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Varnishing cabin sole (again)

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Matt,

Was your sole glued, or screwed? Will you let us let us know your prep, work sequence and varnish choices? Roll and tip, perhaps?

I'm looking at this project soon. I believe my sole is glued (with screwed-down battens around entire perimeter, ugh) and am contemplating doing it all on hands and knees.

Here's Matt's sole:

Matt
1984 E35-III
S/V "Wind Chaser" #187
Long Beach, California

Matt cabin sole.jpg

Here's my cabin sole, with endless border pieces all cut to fit. Standard on this era boats?

1984 E38 sole detail.JPG
 
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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
More "sole survivor" puns... Yippee!

A friend of mine had the yard refinish the sole on his E-33RH, over a decade ago - maybe almost two decades. Came out Very good. He did not discuss the cost. :rolleyes:
Sole and trim on his model are just like the pix from Matt's boat.
The yard guy did the work with all wood in place, i.e. without removing any fastenings or plugs, or trim.

Having no battens for trim, ours came out in complete major pieces (some pix incorporated into the monster sole thread on this site). The advantage to total removal was being able to take the sections to a furniture stripping shop and having them all 'dipped'. I did that with our table and leaves, as well. While I would not advise repeating everything I did 20 years ago, I would follow this procedure again. :)

But then I did Not have do contend with any adhesive under the T&H plywood sections like many of the EY owners have run into. :mad:

Cheers,
Loren

ps: When finishing, put on at least 6 + coats of thinned varnish, and sand with 400 between each coat. I use foam brushes.
pps: Link: http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?2423-cabin-sole-replacement
 
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e38 owner

Member III
1981 cabin sole of 3 38 was screwed but not glued when i replaced.

We had to add one more seam as one piece was too big for the hatch
The door molding around the aft stateroom and head were the trickiest part
 

Pat C.

Member III
Replaced mine several years ago. Came out great. Had someone do it for me, just didn't have the time. It's not too hard a job if you are good with wood and detail oriented. Will take some time. If like mine, once you remove the trim, the original plywood veneer comes up real easy, just locate the screws holding it down. Looks like the floor was the last thing done in the interior, thankfully, so the other joinery does not sit atop of it.

Replacing with real teak/holly screw down and glue to the subfloor. Avoids creaking when stepped on with temp variations. I didn't have mine glued so easier to remove if needed but as a result I have occasionally noticed this problem. Poplar or maple more common than holly these days. One thing for sure, you will be an expert at placing wood plugs over screw heads once done. Once in, sand down and finish just like a home floor. Lots of dust, so be prepared.
 
Cabin sole

attachment.php
On Sketcher my 1983 35' Ericson, the original floor was screwed down.

When I replace it 20 years ago, I put 3/8" plywood (marine paint on bottom side) and screwed it down.
Then took 3/8" strips of maple & teak solids...with 5200 glued it down...no screws. Screwed down the original surround trim.
Varnished it all and has held up GREAT. I did replace all the pipes & hoses beneath at same time.

Have attached a picture.

The floor did flex for a week or two until dry...then solid. I do not get the dark stains at the seams.

Hilco Woudstra
 

MMLOGAN

Member III
Sole refinish

Christian,

My sole was screwed down. No glue to be found.

I had posted the process in 2014 when I removed and replaced with homemade tongue and groove. I can't seem to find the post on the site now?

So, here we go:

My old floor came up in pieces so we used 2 inch wide door skin strips to make a template. Cut the strip to the correct length, hot glue to the next piece as you progress around the boat. Make sure the templates can fit through the hatch if you are going to make large replacement panels.

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We used 1/2 marine grade plywood for a subfloor. The subfloor was cut to fit the TAFG so that we would always have a place to screw down adjoining pieces. The subfloor was treated on all sides with epoxy for waterproofing. Once the subfloor was in place we marked and cut for bilge access. We added an access hatch to the area just below the companion way ladder.
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Once the Subfloor was in place and screwed down we started with teak and maple strips. These were secured with epoxy and a screw here and there. We spent considerable time on the layout. The focal point/center line of the floor was where it met the mast. We made sure that the maple strip lined up with the center of the mast and worked to port and starboard from that line.
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All of the trim was remade using teak strips.

We used Bona floor poly thinned with Interlux 333 for the 1st two coats. I believe it was a 30% mixture. This raised the grain and sealed the wood. We sanded with 150 grit prior to the first coat. We sanded with 220 on coats 2 thru 7. We used a 4 inch foam brush to apply.

I just refinished the floor this month. It had held well, but, I wanted to give it more protection from the rugrats. I was unable to find the original floor poly and contacted Bona. They had replaced it with Woodline oil-modified floor polyurethane. This product was as good as the original. I scuffed the floor with 220 grit for the first coat and then used 320 grit for the last 6 coats. After sanding I vacuum, wipe with a water dampened cloth and then wipe with mineral spirit dampened cloth. Just before I apply finish I use a tack rag with very little pressure. I filter the finish from the can into a new plastic paint tray liner and throw away any excess finish. I used a 6 inch foam roller and a 4 inch foam brush to tip off. I always brush back into the area I just worked so that I maintain a wet edge. Resist the desire to remove specs or hairs unless you are working that area. With the bilge covers out you have plenty of access without walking on the floor. Natural light is the best for picking up dry spots or blemishes. Open your curtains and remove your hatch covers.

An enjoyable project and brings a great look to the boat.
 

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markvone

Sustaining Member
Christian,

My teak and holly sole refinish job (last winter) started as a repair and rebuild of the two floor boards near the mast. I also had a little rot by the mast step in the edges of the actual (non-removable) floor from moisture leaking down the mast. My only other area of moisture damaged sole was a small area way under the nav station. The rest had an inconsistent appearance where the varnish (poly?) had worn away in the high wear areas. I also realized I was beginning to wear down the teak and holly veneer where the finish was gone and I was at risk of water damage (I still need to repair hatches and ports).

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As I figured out how to repair and reconfigure the floor and boards around the mast I came across this article and decided I would first attempt to strip and refinish the sole before I replaced it.

http://www.dakotamarine.com/blog-article-saving-your-sole.html

I used a heat gun and a 1 inch scraper per the article and the finish came off very nicely. I got pretty good at determining when the scraper and finish were just the right temp to peel up. The finish came up in long curly strips that were easy to vacuum up. My teak and holly had a few darkish spots that I tried to bleach and some dents that I tried to steam out but neither worked successfully. In my case, a brand new sole would look almost too nice to match the patina of my teak interior, so I am happy with the slightly rugged look of teak and holly under the nice new finish.

Here are the reconfigured mast boards. I had to make the near mast board from scratch and stain it to match.

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The stripped sole.

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And a comparison of the old to new with only one coat of poly.

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My best picture of 4 or 5 coats. There is blue tape where I'm repairing the top veneer near the mast. The darker spots are not as obvious in real life as in this picture. Lighting makes it hard to get a life-like picture.

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I have 5 coats of poly on now and I need at least two more to even out the surface. I don't have any good pictures of the floor with 5 coats of poly but I will soon have pictures when I finish this spring. Overall, I'm very happy with how the refinish came out. I spent some man-hours but very little cash to get a huge improvement.

If you have a good sole without serious moisture stains or rot and minimum dents you can strip it and get it 95% like new for less cost and less effort than a new sole. If you want a "like new" end product and the rest of your interior looks like new (or will when you are done) then a new sole is the way to go.

Mark












 

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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Great guidance, everyone.

And that is one heck of a tutorial: http://www.dakotamarine.com/blog-article-saving-your-sole.html

In my case, the sole is good enough to save.

However, the holly is somewhat proud of the teak in some areas, apparently the result of wear over time--teak being softer. Anybody seen that?

What happens if you try to carefully sand or trim down the holly? If it's veneer, too, I don't quite understand how it got to be at a different level.

NOTE: The '84 E381 sole is 5/th's ply with a 1/8th T&H veneer. However, the veneer itself is only 1/16th (it has a 1/16th backing layer). So, no heavy sanding.
 
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markvone

Sustaining Member
Sole Refinish Tips

Christian,

I can't imagine that your sole is not a plywood veneer. My 1981 was. All the new T&H plywood I could find has wider teak and narrower holly than I have. The holly is whiter too, maybe that is just age. I had to make the custom board by the mast because none of the new T&H scraps matched. But, I understand the veneers are much thinner on modern T&H plywood - so we got that going for us.

I did both a holly veneer and a teak veneer repair near the mast. You can see the pre-strip damage in the second picture - DID THESE 2 PICTURES POST? I can't see them. I'll re-post if no.

You can see how they looked stripped. pre-repair in the reconfigured mast board picture. There is one dark and moisture damaged holly piece about 3 inches long to the left of the near mast board. There are two areas of missing teak veneer. One very small area right along the edge of the near mast board that I haven't decided if it's worth fixing yet. And a large (1 x 5") area along the edge of the long floor board where it meets the near mast board (the grain is running opposite the holly). I can post detailed pictures of these repairs if you would like to see them.

The veneers were a decent thickness to work with and you have enough material to sand - a little. I got a large piece of teak veneer that was falling off the bottom (bilge side) of the large, long removable floor board due to moisture. (Gotta love Ericson - teak veneer on the bilge side of the floor!) I didn't have a good source of matching holly veneer, but got a marginal piece (slightly stained and too short) from the rotted area I cut out from the fixed floor next to the mast. I could still use a small piece of the older, wider and yellower holly if any old soul is ripping out an old sole.

My top surface was amazingly smooth and level after stripping it with the scrapper. I did no sanding for surface inconsistencies, only to try and remove the darker stains (it didn't help). I have read about the holly standing proud in some of the other teak and holly threads here on this site, so search them for what was done.

Here are a couple more tips that came to me as a sorted through pictures:

IMPORTANT - I used a 10-12 inch wide metal drywall spackle trowel as a heat shield when I was near the vertical surfaces at the edge of the floor to prevent bubbling the finish on the sides. Guess how I learned this trick.

I plan to refinish the sides in the future so I stripped the trim battens with the floor, but I did not finish the battens with the floor. I left them stripped so they can act as a stand-off/heat barrier if I need to strip the vertical side surfaces vs just sanding. You can see they are light tan, not dark in the finished floor pictures. The 1 inch wide trim batten and the metal trowel will work to protect the refinished floor if I need to use heat on the sides.

I also used an oscillating tool and small sanding triangle to take off the finish on the trim battens.

I used my wife's small clothes steamer for the dent steaming experiments that only slightly helped. Maybe a search for dent steaming tips whould yield better results?

It is probably is worth a little more experimenting with some of the various bleaching techniques to see if darkened or stained areas can be lightened.


Let me know if you have any more questions.

Mark
I feel like the Yoda of sole refinishing.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
You can see the pre-strip damage in the second picture - DID THESE 2 PICTURES POST? I can't see them. I'll re-post if no.

Very useful. Those two pix didn't post.
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
Here are the first two (missing) pictures.

First the general condition of the floor. I've already cut out the rot near the mast, shortened the long center floor board which ran all the way to the mast and fabricated a temporary aft mast board to test the fit. Looks like the fwd mast board is already stripped. I tried chemical stripper on it but the heat gun was WAY better.
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The detail of the damage around the mast.
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The damage shown is to the fixed in place floor. Inside the blue tape is where I planned to cut out the damage. It also outlines the area where I planned to insert a new removable floor board. The original E36RH long, center floor board ran right up to the mast step. The forward end was rotten from moisture down the mast. The new aft mast floor board would replace the cut out wood and also allow me to leave the (now shorter) long floor board in all the time without risk of water damage. The E36RH bilge is 15 inches deep and a trip hazard with the long floor board out. I will remove the two small mast boards fwd and aft of the mast when I leave the boat. You can see the teak veneer damage along the left side of the long floor board opening. I was able to cut out some of it, but still had a 1" wide by 5" long missing piece. The holly damaged section is hidden under the blue tape on the left but looked like the black holly on the right side that got cut out. The holly in the lower right corner (partially under the blue tape) is the piece I salvaged to do the holly repair.
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
Teak Veneer Repair

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The final picture is sanded between 1 or 2 coats of poly. Even though the teak patch was not an exact match being darker and grainier, with 5 coats of poly on it now it is very hard to notice.

Mark
 

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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I was working on that very of the boat area today.

The photos still appear as broken links. Sometimes that means they're not Jpegs. It also happens if you try to remove duplicated photos.

No worries, thanks for the effort.

....The subsequent ("final") picture did work. And the teak patch looks great.
 
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markvone

Sustaining Member
Holly Veneer Repair

Here is the start with the dark damaged holly cut out. I wish I had a longer and better patch piece. I would have cut out more damaged length.

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The repair glued in but with no poly. With 5 coats of poly all you can see are the discoloration in the repair piece and the existing holly I didn't cut out. With a longer, undamaged patch piece this repair would have been invisible.

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I'll add some final pictures when I get a few more coats on.

Mark
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
I can see the pictures only on my home computer where I uploaded them. At work they don't show up. I did try to delete duplicates in the first post. The files are jpegs. Oh well, as usual I'm just fooling myself.
 

CSMcKillip

Moderator
Moderator
I will join the Yep we did that thread. Our floor was trashed. We had her hauled out and redone by a guy that worked on old wooden Chris Crafts. We purchased the veneered wood and had it shipped in. 3/4" T&H. We also had all edges and the bottom sealed with west system and there is also clear epoxy 3 coats then varnish on top. The varnish was a semi gloss as I wanted the floor to be close to the interior finish.

i can look at the invoice if interested in fine details and cost breakdown.

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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author

billie williams

Member II
Relaminating an Inspection Board



This spring I removed a factory-installed inspection board (5 " x 6" teak and holly plywood) near the mast which had gotten wet from the rain water coming down the mast. I was worried that there was water trapped in the bilge where I couldn't see it. There wasn't any water but the piece of teak and holly ply was saturated so I brought it home to dry out. Bad move. It delaminated into 4 separate layers. Now that it's all dry, my idea is to lightly sand everything but the top and then laminate the layers back together.

I'll use the ideas shown in Christian's last video. Before I screw things up even more, does anybody have any advice?
 
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