Oil in coolant?

I went to the boat this morning to remove the heat exchanger for cleaning (calcium deposits) and when I loosened the first coolant hose some black oily stuff appeared. I stopped and took off the coolant fill cap and there was a black layer of oil on the coolant. The crankcase was down a half quart, where I usually run it, and the oil was as black as usual. No brown milky color to the oil.

The first marine engine place I called had no clue why this should be and suggested I flush the cooling system and start troubleshooting with compression checks, etc. I will call a few more engine places and post some more later. But, I thought it would be good to get this on the board. I couldn't find any relevant threads here.

I have the 5432 Universal diesel. About 1900 hours on the meter. I last ran the engine for about 20-30 minutes about 2 weeks ago.

I was referred to a local yard manager with lots of small diesel engine experience. He didn't recommend any troubleshooting. If there is oil in the coolant, then there is a problem that will require cylinder head removal, at the very least, and all the attendant labor and expenses to put it back together. The problem could be a cracked head or a bad head gasket (more likely). That is assuming there is nothing else wrong when the head, valves and block when they are inspected. It might be time to re-power with new rather than repair.

footrope said:

I was referred to a local yard manager with lots of small diesel engine experience. He didn't recommend any troubleshooting. If there is oil in the coolant, then there is a problem that will require cylinder head removal, at the very least, and all the attendant labor and expenses to put it back together. The problem could be a cracked head or a bad head gasket (more likely). That is assuming there is nothing else wrong when the head, valves and block when they are inspected. It might be time to re-power with new rather than repair.

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Wow. Not what you want to be faced with as the summer cruising season gets under way.
Not many hours on your engine, either.

By comparison, we have about 2200 hours on our 1988 M25XP. Everyone's financial and life planning situation is different, but we have long decided that if faced with a major repair of our "old" engine, we will opt to instead put the money towards a new Betamarine diesel, and get a whole new drive train with a stated three year "diy" warranty.

Let us know what you find out further and what you decide to do.

Regards,
Loren

Loren Beach said:

Wow. Not what you want to be faced with as the summer cruising season gets under way.
Not many hours on your engine, either.

By comparison, we have about 2200 hours on our 1988 M25XP. Everyone's financial and life planning situation is different, but we have long decided that if faced with a major repair of our "old" engine, we will opt to instead put the money towards a new Betamarine diesel, and get a whole new drive train with a stated three year "diy" warranty.

Let us know what you find out further and what you decide to do.

Regards,
Loren

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That's my exact plan if I ever develop any motor troubles as well. I have even gone as far as to measure for a beta engine to make sure it would be a good fit. my Westerbeke only has 900 hrs on it since rebuild so I'm not expecting any issues, but ya never know about those kinds of things. The plan came together while I was doing research on replacing my hurth hbw50, again not because it has ever given me troubles, but because it is original and they don't last forever. I wanted a plan for replacement if ever needed to match any possible future engine upgrade.

Keep us posted on your progress Footrope. And hopefully you still get a decent sailing season in spite of the engine troubles.

I have removed a few heads over the years. its not a hard job. You might be able to pull it yourself and bring it to your mechanic, and save a few bucks off your mechanics hourly rate.

Pull the engine. As I sit hear thinking about breaking a head bolt loose in the confines of the vessel, I feel a sense of defeatism before even starting. Those bolts are torqued very high, 90 foot pounds or more if memory serves. Then, although unlikely unless this started from initial overheating event, you could go thru the trouble only to find the problem still exists due to a cracked block, no way to check that except to magnaflux the block once disassembled. Pull it. Whether or not to replace it is an individual call. Best of luck. I'll try to find head bolt torque values for these smaller engines unless someone here already knows them. That might change minds as to how to best proceed. With plenty of clearance, it's not a difficult job. But remember, the engine has a closed coolant system, that depends on pressure as much as coolant to function. Could have started as a bad gasket yet cracked the head or block as secondary damage due to poor pressure. Not too likely though if there is no coolant in the oil.

43-47 foot pounds on the head bolts for M 25. Not too bad, I would consider changing the head gasket myself without pulling the engine at those specs. If that fixes problem, great, if not then likely bad news. Best of luck!

saw this for whats its worth Head gasket test kit frpm napa

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHp5E7XnbXo
Head gasket test kit frpm napa

Thanks for the comments and suggestions

All your comments were very helpful. Right now, the plan is:

Early next week I'll find out when a mechanic can come down and pull the head with me. Less frustration for me if this gets done right.
We'll evaluate the cylinders, block and head.
If the block and cylinders look ok then we'll send the head out for a more detailed inspection.
If the head is OK then we'll get it refurbished and reinstalled and see if we can get a few more years out of it.

There are two drivers for this approach, cost and schedule. I have family coming in June and then a long cruise planned later in July and August.
The engine hardly used a quart of oil in three weeks of daily use during our cruise last season, so I'm willing to spend a little to see if the Universal is worth keeping.

oil on the water

Hi Craig, If you want, I can check with a friend and see if he still has the unused M40 he had last year...
Hope it doesn't come to that.
Harold, Mischief Maker

hodo said:

Hi Craig, If you want, I can check with a friend and see if he still has the unused M40 he had last year...
Hope it doesn't come to that.
Harold, Mischief Maker

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Yes, please check to see if it is available and what condition it's in. A re-power with the same basic engine would be somewhat easier to do than with a more modern engine. Thanks.

I was looking at the head and exhaust manifold yesterday. Is there a way for oil to migrate from the head to the manifold through a gasket or a bolt hole on the left side of the engine?

I am also going to have an oil sample analysis to see if there is anything going on with bearings.

Thanks.

Looking at the engine parts document, it looks like oil could be introduced to the coolant if the Gear Case gasket is blown at the top where the coolant water pump housing is located. I need to take a look at the engine in that area. There is also a water pipe and an o-ring in the area. Pressurizing the cooling system might be a good test if this theory before taking off the gear case.

I don't see any way the exhaust manifold gets oil from the head unless there is a crack.

Gear case port?

Do any of the diesel mechanics on the board know if the small hole in the gear case is to show when there is a leak of coolant (and/or oil?) from the area inside the gear case? See the attached picture. I can poke a thin screwdriver through the hole all the way to the block. According to the part breakdown there is a water pipe that comes into the gear case from the block just above and to the right of the hole. There apparently is a passage for coolant from there, diagonally down and to the right, where there is an elbow coming out of the case. From the elbow there is a 7/8" coolant hose that goes aft to the heat exchanger. In the area of the pipe at the top, I think the water pump picks up some coolant to run it through the thermostat.

The two diagrams seem to show that the water pipe is in an area where the gear case and its gasket keep oil out of the cavity around the pipe. That gasket would also keep coolant out of the oil if the pipe leaked.

It looks like it would be more complicated to pull the gear case than the head. So if the hole is for seepage in case of an internal leak, then a dry cavity/hole is good? Update: 8/11/2016 There is a very interesting "Oil in Coolant" video on oragnetractortalks dot com that addresses the possible sources of this problem. It deals with a three cylinder Kubota diesel of similar vintage to the 80's Universal engines. In the video, the back of the gear case was shown and he hole pointed out in this post can be seen in the casting of the case.

Thanks for any insight you can provide.

Oil on the Water

Hi Craig, any updates on the oil in the cooling system? In order for the oil to get into the cooling system, it would have to overcome the cooling system pressure. That motor is available, if needed, I'll contact you over e mail if you need the info.

Harold

Thanks for checking and getting back to me Harold. For now I don't know whether I'll need it. Unless it is disassembled, it can't answer any questions. I'm glad to know it is an option.

Update:

No engine places are really calling me back, except Gallery Marine in Seattle, and they are only researching parts for me. Everyone is busy this spring and getting on a schedule means waiting a while. I am pressing on carefully. The head gasket quote was $181.00. A full set of gaskets necessary for head re-installation looks like under $500 through them. I talked to a nice guy at CSR in Des Moines and he felt that the hole in the gear case is to alert for leaks, particularly coolant leaks, but he couldn't be sure. I am not ready to shell out $200 an hour for mobile engine service.

[Real life interferes with troubleshooting progress]
I sent in an oil sample. No response yet. I had a problem with my ancient oil change pump, a Qwik Drain 112, so I worked on it a little. It's obsolete. Got it working, but it needs more TLC to survive. 55 cents for a gasket so far. When I drained the oil there was no water or coolant evident, but the engine sits at an angle, so small amounts might be stuck inside.

I have removed the valve cover and it and the valve train are pretty clean. Not much dirt or residue up there at all, which surprised me after doing valve adjustments on car engines. Clean air I guess. The breather is clear. I got some advice on removing the rocker arm shaft assembly. It can be done in one piece as long as I loosen the nuts evenly. Don't want to bend the shaft.

When I pull the pushrods will the tappets come with them? Update 8/11/2016: This question is answered in a subsequent reply, but the answer is "no." The tappets can't be removed until the head is removed.

Yesterday I pressurized the cooling system with a hand pump and it held pressure surprisingly well. I plugged one heat exchanger hose and pressurized through the other. I didn't plumb in a gauge, but after 20+ minutes, there was still some pressure when I loosened the 'radiator' cap. After 10 minutes it seemed hardly down at all vs when I immediately relieved it. So, I paused overnight to make sure my test was valid. I think it is. The thermostat is still in, but they aren't typically air tight. My guess is that the issue would show up if I pressurized the oil system to a higher pressure. Can't really do that unless I run the engine. Update 8/11/2016: With the benefit of hindsight, this leak test is best done with a cooling system tester that replaces the radiator cap and includes a gauge. Any leakage indicates a problem somewhere.

Later today, I should be collecting my penetrating oils and WD-40 to go back and start loosening the head nuts and bolts. I don't think I can learn anything with a compression check. I can also check the cylinders, block and the top of the pistons visually for problems. I will have the head tested for cracks and valve problems, to see if reconditioning is necessary. I already talked to the shop and they can definitely work on the Universals. I will have to remove the injectors and get them checked and reconditioned as necessary.

Craig, the tappets will remain in the block. Twist the push rods a little to help relieve the light suction between the rod and lifter. You can call Jennings Equip. in Puyallup for parts for that motor. Less $ than Gallery. It is a Kabota motor. Seattle Injector for Injector work. I believe that hole is for indicating a coolant leak. Your trans isn't water cooled, is it?
Harold

Hi Craig. The motor engine is a V1501 Kubota. Good luck.

hodo said:

Craig, the tappets will remain in the block. Twist the push rods a little to help relieve the light suction between the rod and lifter. You can call Jennings Equip. in Puyallup for parts for that motor. Less $ than Gallery. It is a Kabota motor. Seattle Injector for Injector work. I believe that hole is for indicating a coolant leak. Your trans isn't water cooled, is it?
Harold

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Thanks! I have seen Jennings pop up in my searches, but when I was looking for someone to come to the boat, I was concentrating on Seattle suppliers. I will call and see what they say. I have a significant parts list just for the gaskets I'll need. I'll also look up Seattle Injector. I haven't found anyone in the Renton-Kent-Auburn valley who is into Kubota much. Thanks for the Kubota V1501 designation, I had found that in some links Rob T. put up a few years ago, too.

I was hoping to get the tappets out so I could stare down at the lobes on the camshaft.

I have been in touch with Hill Machine Headworks in Ballard for the cylinder head inspection and repair. I haven't looked towards Tacoma or Puyallup because once I get the head off it's a shorter drive to Seattle to drop it off.

Hi Craig, I need to check with Jessie, but maybe I can join you at your boat and check out your engine. Maybe do the table thing at the same time...?
Harold

hodo said:

Hi Craig, I need to check with Jessie, but maybe I can join you at your boat and check out your engine. Maybe do the table thing at the same time...?
Harold

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That would be a fine idea. Bring Jessie along if she's available. Ellen will be along, too.

Craig