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Keel question

mateo

Junior Member
Thinking about buying an Ericson 30 plus, but the keel is slightly off to the right. It does not line up with the rudder of the boat. Will this affect the handing and performance of the boat?
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Shu

Member II
Are you sure it's the keel that's out of whack rather than the rudder? Is there any visible cracks or distress around the keel where it mates with the hull? I'm sure you'll get plenty of feedback from much more knowledgeable members than myself but I'd be concerned that the boat was run aground and jarred the keel. If you see no evidence of such, maybe the rudder is out of whack a bit. My thoughts with limited experience is that the misalignment alone is problematic but the possibility of a jarred keel would be more so. I'll be very interested to see what the experienced members say. Good luck to you and welcome to the site!
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Shu has a good point. Which "blade" is it?
Note that if you watch while someone turns the wheel, you would pretty quickly see the warpage due to a bent rudder shaft.

As an "empirical" thinker... I would run a tape measure from both toe rails down to the bottom of the keel. While it's difficult to be precise within less than a half or quarter inch, still it's a pretty way to quickly see if there is a problem.

My .02 worth...

LB
 

mateo

Junior Member
I am not sure if the boat was run aground. I didn't see any signs of a hard grounding. The broker is assuring me that its not a big deal and not to worry about the slightly out of alignment keel. He says that these were hand made and nothing will be precise. Maybe I am being overly paranoid about it not lining up exactly.
Another question I had was the keel looks like the fiberglass is coming apart on it. You can see the line on the keel were it meets the hull. Boat is a '84 so it is 30 years old. Again, broker says not a big deal it can be fixed and quoted me a price. I plan on having it barrier coated anyways, just want a second opinion.
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Shu

Member II
I'll weigh in one more time. I would get a survey done on the boat. No doubt you've found the right brand, just a caution on taking what the broker said to the bank with you. I'm also very curious to see what the elders (not by age mind you!) say about how the boat tracks with the alignment issue. I know that a "weather helm" or a boat that tends to track toward the wind, is preferred over one that tracks on a "lee helm" or away from the wind. This gets into science that is way beyond my pay grade but I imagine again that one of the ( young ) elders can school you on that. My strongest recommendation would be to get the vessel surveyed. It's likely the best money you'll spend. Hope to see more pictures. Best of luck.
 

mateo

Junior Member
Thanks for the responses. I did get the boat surveyed, surveyor said not a big deal and I am getting the boat at an excellent price.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
There's a lot of previous caulking in the keel connection to the hull, and I don't know what that mess on the edge of the fin is, and although these boats were hand made, the keel and the rudder are supposed to line up.

If it were me, I would have a closer look at the situation--maybe get a boatyard estimator to give an estimate.

I don't know that this is a big problem, but I would want to know it is not a big problem--no matter what the price.

Here's the rotated pic:

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Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
Thinking about buying an Ericson 30 plus, but the keel is slightly off to the right. It does not line up with the rudder of the boat. Will this affect the handing and performance of the boat?
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My boat looked like that--worse, actually--but it was the rudder post that was bent and not the keel. A new rudder fixed the problem.

If the rudder post is bent you may find that it is more difficult to turn in one direction than the other or that it turns farther in one direction than the other, or both.
 

Emerald

Moderator
I'm not buying the "hand built" excuse. Ericson built better quality boats than to send them from the factory with keels hanging skewed. Something is amiss. I'd check the internal structure closely. It may be a bent rudder post also. That seems more likely, but I would really expect the keel to be true from build, and if something caused it to become skewed, I'd walk unless 100% sure on what was going on and the cost to fix it. Also, I would expect the boat to sail differently on different tacks if the keel is at an angle (and the rudder's alignment being off would also have a negative impact). And something I'd throw out is that while you might find a way to be OK on buying it, when it came time to sell, you might find it is a nightmare to unload.
 

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
I am not sure if the boat was run aground. I didn't see any signs of a hard grounding. The broker is assuring me that its not a big deal and not to worry about the slightly out of alignment keel. He says that these were hand made and nothing will be precise. Maybe I am being overly paranoid about it not lining up exactly.
Another question I had was the keel looks like the fiberglass is coming apart on it. You can see the line on the keel were it meets the hull. Boat is a '84 so it is 30 years old. Again, broker says not a big deal it can be fixed and quoted me a price. I plan on having it barrier coated anyways, just want a second opinion.
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You are not being paranoid. The broker is pumping sunshine in order to sell the boat. No big surprise there.
 

Emerald

Moderator
and the more I look at this picture the more I think that this boat hit something under water hard, hard enough to take a chunk out and crack the seam. Something that gave a big wallop and bent the rudder post at the same time? I would be really careful on this one.....
 
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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
.02 worth of philosophy...

An observation about all of the parties involved in any sale, if I may...

Both the seller and broker are probably honest enough folks, but both have a vested financial interest in the sale. The buyer is often a little too overwhelmed with the enormity of the purchase and the desirability of ownership to see all of the details, both good and bad.

Trust me, in the first couple of years of ownership of any vessel, new or used, additional things will show up both desirable and undesirable.
(I know of several instances where the list of problems with a brand new sailboat took well over a year for a persistent -- and honorable... and frustrated -- broker to iron out with a reluctant boat builder. So buying new guarantees no happiness either.)

The only "party to the sale" without a direct voice is the boat itself. That's where the surveyor comes in.
As a surveyor I know puts it: "the surveyor is the Only one who speaks for the boat!"

So look and take notes and compare the written survey to what you see.
We will contribute what we are able to, but as much as we would all like to convene at the scene, we are a long distance away.

Regards,
Loren
 

mateo

Junior Member
Again, thanks for the help and responses. I am having a surveyor take a second look, but I think you guys are right. Probably going to pass on this one.
 

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
An observation about all of the parties involved in any sale, if I may...

Both the seller and broker are probably honest enough folks, but both have a vested financial interest in the sale. The buyer is often a little too overwhelmed with the enormity of the purchase and the desirability of ownership to see all of the details, both good and bad.

Trust me, in the first couple of years of ownership of any vessel, new or used, additional things will show up both desirable and undesirable.
(I know of several instances where the list of problems with a brand new sailboat took well over a year for a persistent -- and honorable... and frustrated -- broker to iron out with a reluctant boat builder. So buying new guarantees no happiness either.)

The only "party to the sale" without a direct voice is the boat itself. That's where the surveyor comes in.
As a surveyor I know puts it: "the surveyor is the Only one who speaks for the boat!"

So look and take notes and compare the written survey to what you see.
We will contribute what we are able to, but as much as we would all like to convene at the scene, we are a long distance away.

Regards,
Loren
Loren,
I think there is certainly wisdom in what you are saying. I agree about the need for a good surveyor, *provided that* it is a surveyor that the *buyer* finds and not one supplied by the broker. There are unethical surveyors as well as unethical brokers out there, and a surveyor who gets work passed to him/her from the seller's broker *does* have a vested interest in the sale.

My comment in the previous post about the broker "pumping sunshine" is perhaps unfair, since I don't know this broker and he *might* be a really honest guy, *might* truly believe that this damage is "not a big deal," and *might* think that the misalignment is "nothing to worry about." But if he sincerely believes this then he doesn't know what he is talking about. The misalignment will most definitely affect the way the boat sails. And that ugly looking crack might "not be a big deal" to *him*, but it sure would be to me as a buyer. If the keel damage is "not a big deal" then maybe the seller should fix both of these issues (keel crack and likely a bent rudder post) on his dime first.

Frankly, the fact that you have both keel damage AND an out of alignment rudder suggests to me that the boat was grounded at one point. I don't trust the broker's opinion on this at all, whether or not he sincerely believes what he is saying.

As a general principle, I think it is always better to spend more on the purchase in order to get a well cared for boat than one with issues like this. The "bargain" boats will always cost you more in time, lost sailing, and even money in the long run vs. ponying up the money up front for a boat that was obviously well loved.
 

mateo

Junior Member
Again, thanks for all the help and responses. I got another picture from the broker today. Looking at the picture from a normal zoom, it appears there is nothing wrong, but when you zoom in a little you can see that the rudder or keel appears to be off. I was so close to buying this boat also.
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