Main Sail Halyard Retrieval

In anticipation of replacing my main halyard last fall, I removed the old one replacing it with a messenger line. Fast forward to this spring. In a momentary lapse of attention and stupidity, I inadvertently pulled the messenger line through the mast rendering it ineffective. Here's what I've attempted thus far to no avail:

1. Dropped another messenger line from top to bottom. Result- line met with resistance inside mast presumably from other halyards.

2. Ran fish tape from top of mast. Result- fish tape jambed at top of mast.

My next solution would be to remove all halyards (replacing with messenger lines) then again, run a weighted messenger line top to bottom. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Also feel free to fire off insults I may have not covered. I deserve it.

Thanks,

Ed

Additional information

Boat is an Olson 911se. All halyards ( jib, spin #1, spin #2 and topping lift) run inside at base exiting aloft.

Ed Valente said:

Boat is an Olson 911se. All halyards ( jib, spin #1, spin #2 and topping lift) run inside at base exiting aloft.

Click to expand...

Ouch. :0
Your dilemma illustrates why I have a fear of losing a halyard inside our mast. (Four halyards and a topping lift -- lots of lines in there.)
There is probably also a pvc tube carrying wiring. And then there are internal supports for two sets of spreaders.
Yikes.

Kind of a long shot, but you might try a contact with Buzz Ballenger in California. As a professional spar builder for Olson's and Ericson's he might know some helpful trivia. Perhaps, maybe.

Wish I could be more helpful.

Loren

ps: is the mast vertical at this time? i.e. stepped?

Halyard retrieval

Thanks for you're reply Loren. Yes, the mast is vertical

Ed

Been there, done that, fixed it (sorta)...

To add a bit of spice to the mix...

...while in a rush to prep to unstep the mast the fall of '14, I skied the messenger line for the starboard spin halyard. Strike 1. Fast forward to spring of '15. Skied the messenger line for the main halyard during the mast step, a knot poorly tied, not taped, let go. Strike 2. Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot!

Once the mast was tuned, up elevator with crew assistance to the top of the mast, at which time another messenger line was dropped (twice) with a 6" string of 1/4-20 nuts attached to the end. Main halyard captured easily, once the exit cover plate was removed. The spin halyard not so easy, a bit of miscommunication occurred with the crew on deck, who snagged the messenger line but NOT the 6" row of 1/4-20 nuts, which in retrospect was lowered well past the exit opening. The nuts had become snagged on something within the mast. "Nuts!" was the call, they were left hanging, all appeared to be in order. Halyards all better, lets go sailing!

This "all better" condition was shown not to be the case, in an eloquent and irritating twist of fate, as the nuts revealed themselves the evening of our 1st night race that summer, with the nuts ringing rhythmically against the mast with each roll of the boat; ding, dong, ding, dong. Maddening, especially for the crew sleeping on the settees with ears less than 3' away.

Eventually, necessity and frustration being the mother of creativity, the offending nuts were snagged from the very small tang opening that secures the turnbuckle that keeps the deck from being ripped off by upward pull of the mast collar & halyards. Every single stinking nut came through that opening...but not all the messenger line. There's a tail-end inside that mast, somewhere, still snagged on something. But the silence is golden...

2 strikes, self inflicted, each due to haste. Dumb.

Feel better? Hope so.

Long-ago rigger tricks

No guarantees, but some things you can try

-- find some nylon "mason's line" - the stuff you'd hang a plumb-bob from while building a wall. I don't know why it works better than tagline, but... it does.

http://www.amazon.com/MARSHALLTOWN-..._UL160_SR160,160_&refRID=0EMHFAQCV2H8QBVY6TX9

-- tie a short (3-6") length of bicycle chain to the end. If you can't find a piece of bike-chain, tie a series of small "egg" fishing weights to the end. Maybe 4-5 of them, with a knot in between each one. Basically you want a heavy "centipede" that will pull the string down without hanging up on things.

-- pull all the other halyards as tight as you can get them. Like... winch-tight.

-- Go aloft and lower your string *outside* the mast until it is a little past the exit-box you want it to come out of. mark the string (or tie a small knot) at the height of the sheave.

-- pull it back up and feed your "centipede" over the top of the sheave. Now, here's the trick - once the centipede is past the sheave and into the spar itself, you want to heel the boat toward the side that you want the halyard to come out on. In other words, if the exit-box for the main halyard is on the starboard side of the mast, you want to heel the boat to starboard. Have a couple of friends stand on the rail if you can.

-- ideally, you should be able to hear the centipede sliding down the inside wall of the spar as you lower it. When you reach the mark you made on the string, it "should" be at the level of the exit box. A helper on deck should be able to fish it out using a section of wire coat hanger with a "J" bent into the end. Sometimes useful to lower it a little further than you need to so that your helped can see it through another exit-box, and "steer" it toward the exit you want it to come out of.

Be patient, the main things are to keep other halyards tight, and keep the centipede against the inside wall of the spar - best ways to keep it from wrapping around halyards or wiring.

Hope that helps. Good luck...
Bruce

Ed,

If it makes you feel any better, I did the same thing last fall with my Jib halyard. I replace my halyards with messenger lines also. I pulled the Jib up into the mast it then came out and flopped on the deck. I wasn't comfortable going up the mast with the boat on stands- I got about halfway and it became apparent the boat was not level. The boat went in the water a few days ago and I'll try it next weekend. I was going to try something light like kite string or fishing line with a weight on the end to pull the messenger line and then the halyard. I was going to use a few small nuts as a weight. I think messenger line may be too heavy relative to the weight to drop down the mast. Make sure the other halyards are tight.

Perhaps a "plan c"

Some good ideas coming out so far. Empathy is good thing too!
So I sent the thread to a friend who does a lot of rigging work for many decades and darned if he did not come back with an alternative suggestion.
I had not even thought about using another internal halyard to piggyback a new tag line.
I would envision this with someone sitting at the top, having been hauled up on another halyard (good thing there are several other halyards).
Someone at the base to tend line and maybe someone to assist that person.

Anyhow, here is the text of the idea:
He suggested that he should use another mast head halyard. JIB halyard… assuming that it goes to the top.
so. Attach a line to the shackle end of the halyard pull the halyard (shackle end) up to the top of the mast, so there is a lot of line at the base of the mast ( the Jib halyard) at the base of the Mast. attach a tag line to he Jib Halyard at the base of the mast and pull it up to the top of the Mast by pulling the Jib shackle back down. You may have to reach through the shives to align the lines prior to raising the new tag line to the top of the mast. Depends on how tangled things are.

**I can imagine that dealing with the seized-on new tag line at the top by reaching around the sheave would be difficult. Quite fiddly work for the guy/gal perched at the top in the bosun's chair.

Best of luck,
Loren

ps: edit, from a prior thread: a way to make the halyard easier to remove and replace:
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?11794-Messenger-Line-How-To-s

Very useful thread.

Let me add that a popular cause of (other) similar issues is the use of duct tape to connect lines together. They must always be whipped and looped, then maybe plastic tape to smooth the transition. Kite string or any shortcut here can mean disaster, as I have demonstrated several times. .

Loren Beach said:

using another internal halyard to piggyback a new tag line.

Click to expand...

This can work. It's somewhat easier if you do it with messenger lines rather than a halyard, makes it less of a challenge to navigate things through sheaves and exit boxes.

The approach would be
-- connect a long messenger to a halyard and pull it up and through
-- at the masthead, fish a loop of the messenger out from through the sheave you want the new halyard to go through
-- tie a second messenger in at that loop
-- pull the messenger back down
-- fish the second messenger through the correct exit box and disconnect

You should now have two messenger lines - the original halyard, routed as before, and a new messenger through the correct sheave and exit box

The challenge to doing it this way (either with halyard or messenger) is that you have no control over how much the two lines curl around each other inside the spar. It can "help" to keep everything under tension as you pull the two messengers down, but... lines do have a way of wrapping around each other, given a chance.

ymmv.

The direct approach

Ed,

I inadvertently pulled a Spin halyard completely out of the mast one year. Same setup as your mast. I was able to drop the halyard tail over the sheave and into the mast at the masthead and a buddy fished it out of the exit in around 10 minutes. No messenger lines or extra steps. My exits are 5 feet or more off the deck, so its easy to see in and work there.

Mark

What kind of "fish tape" did you use? "Fish tape" suggests the flat metal stuff on a reel. This has its limitations.

Home Depot sells thin fiberglass rods in a tube that you screw together - I was surprised at how stiff the resulting construction was. Might be worth a try.

I see Harbor Freight sells them too. They're referred to as "fish sticks" from other stores - ha, ha. At 33 feet for $10 you don't have much to lose.

http://t.harborfreight.com/3-16-inch-x-33-ft-fiberglass-wire-running-kit-65326.html

Halyard

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll return to the boat Saturday armed with chain and plenty of messenger line. Hopefully, the third attempt will be the charm. I'll keep you posted. The last attempt was with plastic fish tape. Couldn't make the turn around the sheave

The old fashion method

In the old days, we would drop a few feet of bicycle chain and a new messenger line. Of course you have to crank a person up the mast, the drop the chain and line, fish it will a wire coat hanger.
Rick

Got mine done. Dropped some mason string with some small nuts as weights. We were able to snag it with a coat hanger on the deck. I then used the mason string to pull a stronger messenger line and then the messenger line to pull the halyard. The only thing I would do different next time is to drop the line down outside the mast to the level of the opening in the mast and tie a knot so you can judge how far down the mast to lower it.

Mission Accomplished

Thanks for all the suggestions. The bicycle chain trick was worth it's weight in the cost of a professional rigger. Dropped about 2.5 feet of chain attached to a line. It was initially a little tricky feeding the first length of chain over the sheave. However, to combat this, I wrapped the first four links with rigging tape making the chain ridgid enough feed. Great to have a main again.

Ed

Bike chain

Sometimes the old methods just works well.
Rick

Another Olde Mast Wiring Trick

Kite string fed from the top of a mast light fixture, (or possibly a halyard sheve), while a Shop Vac is used at a mast base hole, plugging other mast holes works.
Never used it for internal halyards, but have for electrical wire messenger lines.

I like the bike chain trick, but also get a thin, plastic coated magnet. You need one thin enough to insert through the exit hole. Stick the magnet in the hole and grab the chain as it is dropped down the mast. Voila.

One more trick!
I,ve run plenty of Halyards as a rigger and believe my favorite method to be this. Of course with the stick up you must go up the mast

Mason line tied off to metal pull chain (light fixture chain , long)
Heel the boat a bit to the side you wish it to exit.
Small flexi head magnet. they are 10-20" long and hold whatever shape you put in them.
pick up the chain.
Bike chain works well however it only articulates in a single direction and is a bit bulky for my rigging bag.

Last trick. With rare earth (powerful magnets) you can pick up a chain and drag it with the magnet on the outside of the spar as the chain follows on the interior. this has saved my bacon particularly with booms. Put some soft tape o the face of the magnet so as not to scratch / mark the surface.

Glad you got it handled!

Capt. Ian