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Asymetrical Spinnaker for 1986 38-200, and anchor?

Merrimist

Hammy, 'Merrimist' E38 in sunny Bda
G'day fellow E boat owners, I am new to this group being that I recently purchased a 1986 38-200 here in Bermuda.

I would like to ask about any information or experiences that other owners have had with regularly using asymmetrical spinnakers, for ex. bowsprit, is it a must, if so where could I purchase one of these - $? if not, what is would be the set up for the tack? A sock, a necessity to make flying and retrieving easier or more difficult? What size asymmetrical spinnaker, weight for light to medium airs 0.75oz?
I am seriously considering a asymmetrical spinnaker (Genniker more for reaching) but I would like to hear more about other owners experiences and or advice, specifically on hardware and boat set up.
places to purchase decent used sails and or bowsprit and other associated hardware on the East coast USA.

Look forward to informative replies or any banter that may have been experienced, both good practices and mistakes all pertinent comments welcomed.

Cheerio, from 'Merrimist' in sunny Bermuda.

Ps. On a separate question, what size anchor CQR (plough) and length of chain would be best recommended for my E 38-200?
 
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bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
other owners have had with regularly using asymmetrical spinnakers, for ex. bowsprit, is it a must, if so where could I purchase one of these - $? if not, what is would be the set up for the tack? A sock, a necessity to make flying and retrieving easier or more difficult? What size asymmetrical spinnaker, weight for light to medium airs 0.75oz?

Much of the answer is "it depends".

Many sailmakers have some flavor of "cruising spinnaker". It is often a general-purpose shape (eg, not great for running, not great for reaching, but usable for both), and often out of a heavy-ish sailcloth, using something in the 1.8oz range. They do this to make the sail as usable across as broad a set of conditions as possible. In general, the package they offer does not require a bowsprit, and has the option of a sock.

That one-size-fits-all approach usually means it isn't really great at anything. So a big part of the answer "depends" on what you want to do with a spinnaker.

I recently went through that process, because I wanted a spinnaker that would give me a choice (other than turning on the engine) when sailing downwind in Puget Sound in light winds. I ended up ordering a mid-size (165%) "running" spinnaker (called an "A2" shape in sailmaker-language) made out of a good-quality 0.6oz cloth (AirX). No bowsprit, I put a block on a bail at the front of my anchor-roller and run a tackline from there back to one of the bow cleats. I did get the ATN sock, and *love* it - I usually sail by myself, and the sock allows me to raise and lower the spinnaker by myself, with it "under control" the whole time.

Very happy with the way it fits *my* priorities. You'll have to decide what yours are - sailing conditions, performance vs. ease of use, etc - in order to find the solution that works best for you.

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e38 owner

Member III
I have a great used cruising assym for sale.
Used only a few times by Doyle
pm for more info.

I own a couple a chutes for the boat a full sym and the cruising assm. You cannot sail as deep with the assym and its good in about 5-15 knots wind.
 

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gadangit

Member III
G'day fellow E boat owners, I am new to this group being that I recently purchased a 1986 38-200 here in Bermuda.

I would like to ask about any information or experiences that other owners have had with regularly using asymmetrical spinnakers, for ex. bowsprit, is it a must, if so where could I purchase one of these - $? if not, what is would be the set up for the tack? A sock, a necessity to make flying and retrieving easier or more difficult? What size asymmetrical spinnaker, weight for light to medium airs 0.75oz?
I am seriously considering a asymmetrical spinnaker (Genniker more for reaching) but I would like to hear more about other owners experiences and or advice, specifically on hardware and boat set up.
places to purchase decent used sails and or bowsprit and other associated hardware on the East coast USA.

Look forward to informative replies or any banter that may have been experienced, both good practices and mistakes all pertinent comments welcomed.

Cheerio, from 'Merrimist' in sunny Bermuda.

Ps. On a separate question, what size anchor CQR (plough) and length of chain would be best recommended for my E 38-200?

I agree with everything Bgary said above. The difficulty with buying a used spinnaker is you don't know what wind angles and wind speed the spinnaker is cut for.

A sock is an absolute must if you are not a serious racer. We prove time and again that we are unserious racers, but no matter how many times I wrap the spinnaker around the forestay, mast and boom all at the same time, the sock just pulls it all back together. The yelling, flapping sails and waves crashing over the side go away right quick.

A block on the anchor roller for the tack, usually attached to a bail is all that is needed. For cruising, you could get away with a relatively short tack line, just cleat it on a bow cleat. We put a rope clutch on the deck next to the cockpit for our tack line. It speeds up the hoisting process, it also provides a last ditch effort to depower the spinnaker by opening the clutch. Just a thought for safety.

Spin sheets should be routed through blocks as far back on the boat on the toe rail as possible. It is usually a compromise to find a fair lead to a primary winch from there.

We are not out cruising, but I can say that my guess is I'd keep my sail plan pretty conservative. In other words, if the wind is up to the point that a 1.5oz cloth spinnaker is needed, I'm probably not going to put up a spinnaker. Taking that theory a bit further, if I only intend to get the boat moving when the wind is light and from the beam aft, then I'll need 3/4 oz cloth so the sail can fly. So don't think you need heavy cloth.

The attachment from UK sails shows the diagrams for wind angle and speed.

My two cents.

Chris


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bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
The attachment from UK sails shows the diagrams for wind angle and speed.

The diagram gadangit attached is really good.

For reference, the conditions I was targeting when I got my sail made are consistent with their "2A" plot: apparent wind angles (AWA) between 120 and 150 degrees, and apparent wind speed (AWS) of up to 10 knots (which works out to maybe 15 knots true wind speed if running). Their plot shows their 2A good up to 20 knots of apparent windspeed, but if I get that much breeze (or want to sail tighter angles), I'll be jib-reaching, not fussing with a spinnaker....
 
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Merrimist

Hammy, 'Merrimist' E38 in sunny Bda
Much of the answer is "it depends".

Many sailmakers have some flavor of "cruising spinnaker". It is often a general-purpose shape (eg, not great for running, not great for reaching, but usable for both), and often out of a heavy-ish sailcloth, using something in the 1.8oz range. They do this to make the sail as usable across as broad a set of conditions as possible. In general, the package they offer does not require a bowsprit, and has the option of a sock.

That one-size-fits-all approach usually means it isn't really great at anything. So a big part of the answer "depends" on what you want to do with a spinnaker.

I recently went through that process, because I wanted a spinnaker that would give me a choice (other than turning on the engine) when sailing downwind in Puget Sound in light winds. I ended up ordering a mid-size (165%) "running" spinnaker (called an "A2" shape in sailmaker-language) made out of a good-quality 0.6oz cloth (AirX). No bowsprit, I put a block on a bail at the front of my anchor-roller and run a tackline from there back to one of the bow cleats. I did get the ATN sock, and *love* it - I usually sail by myself, and the sock allows me to raise and lower the spinnaker by myself, with it "under control" the whole time.

Very happy with the way it fits *my* priorities. You'll have to decide what yours are - sailing conditions, performance vs. ease of use, etc - in order to find the solution that works best for you.

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bgary,

thank you for your informative reply, it is much appreciated and purpose and shape is understood.

I am of the opinion that I would sail similar to your notes above, taking that into account I am now thinking that an A2, 0.75oz cloth would be suitable for my purpose.

I also note that you mention you do not use or require a bow sprit, could you please describe your hardware set-up for the tack. Even better still, a picture is worth a thousand words as the saying goes. Could you forward a pic or two if you have available or if not a basic sketch showing your block on a bail with tack line run.
I would be investing in a sock also as I too like to keep things manageable so as to make easier to single hand.

Any recommendations of where I could source a reasonably priced A2 asymmetric with sock and hardware for my E38200 'Merrimist'?
I am traveling to Toronto next month, otherwise I need to have shipped in to Bermuda.

Your reply is appreciated, Hammy in sunny Bermuda.
 

Merrimist

Hammy, 'Merrimist' E38 in sunny Bda
I agree with everything Bgary said above. The difficulty with buying a used spinnaker is you don't know what wind angles and wind speed the spinnaker is cut for.

A sock is an absolute must if you are not a serious racer. We prove time and again that we are unserious racers, but no matter how many times I wrap the spinnaker around the forestay, mast and boom all at the same time, the sock just pulls it all back together. The yelling, flapping sails and waves crashing over the side go away right quick.

A block on the anchor roller for the tack, usually attached to a bail is all that is needed. For cruising, you could get away with a relatively short tack line, just cleat it on a bow cleat. We put a rope clutch on the deck next to the cockpit for our tack line. It speeds up the hoisting process, it also provides a last ditch effort to depower the spinnaker by opening the clutch. Just a thought for safety.

Spin sheets should be routed through blocks as far back on the boat on the toe rail as possible. It is usually a compromise to find a fair lead to a primary winch from there.

We are not out cruising, but I can say that my guess is I'd keep my sail plan pretty conservative. In other words, if the wind is up to the point that a 1.5oz cloth spinnaker is needed, I'm probably not going to put up a spinnaker. Taking that theory a bit further, if I only intend to get the boat moving when the wind is light and from the beam aft, then I'll need 3/4 oz cloth so the sail can fly. So don't think you need heavy cloth.

The attachment from UK sails shows the diagrams for wind angle and speed.

My two cents.

Chris


attachment.php

Hi Chris,

thank you for your reply. I have seen and taken note of the UK sails diagram and am now of the opinion a A2, 0.75 oz would suit my purpose.
I appreciate your conservative approach, I plan on Wed night summer series racing, more for the social then racing though.
Do you have any suggestions about names of sailmakers you could recommend or who could contact about me getting a quote for a asymmetric spinnaker with suitable sock to suit my 1986 E38-200?

Could you please send picture or explain to me about how the 'Tack' is secured? I am not familiar with the term 'bail', could you please explain?
In all honesty, I cannot picture the hardware - block and bail set up on anchor roller, rope clutch back near cockpit etc. Your comment about a clutch back at the cockpit for depowering and/or safety sounds like a great idea.
Could you forward pic or sketch to describe your successful/working tack set up showing block/bail/clutch and securing arrangements please it would be much appreciated.
Blocks far aft on the toe rail for sheets, am guessing that you would then try and lead back to simplest route to a winch.......

Thanks again for your reply, much appreciated,
Hammy in sunny Bermuda.
'Merrimist' 38-220
 

gadangit

Member III
Hi Chris,

thank you for your reply. I have seen and taken note of the UK sails diagram and am now of the opinion a A2, 0.75 oz would suit my purpose.
I appreciate your conservative approach, I plan on Wed night summer series racing, more for the social then racing though.
Do you have any suggestions about names of sailmakers you could recommend or who could contact about me getting a quote for a asymmetric spinnaker with suitable sock to suit my 1986 E38-200?

Could you please send picture or explain to me about how the 'Tack' is secured? I am not familiar with the term 'bail', could you please explain?
In all honesty, I cannot picture the hardware - block and bail set up on anchor roller, rope clutch back near cockpit etc. Your comment about a clutch back at the cockpit for depowering and/or safety sounds like a great idea.
Could you forward pic or sketch to describe your successful/working tack set up showing block/bail/clutch and securing arrangements please it would be much appreciated.
Blocks far aft on the toe rail for sheets, am guessing that you would then try and lead back to simplest route to a winch.......

Thanks again for your reply, much appreciated,
Hammy in sunny Bermuda.
'Merrimist' 38-220

Hello Hammy!
We use our local UK Sails loft. They actually make the sails right here in a traditional loft, so I like to support that. He has made my spinnaker and at least two E38 spinnakers recently, so he is very familiar with our boats (we have similar rig dimensions.) He also exports a lot of sails to S. America, so he is very well versed in the international shipping issues. And as a service to you, I'd be happy to fly to Bermuda to hand deliver for the small fee of a RT ticket! :) PM me your email and I'll connect you two.

This is a traditional anchor bail (the shiny hoop on top):
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This is our anchor roller, so not quite the same but the concept is. I had an extra hole drilled on our anchor roller set up, so I have a soft shackle holding the block. The block is held up with a bungie cord tied off up at the bow roller so it won't flop around when not used.
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Our tack is lead back to the cockpit with a fairlead attached to a stanchion base. The rope clutch is an easy reach for the helmsman to open the clutch or pull the tack line.
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As a bonus feature, this is our tweaker which doubles as a jib sheet lead changer. Clip the carrabiner onto the respective sheet and pull on the green line in the cockpit. We use it more often on the genoa when reaching than the spinnaker, we find the spin sheet self tweaks going under the boom.
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Our spin sheet blocks aren't all the way aft. We found that the sheet got in the way of the winch handle and the lead was always changed by the boom anyway.

Things got a little weird when putting in the pictures, so I'll just post this thing and see how it looks. I can't seem to get one picture inserted, perhaps there is a limit.
 

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PDX

Member III
I recommend paying particular attention to gbary's statement that his A-2 has a 165 foot. A-2 refers to the overall sail shape, and it means it is designed as a "runner." Other asymmetrical sail shapes, such as A-1, A-3, A-5 and Code 0, are reachers. Reachers commonly come with a shorter foot, often a 165. Unless you specify otherwise, a loft may assume you want a 180 foot with an A-2 runner. There is a significant difference between sail size and ease of handling, not to mention sailing, between a 165 and 180 foot spinnaker. My wife and I (we are both in our 60s) can double hand our 165 OK. We've run into trouble with our 180, in fact I won't fly it now unless we have at least one other able crew member aboard.

Another recommendation, assuming you're going to fly it from a block at the anchor roller, is to run the tack line all the way back to the cockpit where you can use a winch to adjust it. This is particularly true if you're going to single or double hand. If you have crew to spare, then it won't hurt to dead end the tack line up near the pulpit so long as you have some kind of purchase system to take it in. I don't recommend using a non-adjustable tack line. The tack is an important sail trim tool. On a reach (and the apparent wind can be up on the beam pretty easily with an asymmetrical) you need to get the tack down. Same if the wind starts going crazy and the spinnaker starts to oscillate. OTOH if you want to take advantage of the A-s's ability, with its big shoulders, to fill with air and fly to windward, you need to be able to ease the tack and let it ride high. The sail will then fly over to weather.
 

bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
could you please describe your hardware set-up for the tack. Even better still, a picture is worth a thousand words

My 32-III has the big bow fitting that combines the headstay tang, the tack hooks for headsails, and the anchor roller. The anchor roller is drilled for a pin to hold the anchor in place when it is there. I bought a "bail" (Schaefer #90-27, https://www.fisheriessupply.com/schaefer-marine-boom-bail-round-forged-90-27 ), squeezed it in a vice until it would fit between the sides of the anchor roller, drilled out the holes to match the existing 5/16" diameter pin, and pinned it in place.

IMG_2150s.jpg

Onto that bail I attach a small block, and run a tack-line from the spinnaker, through the block, to one of the bow cleats. I could just as easily run it back to the cockpit but I am sailing in "relax mode", not racing, and so far haven't felt the need to get too fussy about adjusting the tack line.

IMG_2147s.jpg

...and then at the back of the boat I put a block on a car at the very aft end of the outboard track. I use a block with a "becket" so that I can tie the block up, rather than having it bang on the deck or rub against the cockpit coaming.

IMG_2146sm.jpg

Hope that helps!

IMG_1962s.jpg

Bruce
 
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