 starter problem continues, solenoid clicks but no turning of starter (no turning of engine), starter knocked on the head with a hammer, worked once, but not again.
All terminals from starter to batteries including start button have been removed, wire brushed and cleaned to ensure good contact. (exception of battery breaker switch, maybe the prob, but looks ok)

Even by passed the ignition circuit by shorting the starter with large screwdriver on live terminal to earth across the starter - nothing but a few sparks after several attempts.
I am thinking now, that the starter motor has after 30 odd years finally failed - 3 weeks into my ownership..........


So now I would like to ask this very helpful group on information of where I can purchase a new starter for a 30 year old, Universal M40, 32hp 4cyl diesel?
I have done a few google searches and am not actually 100% sure of the starter of which is fitted, 9 teeth or 11 teeth.....
So the next step is to remove the starter, with the use of extension bar, looks fairly straight forward, any tips or advice on this procedure welcome from those before me who have done this.

In the meantime, have been getting in some real world sailing on and off the pick experience.......... degree of difficulty is directly related to wind strength...........

And on a different subject, I would like to ask and invite comments from E38-200 owners about retro-fitting a fridge freezer into existing ice box. Brand and or type and size, current draw, air-cooled and or ease of fitting - am thinking I should start a new thread.......


Cheers from
'Merrimist' in Bermuda ongoing starter issue.....
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Several of us have had the original starter rebuilt, with good results. Took my guy 15 minutes, while I watched. Don't know how many greasy car mechanic shops you have in Hamilton, though....

Before ordering a new one, do confirm battery voltage is fully up to snuff.

(By all means start a new refrigerator thread. We don't seem to have a current one. Here's an old one... http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...efrigerator-drains-(2)house-batteries-E38-200 )
 
Last edited:

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
The starter bolt and nut (top one is on a stud) are accessible with some difficulty. The bolt underneath is harder to get to with a 14mm socket if there is a case drain on your starter. The drain gets in the way on mine. The assembly consists of a motor and a gear unit that come off together. The solenoid, if that's the problem, is in the gear unit. It could be the motor, brushes or something. Mine is 35+ years old after inspecting it, all was well and I put it back on after some cleanup. The spline end has a sealed bearing, visible in the picture. It may have been rebuilt by the PO, not sure. The spade connector for the solenoid could be corroded and should be scraped with a small screwdriver or something to shine it up.

I had the good fortune to have the cylinder head off, making the starter easier to access.

20160706_175743-small.jpg20160706_175724-small.jpg
20160708_184707-small.jpg
 
Last edited:

Merrimist

Hammy, 'Merrimist' E38 in sunny Bda
Universal M40 Starting issue cont.

G'day fellow E owners,

My engine no start problem continues. At this time I would like to ask if anyone out there has experienced my prob which I will describe.
The problem appears now to be electrical short as the voltage at the ignition key terminals is only 6VDC.
This voltage drops to just over 1Volt when ignition key turned to ignition on.
Regardless that the batt voltage is a tad over 13V.
The initial problem I posted I thought was an issue with the starter motor. Turns out the starter motor is good after removal strip and rebuild of starter, she works well.
Next in line was Batteries and terminals, batts are good and I have removed cleaned, wire brused all main power leads and terminals on both batts, breaker switch and most all wires and terminals at the back of the ignition panel.
This problem is intermittent and becoming quite frustrating.
The following actions carried out:
1. Batteries are good. Terminals are clean.
2. Starter motor good. Removed, dished up and test correct.
3. All 12v leads + & - terminals removed cleaned and replaced on batt breaker switch, batteries and ignition panel.
When 12 plus volts at ignition panel all is correct and engine turns, starts ok. Then runs ok. When intermittent prob is not occurring.

Intermittant Problem is when 12v plus at ignition panel, switch on key, oil light illuminated, fuel pump running. As soon as glow plug button is pushed, voltage drops so low, start cct voltage is to low for glow plug let alone engine crank. No start.

Can anybody te me where the 12 V pos power wire comes from to the glow plug button terminal. I am having difficulty tracing it back to batts.

Any suggestion welcome. This is keeping at the dock far to long.
 

Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
Can anybody te me where the 12 V pos power wire comes from to the glow plug button terminal. I am having difficulty tracing it back to batts.

The factory wiring to the glow plugs is a purple wire coming from the engine key switch. It also connects to the instruments and lights on the panel, the fuel pump and the alternator. The switch is a common failure point.

During the intermittent problem if it is a switch failure you can read a voltage drop across the two switch contacts. During normal operation there should be no more than a tenth of a volt across the contacts. With the switch off there should be 12 volts across the switch.

This assumes that you have 12 volts from the input side of the switch to ground when the problem occurs. If not, then the path from the switch back to the battery is the problem. The factory wiring goes through the ammeter back to the solenoid battery connection point (red #10 wire). Many people have changed this wiring for better performance.

Lots of people have had problems with the "trailer hitch" connectors in the engine harness, but generally not intermittent.
 

Glyn Judson

Moderator
Moderator
Intermittent voltage drop.

Dear friend, Something that hasn't come up as a potential culprit might be the master battery switch. Could it be that the inside contacts are burnt or corroded? Maybe a quick test would be to rapidly run the switch through all positions, back and forth several times to see if it clears up the problem. Good luck finding the problem. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey CA
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Hi,
Our engine had intermittent starting problems when our batteries became a bit old (15 years). The volt meter still showed good voltage at 12.8 or more, but couldn't turn the engine over, but at other times would do so without trouble. Each time the solenoid and fuel pump could be heard. When we replaced the batteries or problem never reoccured. I had previously cleaned and checked all connections.
Frank
 
Last edited:

GrandpaSteve

Sustaining Member
G'day fellow E owners,

My engine no start problem continues. At this time I would like to ask if anyone out there has experienced my prob which I will describe.
The problem appears now to be electrical short as the voltage at the ignition key terminals is only 6VDC.
This voltage drops to just over 1Volt when ignition key turned to ignition on.
Regardless that the batt voltage is a tad over 13V.
The initial problem I posted I thought was an issue with the starter motor. Turns out the starter motor is good after removal strip and rebuild of starter, she works well.
Next in line was Batteries and terminals, batts are good and I have removed cleaned, wire brused all main power leads and terminals on both batts, breaker switch and most all wires and terminals at the back of the ignition panel.
This problem is intermittent and becoming quite frustrating.
The following actions carried out:
1. Batteries are good. Terminals are clean.
2. Starter motor good. Removed, dished up and test correct.
3. All 12v leads + & - terminals removed cleaned and replaced on batt breaker switch, batteries and ignition panel.
When 12 plus volts at ignition panel all is correct and engine turns, starts ok. Then runs ok. When intermittent prob is not occurring.

Intermittant Problem is when 12v plus at ignition panel, switch on key, oil light illuminated, fuel pump running. As soon as glow plug button is pushed, voltage drops so low, start cct voltage is to low for glow plug let alone engine crank. No start.

Can anybody te me where the 12 V pos power wire comes from to the glow plug button terminal. I am having difficulty tracing it back to batts.

Any suggestion welcome. This is keeping at the dock far to long.

For me, replacing the old switches (Start, Glow and keyswitch) fixed the problem. I also did the recommend rewiring for the M25XP, but I am not sure how much of that applies to your engine panel and harness.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Tom Metzger is the guru on electrical stuff, and the issue may well be the wiring or the switch.

But I would confirm the batteries with a load test. They may give 12v, but do they actually hold a charge?

When I had problems like yours, on two boats, the eventual answer--after much highly intellectual and admirably logical troubleshooting--the answer was all new batteries.

Metzger and Maine Sail touch on that in this thread.

Failure to hold charge could mean the battery start the engine now, but not an hour later.

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...drometer-plus-potential-starter-motor-isssues
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
I actually had my battery tested and it passed on all factors. Yet it was at the root of my intermittent start problems. They were 15 years old, so not a surprise that they are done, but the battery shop tested and said they were ok.
Frank
 

Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
Intermittent Problem is when 12v plus at ignition panel, switch on key, oil light illuminated, fuel pump running. As soon as glow plug button is pushed, voltage drops so low, start cct voltage is to low for glow plug let alone engine crank. No start.


Merrimist - It is very hard to troubleshoot a problem remotely because the troubleshooter is never sure of the details of the tests. This leads me to a few questions:

You said that you have 13v on the battery. I am assuming this is while you are pressing the glow plug switch. Am I correct? This would mean that the battery is not the problem.

Where are you measuring the low voltage when you have pressed the glow plug switch while having the problem?

Do the circuits on the ships DC panel work when you press the GP switch while having the problem? Stereo? VHF? Cabin lights? If they do work, any of them, then the problem is with the engine circuitry.

When you are pushing the glow plug switch does the fuel pump continue to run? If it does the problem is most likely not the key switch. The way the panels were wired originally you had to hold the glow plug switch in while pressing the starter. The switches were wired in series and if the GP switch was bad the engine wouldn't start. A common problem. If your panel is wired this way an easy work around is to move the jumper between the two push button switches from it's existing terminal on the GP switch to the terminal with the purple wire. After doing this the starter will run without the glow plugs being energized. This is a very common modification and cannot cause a problem. A sure test that the GP switch is bad.

If the fuel pump stops measure the voltage on the ammeter to ground. The black wire on any of the meters is a good ground point. If this voltage remains at 12v probably the key switch is the problem. If the voltage drops then the problem is likely in the harness connectors if, as you said, all connections have been checked. I would disconnect and reconnect both of the trailer type connectors to see if that helps. If when apart the connectors look questionable I would get rid of them by butt splicing the wires together. The connectors are only intended for ease of installing the engine at the factory and have no other redeeming value.

I hope this helps.

BTW, several years ago I wrote a wire by wire explanation of how to make three easy wiring modifications to Universal diesel engines to improve their operation. For many years it was in the download section of this site, but got lost after the site crashed a while back. Christian has it on his blog, I think, but I would be happy to send it to you if you want it.
 
Top