Propane Plumbing Question

Dear Ericson Sages,

I want to add a second propane appliance to our boat and need your guidance on the best way to plumb it.
Currently we have a propane stove. We want to add a propane heater to the main cabin.

The propane tank is in a well vented locker on deck with a pressure gauge, regulator, solenoid and hose with a special nipple where the hose penetrates the deck into the boat to stop fumes leaking below.
In the galley area, away from the stove, is a propane control and fume detection system (Xintex S1A-NV).

The heater manufacturer wants the following sequence.
Tank -> Pressure Gauge -> Solenoid -> T with two branches -> Cut off valve for each branch -> Regulator on each branch -> Hose to each appliance.

Searching the web, it looks like ABYC recommends the following.
Tank -> Pressure Gauge -> Solenoid -> Regulator -> T with a branch for each appliance -> Separate Hose to each appliance.

Trying to reconcile the two methods, I can see the advantages to having a cutoff valve for each appliance but what is the advantage to having a separate regulator for each appliance?
Suggestions as to best way to plumb all this would be appreciated.

Thank you in advance for the guidance.

Andy

I have never heard of having a separate regulator for each appliance.
But then it's been quite a while since I did a full-Monty install of a new propane system. When I did, I followed the practice you show for ABYC,

"Searching the web, it looks like ABYC recommends the following.
Tank -> Pressure Gauge -> Solenoid -> Regulator -> T with a branch for each appliance -> Separate Hose to each appliance."

Anyone know if or why this should change? Class? Bueller?!

The main point to the way I did it was to have continuous hoses from the inside of the propane locker all the way to each appliance. I had a two-burner countertop cooker and a bulkhead Force 10 heater.

Loren

The heater manufacturers plan would make sense if they were worried that the gas flow after the regulator was all taken up my one of the appliances.

The ABYC seems to be safer as the high pressure stream (pre-regulator) is distributed over a shorter distance.

I don't know where you would find room in the propane locker to put two regulators.

Matching propane regulators to appliances

Gentlemen,
Thank you very much for the replies.

Sorry to be tardy in responding but I wanted to check further with Dickinson Marine -- makers of the Cozy Cabin heater.
I asked them about the differences in plumbing and got more information.
I have to say their customer service is excellent and since they are based in Canada, they are very polite and patient.

Turns out they are changing their documentation on installations and the key issue in how to plumb multiple propane appliances is what kind of regulator we are talking about, that is a one stage or two stage regulator.
Here are excerpts from their responses.

"Both the standard regulator and the 2 stage regulator do the same thing but in different ways. The standard one should only supply one appliance as the BTU rating is lower it could starve the second appliance from
fuel. The 2 stage regular allows for more flow and higher BTU's so it has the capability to supply multiply appliances.

The 2 stage regulators first stage regulates the bottle pressure of 150 psi to 2 psi taking a lot of the stress off the second stage regulator that than
takes the pressure from 2 psi down to 11" WC or .4 psi. This is also an added safety feature. If the 2 stage regular fails, the tank pressure of 150 psi will not travel through the lines to your appliance damaging the internals,
only the 2 psi from the first stage regulator will travel through. If the standard regulator fails, it can allow the tank pressure of 150 psi through to the appliance."

And specifically they recommended the following:
Tank>Pigtail Hose> Pressure Gauge> 2 Stage Regulator> Solenoid valve> T fitting> Manual shut-offs> Hose> Appliance.

The exchange with them was very helpful as I never really sorted out the difference between a one and two stage regulator.
Ironic, since I heat my house with propane and it never dawned on me to ask why there is one regulator at the tank and another by the house that feeds two lines (each with a cutoff valve) to the two heaters we use. We have in effect a two stage regulator system. Basically what they recommend is exactly what I have installed at home. Since it has worked for 30 years, guess I'll copy it for the boat!

Hopefully this info will be helpful to others trying to sort this problem out.


Andy

This last is how the pre-assembled units come. However, I re-plumbed because I wanted the solenoid to be immediately next to the tank. Every propane system failure that I've had involved a failed regulator that leaked gas into its surroundings. Including the one that I was replacing on the boat. Having the solenoid downstream of the regulator would not protect against such a scenario.

(The gas filled up the cockpit quite fast then flowed down into the cabin. There was not a "proper" propane locker when I took possession. The vague hope that it would flow out the scuppers was not borne out.)

Also, I did use two regulators, having found that a single one would not sufficiently supply the range and the furnace at the same time. Of course, another solution would have been to purchase one with a higher rated flow rate, but I was well past my monthly boat budget at that point.

Not a safe recommendation!

aj vollmer said:

Gentlemen,


And specifically they recommended the following:
Tank>Pigtail Hose> Pressure Gauge> 2 Stage Regulator> Solenoid valve> T fitting> Manual shut-offs> Hose> Appliance.


Andy

Click to expand...

This is not a good installation. I don't care who recommends it or how many times people that should know better in the marine industry keep recommending setups that are for RV's. (Hint in RV's the gas falls on the ground, not into the hull waiting to explode when the bilge pump kicks on). Propane is great, safe, and wonderful, but this is not how to do a safe installation!!!!!!

Number 1 cause of equipment based propane leaks on boats. IS THE REGULATOR!!!!! (Number 2 is the gauge...)
(Inside there is a piece of rubber (Diaphragm) and a spring valve when the rubber goes bad, and it will eventually, the gas leaks out of the regulator. That is why it has a drain hole in the Regulator! To let the gas out when the diaphragm fails.

So when the regulator fails and starts spewing gas everywhere, (Which is what happens), and you turn off the switch for the propane, the gas continues to spew everywhere.

The correct installation is:
Inside the box >> Tank> Pig Tail > High Pressure Solenoid Valve > Pressure Gauge > Regulator (Either single or dual stage, depending on equipment supplied) > (Note manual shut offs are not recommended under NEMA, or National Fire Code, Each device must have it's own electric solenoid shut off located near the gas using appliance) >> Outside the Box > ONLY the hose to the Supplied Equipment NO SPLICES T's, or connectors other than the one that is connects the hose to the gas appliance.

Stay safe!
Guy

Listen to Guy, He knows this stuff.

where does it split?

Guy Stevens said:

The correct installation is:
Inside the box >> Tank> Pig Tail > High Pressure Solenoid Valve > Pressure Gauge > Regulator (Either single or dual stage, depending on equipment supplied) > (Note manual shut offs are not recommended under NEMA, or National Fire Code, Each device must have it's own electric solenoid shut off located near the gas using appliance) >> Outside the Box > ONLY the hose to the Supplied Equipment NO SPLICES T's, or connectors other than the one that is connects the hose to the gas appliance.

Click to expand...

I'm following this but slightly confused: where would the propane line be split to serve two devices, in the above?

Should it be
Inside the box >> Tank > Pig Tail > T-fitting > High-Pressure solenoid (on each branch) > Pressure Gauge (on each branch) > Regulator (on each branch)....

or
Inside the box >> Tank > Pig Tail > High-Pressure solenoid (shutting off both branches) > T-fitting > Pressure Gauge (on each branch) > Regulator (on each branch)....


or....?

Two appliences:

Two Appliances:

Inside Box >> Tank > Pigtail> Tee>
After Tee> High Pressure Solenoid > Gauge >Regulator (2 Stage if you like), > Hose > Outside of box> Hose to Appliance
After Tee> High Pressure Solenoid > Gauge> Regulator (2 Stage if you want) > Hose > Outside of the box> Hose to Appliance

The single stage regulators rarely (I have never seen one, propane, welding, or any other diaphragm regulator, it is theoretically possible, I have never seen it), fail open, they fail closed in my experience; but still leak gas everywhere.

The gauges are to tell you if there is a leak in the boat, with a little thinking you can also use them to test if there is a leak in the tank valve or the pigtail, it is a two step process though.
1> Open the tank valve
2> Open the Solenoid
3> Observe the Gauge
4> Close the Solenoid
5> Observe the Gauge
6> Wait..
7> Observe the Gauge
8> Open the Solenoid
9> Observe the Gauge

If you have two legs, then you would need to do this in a little different order. I think you can sort it, if not, I can list it.

Thanks,
Guy

A dual solenoid system?

Given Guy Stevens' passion about the use of a high pressure solenoid before the pressure regulator and his
compliant that manufacturers don't see the need for this type of setup, I thought I'd contact Dickinson
customer service again and see what they had to say as I think Guy's argument is a very good one.
As expected they were very prompt in replying, open to discussing the issue and provided a detailed explanation.
Dickinson has great customer service.

The customer rep agreed that the safest install would involve putting a high pressure solenoid as the first
item in the chain.

But he mentioned further issues to consider. Many of us have propane control systems that involve a low
pressure solenoid in line after the regulator, a control panel and a propane sniffer. According to the rep at
Dickinson, those systems don't have the juice to control a high pressure solenoid. So you would have to create
a dual system with a separately powered and switched high pressure solenoid.

Now we typically go up on deck, open the tank valve, go below and open the control solenoid, then after we are
done shut off the solenoid, burn the fuel in the lines, go up and turn off the tank valve. Kind of a pain but
simple and safe. However a dual system sounds really attractive.

To be honest I was just vaguely aware of low vs pressure solenoids and had no idea about the type of solenoid
the propane control systems could activate. So what I'm going to do is combine the two.
I'll add the high pressure solenoid with a separate switch with an on light and run to power and just remember to open it first before triggering
the Xintex system with its low pressure solenoid, propane sniffer and alarm. After we are done would turn off both switches.

At some future point I'll add a relay control that would sense that the Xintex solenoid has opened and then
trigger the separately powered high pressure solenoid. Should be easy to do. A dual solenoid system would not
be that expensive and fits my belt, suspenders and elastic waistband safety redundancy mindset.

Thanks again for the discussion.

Andy

Solenoid, Schmolenoid. Sure, the setup must be right.

But don't forget to turn off the propane tanks before leaving the boat, and when not in use.

Christian Williams said:

Solenoid, Schmolenoid. Sure, the setup must be right.

But don't forget to turn off the propane tanks before leaving the boat, and when not in use.

Click to expand...

A little off topic sorry hey Christian I just saw your video I thought it was pretty awesome of your latest trip to Hawaii on your 38. I do have a propane question for the people that are here I also have an Ericson 38 and I'm converting to propane but need to know what type of propane cylinder fits in the Ericson 38 Locker any help would be greatly appreciated thank you.

I think our series uses a 2.6 gallon propane tank, one each in port and starboard lockers.

But measure the compartment to be sure.

These little tanks don't look like they hold much, but I cooked three meals a day for two months on one of them this summer and it's still going strong.

Christian Williams said:

I think our series uses a 2.6 gallon propane tank, one each in port and starboard lockers.

But measure the compartment to be sure.

Click to expand...

On my 35-III rough diameter of the round parts is 11 and a bit inches nominal, and 16 inches deep.

aj vollmer said:

Gentlemen,
Thank you very much for the replies.

Sorry to be tardy in responding but I wanted to check further with Dickinson Marine -- makers of the Cozy Cabin heater.



Andy

Click to expand...

Andy,

If you are concerned about ABYC compliance/insurance coverage you should know the Cozy Cabin heater is not ABYC compliant, because it lacks "room sealed combustion".. Just ask them, Dickinson, (Dickinson owns Sig/Cozy Cabin heater now) and they will tell you this. It is frustrating that you have to ask and they continue to sell these units for boats while failing to disclose that the unit does not meet the minimum safety standards and with a good surveyor will not, & should not, pass an insurance survey. I have had to remove two in the last few years due to failed insurance surveys. If you still can, you may want to return the Cozy and order a Dickinson P9000 or P12000.

The Dickinson P9000 & P12000 are ABYC compliant, offer far better & more comfortable heat distribution, and will not make your cabin damp from LP combustion. One of the first things I did when we purchased our current boat was to remove the Cozy Cabin heater.

Maine Sail said:

Andy,

If you are concerned about ABYC compliance/insurance coverage you should know the Cozy Cabin heater is not ABYC compliant, because it lacks "room sealed combustion".. Just ask them, Dickinson, (Dickinson owns Sig/Cozy Cabin heater now) and they will tell you this. It is frustrating that you have to ask and they continue to sell these units for boats while failing to disclose that the unit does not meet the minimum safety standards and with a good surveyor will not, & should not, pass an insurance survey. I have had to remove two in the last few years due to failed insurance surveys. If you still can, you may want to return the Cozy and order a Dickinson P9000 or P12000.

The Dickinson P9000 & P12000 are ABYC compliant, offer far better & more comfortable heat distribution, and will not make your cabin damp from LP combustion. One of the first things I did when we purchased our current boat was to remove the Cozy Cabin heater.

Click to expand...

Our prior smaller boat had a "Cozy Cabin" heater for the decade that we owned it. The open flame was a reason for never keeping it lit when we went to bed at night. While we never had any problems with it and the heat was great, the burner design did call for more cautions.

The one part of your statement that I never experienced was an implication that combustion gases (water vapor among other things) were going into the cabin. We never (!) had any moisture evident from the heater -- it all goes up the stack.

OTOH, our propane two-burner cooker would indeed put some water vapor into the air. Hatch was always open when cooking, however.

I do (really) like the newer P9000 and 12000, and have done an offshore delivery with one running for many hours. Having the flame behind glass and having the air heated and forced out from the little double-wall firebox is a great idea.

Your Insurance company will require an Insurance survey. Terra Nova is due one next year. The Surveyor will note the non compliant heater and the Insurance company will require you to remove it. They will also require a propane sniffer and CO alarm.

We have had enough explosions (some fatal) around here to make it worth wile to be compliant. Besides, you will still have insurance.