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89' E34 I'll be going to see this week, curious what others think.

ofshore74

Member III
The four Ericsons I have looked at (and a multitude of other boats including CS and C&C) all had that unfinished scrap wood used to hold the bowels of the boat together. I don't think that is anything to be worried about. The sealant on the pedestal guard bolts on the underside is a sure sign of a lazy repair to stop leaking (that would never work). The plywood backing plate seems very small to take the load of the pedestal. And the skin on the underside of the cockpit seems pretty thin to resist upward forces. I would be inclined to cut a big piece of G10 to match the raised portion of the cockpit (at least the front half where the pedestal resides), glass it to the underside of the cockpit, and then heavily tab the edges of the G10 over that radius where the cracks are (the gutters in the cockpit). This should reinforce the raised portion of the cockpit and the gutters substantially, and give a good bearing surface for the pedestal and guard. I hope I explained that right.

What you describe makes total sense. And you're right, I wonder if the flexing is exacerbated by the short plywood riser, it's quite a bit of stuff sitting above it. But certainly the cracks must add to the flexing. Anyway I appreciate the idea.
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Those are Home Depot furring strips that appear to be supporting a headliner repair. Nothing structural involved, but it's not going to last forever, either. Especially as the leak that caused the original damage appears to still be present.

I see a few other odds and ends... well, odds, really from Home Depot in the other pictures... like the galvanized vent elbow.

Overall, some projects to do there, but nothing that many of us haven't dealt with before.

BTW: I saw an E35 listed in Portland that needs rescue, if anyone is still looking. They don't mention in the add what its "projects" are that cause the price to be so low... Oops! The listing seems to have dropped off Craigslist. I have a feeling that it will be back.
 

ofshore74

Member III
Thanks Toddster. One day I will pull the trigger on an Ericson, maybe soon? At which time my lungs might get filled with epoxy fumes and by body contorted to fit into tight places. Used boats need work! Minus the Home Depot part you mention, I'm sure it's all too common!
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Well, the question is whether Ericsons ever had a raised pedestal platform like this.

Anybody know?

Hard to interpret the photos.

Probably it's not what it looks like, which is that the cockpit sole was cut away and a platform built over it.

I have to say that the entire pedestal base and guard looks all wrong to me.

Guard feet that close to the base don;t seem to provide adequate support. A raised platform, unless very heavily reinforced, would contribute to lack of structural integrity. If those are machine screws through the base, they should be countersunk flush. If they are bolts--are they bolts? If hex heads, they look strange.

But--what do I know? It may be that, having had a YS pedestal break at sea, and having just entirely rewelded a second YS pedestal (which had crevice corrosion and a crack), I'm sorta sensitized to pedestal design.

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PDX

Member III
The four Ericsons I have looked at (and a multitude of other boats including CS and C&C) all had that unfinished scrap wood used to hold the bowels of the boat together. I don't think that is anything to be worried about. The sealant on the pedestal guard bolts on the underside is a sure sign of a lazy repair to stop leaking (that would never work). The plywood backing plate seems very small to take the load of the pedestal. And the skin on the underside of the cockpit seems pretty thin to resist upward forces. I would be inclined to cut a big piece of G10 to match the raised portion of the cockpit (at least the front half where the pedestal resides), glass it to the underside of the cockpit, and then heavily tab the edges of the G10 over that radius where the cracks are (the gutters in the cockpit). This should reinforce the raised portion of the cockpit and the gutters substantially, and give a good bearing surface for the pedestal and guard. I hope I explained that right.


I agree with this. Make sure the resin skin is sanded flat before epoxying the G10 piece to it. It is mat (rather than cloth which would have been a lot stronger) so getting it flush should be easy so long as you don't mind working on your back and getting sanding dust all over your face and the rear cabin. Also, careful you don't let epoxy drip down onto your face and head during the process. It burns.

One thing I would add is make sure those bolts are out and the balsa sandwich is inspected for rot. Often a darkened color will telegraph rot (not really evident from the pictures) but not always. In any case, rot or no rot, those bolt holes need to be cast and then redrilled so you will have something besides balsa core for the bolts to bear on. I suspect looser than should be bolts (perhaps exacerbated by caulk on the threads) has something to do with all that waggle.
 
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ofshore74

Member III
Well, the question is whether Ericsons ever had a raised pedestal platform like this.

Anybody know?

Hard to interpret the photos.


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Here are photos of an 87' E34 and an 88' from Yachtworld below -- designers clearly thought that this raised platform was the future. However with the way it was constructed I can imagine the keel kissing a rock and your face kissing the cockpit floor with the helm still in your hands! I have a funny feeling all 34's have this same wobble.

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ofshore74

Member III
I agree with this. Make sure the resin skin is sanded flat before epoxying the G10 piece to it. It is mat (rather than cloth which would have been a lot stronger) so getting it flush should be easy so long as you don't mind working on your back and getting sanding dust all over your face and the rear cabin. Also, careful you don't let epoxy drip down onto your face and head during the process. It burns.

One thing I would add is make sure those bolts are out and the balsa sandwich is inspected for rot. Often a darkened color will telegraph rot (not really evident from the pictures) but not always. In any case, rot or no rot, those bolt holes need to be cast and then redrilled so you will have something besides balsa core for the bolts to bear on. I suspect looser than should be bolts (perhaps exacerbated by caulk on the threads) has something to do with all that waggle.

Thanks for all the suggestions, it's good to hear how others might tackle this project. I wonder how you could add the tabbing around the edge as BigD14 suggests, is it simply heavily folded fiberglass roving? That would be my guess.
 

bigd14

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
That raised platform radius will be difficult to get fiberglass to lay over it without it pulling up and causing bubbles (and it will be hard to sand the existing surface!). I think I would first reinforce the radiused area with a layer or two of fiberglass tape, then use a larger layer of 1708 biaxial fiberglass mat to cover both the newly reinforced radius and the joint between the G10 and the radius tabbing. Here is a diagram of what I am thinking (I couldn't figure out how to get smooth corners on my diagram!)

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ofshore74

Member III
That raised platform radius will be difficult to get fiberglass to lay over it without it pulling up and causing bubbles (and it will be hard to sand the existing surface!). I think I would first reinforce the radiused area with a layer or two of fiberglass tape, then use a larger layer of 1708 biaxial fiberglass mat to cover both the newly reinforced radius and the joint between the G10 and the radius tabbing. Here is a diagram of what I am thinking (I couldn't figure out how to get smooth corners on my diagram!)

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Thanks BigD14 it's a great suggestion. From my observation under the cockpit deck I wouldn't think anything else would be compromised other than that raised section. So everything seems to point there. Will also get a quote from a yard later to see what the "effort-free" price is so if I wanted to pass GO and go straight to sailing, I at least have the option. But all these ideas are making me think it's not too overwhelming of a project. I've don't glassing before on a much smaller scale but I get it.
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Hmm... not my project, but my first thought was to glass in a couple of stringers. I don't necessarily understand the access issues though.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Thanks for all the suggestions, it's good to hear how others might tackle this project. I wonder how you could add the tabbing around the edge as BigD14 suggests, is it simply heavily folded fiberglass roving? That would be my guess.

I have used heavy roving, but many years ago I changed to bi-ax cloth. Double the strength over a corner. Wets out and stays put better than roving, IMHO.

You may still have to use a little home-made "former" (piece of wood wrapped with 1/4" foam, encased in plastic wrap) to really push the reinforcing cloth into an inside corner. As said, you want to get the air spaces/bubbles out.

Loren
 

PDX

Member III
That raised platform radius will be difficult to get fiberglass to lay over it without it pulling up and causing bubbles (and it will be hard to sand the existing surface!). I think I would first reinforce the radiused area with a layer or two of fiberglass tape, then use a larger layer of 1708 biaxial fiberglass mat to cover both the newly reinforced radius and the joint between the G10 and the radius tabbing. Here is a diagram of what I am thinking (I couldn't figure out how to get smooth corners on my diagram!)

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Essentially that is what I would do with some modifications. Steps would be:

1. Cut the G10 piece to size and then epoxy it to the area as shown. Let it go off for a day before proceeding further.

2. After sanding the radiused area shown in Doug's diagram as best you can, fillet the edge. You can use any type of thickened resin but I would use vinylester for everything except gluing the G10 in because it is a lot easier than epoxy. Put a curve in the fillet using a dixie cup spoon or the back of a plastic spoon.

3. After the fillet has gone off (same day if using polyester or vinylester) glass in two layers of 10 oz cloth as shown in Doug's diagram. Two layers can be done in sequence w/o waiting for the first one to go off. If the lower edge is sharp angled you will need to round it with sandpaper or a grinder to get the cloth to drape over it right.

4. Next day glass over the G10 piece, as shown in Doug's diagram, but I wouldn't use biax mat because it soaks up lots of resin, is heavy, and gravity is not your friend on the underside of a horizontal surface. Biax cloth (two layers of cloth laid at a 45 or 90 degree angle) is available w/o the mat layer and uses less than half the resin. If you are determined to use the biax mat, make sure you apply it with the cloth side up (touching the G10), mat side down. Mat is easier to sand if you desire a smooth finished effect and cloth is a lot better at sticking to the under side of a horizontal surface.
 

Jason G

Member II
Are you SURE what you think is wobble in the steering pedestal isn't just the binnacle moving inside the upper support casting of the pedestal? It's not a super tight fit between the 1" stainless tube and the aluminum casting. The raised cockpit is stock on all 34-2's and there's nothing wrong structurally with the design. The base mounts for the binnacle are plenty strong as well. The entire setup is not intended to be a jungle gym to swing on. Try pushing and pulling on the wheel instead of the binnacle and see what the floor does. Remember that if it doesn't flex it frets, leaks, or breaks. A little flexing of the entire assembly is good. The spokes of the wheel provide considerable flex on the wheel when pushed for/aft before the pedastal moves.



-Jason
 

ofshore74

Member III
Are you SURE what you think is wobble in the steering pedestal isn't just the binnacle moving inside the upper support casting of the pedestal? It's not a super tight fit between the 1" stainless tube and the aluminum casting. The raised cockpit is stock on all 34-2's and there's nothing wrong structurally with the design. The base mounts for the binnacle are plenty strong as well. The entire setup is not intended to be a jungle gym to swing on. Try pushing and pulling on the wheel instead of the binnacle and see what the floor does. Remember that if it doesn't flex it frets, leaks, or breaks. A little flexing of the entire assembly is good. The spokes of the wheel provide considerable flex on the wheel when pushed for/aft before the pedastal moves.
-Jason

I agree with having some flex at the helm and rock solid with no movement isn't good either however hairline cracks around the perimeter where water routes to the two rear drains of the raised cockpit deck, mean that the flexing has spread to the entire area enough to move it. And if you look closely at the video from the deck level it's a pretty obvious thing. My hope is that if/when I survey this the recommendation is to add a wider base to the underside of the Edson helm.

The cockpit locker however is another story, if it is saturated which it appears to be on either side, a tight space fix to replace/fill the core is around $6000 (rough estimate from the yard will be sending photos and getting a more accurate number this week so I know what I'd be getting into.
 

ofshore74

Member III
Essentially that is what I would do with some modifications. Steps would be:

1. Cut the G10 piece to size and then epoxy it to the area as shown. Let it go off for a day before proceeding further.

2. After sanding the radiused area shown in Doug's diagram as best you can, fillet the edge. You can use any type of thickened resin but I would use vinylester for everything except gluing the G10 in because it is a lot easier than epoxy. Put a curve in the fillet using a dixie cup spoon or the back of a plastic spoon.

3. After the fillet has gone off (same day if using polyester or vinylester) glass in two layers of 10 oz cloth as shown in Doug's diagram. Two layers can be done in sequence w/o waiting for the first one to go off. If the lower edge is sharp angled you will need to round it with sandpaper or a grinder to get the cloth to drape over it right.

4. Next day glass over the G10 piece, as shown in Doug's diagram, but I wouldn't use biax mat because it soaks up lots of resin, is heavy, and gravity is not your friend on the underside of a horizontal surface. Biax cloth (two layers of cloth laid at a 45 or 90 degree angle) is available w/o the mat layer and uses less than half the resin. If you are determined to use the biax mat, make sure you apply it with the cloth side up (touching the G10), mat side down. Mat is easier to sand if you desire a smooth finished effect and cloth is a lot better at sticking to the under side of a horizontal surface.

Thanks for all the suggestions it's really helpful.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
In a heavy sea the helmsman has only the wheel for support against pitching and lateral forces. He may be joined by a couple of 200-pound crewmen, thrown off balance and grabbing the same pedestal guard for support, simultaneously.

If a pedestal isn't rock solid, it isn't rock solid. They are problematic to repair at sea. In the Fastnet race on Tenacious our navigator was thrown into the wheel, bending it severely and sustainign injury. It kept him aboard, though. I broke a pedestal off at the base, myself, by failing to use appropriate welds.

Much is made of rudders and aux rudders and spare rudders and emergency tillers. Much should also be made of pedestal integrity.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
In a heavy sea the helmsman has only the wheel for support against pitching and lateral forces. He may be joined by a couple of 200-pound crewmen, thrown off balance and grabbing the same pedestal guard for support, simultaneously.

If a pedestal isn't rock solid, it isn't rock solid. They are problematic to repair at sea. In the Fastnet race on Tenacious our navigator was thrown into the wheel, bending it severely and sustainign injury. It kept him aboard, though. I broke a pedestal off at the base, myself, by failing to use appropriate welds.

Much is made of rudders and aux rudders and spare rudders and emergency tillers. Much should also be made of pedestal integrity.

"Plus One" as they say on the internet.

I have a fraction of Christian's time at sea, but can verify that when I entered the ocean @ the Columbia bar, a couple of years ago, heading north, I had a Very Firm Grip on that wheel. We spent about an hour going "up 8, down 9, 7 to the left (or right), rinse lightly, and repeat"...
The boat was totally indifferent to the stresses. We all hung on pretty tight, tho.

Yup, the wheel and guard base better be strong.

Loren
 
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ofshore74

Member III
In a heavy sea the helmsman has only the wheel for support against pitching and lateral forces. He may be joined by a couple of 200-pound crewmen, thrown off balance and grabbing the same pedestal guard for support, simultaneously.

If a pedestal isn't rock solid, it isn't rock solid. They are problematic to repair at sea. In the Fastnet race on Tenacious our navigator was thrown into the wheel, bending it severely and sustainign injury. It kept him aboard, though. I broke a pedestal off at the base, myself, by failing to use appropriate welds.

Much is made of rudders and aux rudders and spare rudders and emergency tillers. Much should also be made of pedestal integrity.

Well when you put it that way I'm all for rock solid helms!
 

ofshore74

Member III
"Plus One" as they say on the internet.

I have a fraction of Christian's time at sea, but can verify that when I entered the ocean @ the Columbia bar, a couple of years ago, heading north, I had a Very Firm Grip on that wheel. We spent about an hour going "up 8, down 9, 7 to the left (or right), rinse lightly, and repeat"...
The boat was totally indifferent to the stresses. We all hung on pretty tight, tho.

Yup, the wheel and guard base better be strong.

Loren

I totally get it. Guess I'll see what the verdict is once a surveyor gets involved, I don't want anything flimsy especially in big waves.
 

Teranodon

Member III
...

Helm flexes at the cockpit deck:
Took some video to demonstrate in the link below, basically if I grab the hand-hold at the top of the helm and push fore and aft, it flexes the fiberglass cockpit sole.

...

I’ve been locked in a cruel struggle with my Edson pedestal for the better part of a week (see my recent posting in the M&M forum) so I’d like to chime in here.


On my 1988 E34, the raised cockpit floor is very solid. It’s about 1 1/4 inches thick, and half of that is plywood. You can see that in the photo, where the bronze plate that backs the pedestal (and holds the steering sheaves) has been removed. The other photo shows the corner area. It’s heavily reinforced.


I suppose it is possible that there is structural damage and/or a rotten core problem, but maybe the four bolts that hold down the pedestal are loose, or the bedding material around the base has deteriorated. Is the deck really flexing? I can’t tell from the videos.


Let me warn you about those 1/2-13 bolts. They are made of aluminum and, if they are at all corroded, will break if you try to turn the nuts. That’s what happened to me and I had to drill them out from the top. Unpleasant job. Stupidly, the hex heads are captured in the pedestal base casting, so you can’t grab them with a wrench or use a screw extractor. I assume that Edson chose aluminum to avoid interference with the compass. Anyway - beware!


BTW, if you are considering the boat in Blaine, I would say that the asking price is about right (assuming they will come down 10%). I would drop and retrieve the full length of the anchor rode with that windlass (a couple of times at least), and also run he heater for a while. The engine hours are VERY low, which could be good or bad, depending.

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