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Regulations for existing sailboats

D & DM Cahill

Member II
Hi All. We have a potential buyer for Amazing Grace, our E38, who has had our boat surveyed. The surveyor has stated that, according to ABYC, the boarding ladder must be able to be accessed from the water (no grandfather clause). Our boat has the standard boarding ladder found on the E-38 standard which has the manual latches on the push pit which must be released so the ladder can be dropped down. It was my understanding that ABYC sets standards for boat, ship, yacht construction and repair but those standards are not manditory unless the construciton or repair is to receive the ABYC certificaction. They can serve as guides when the certification is not desired. If the Coast Guard incorporates a ABYC standard into regulations, then they become manditory. Can someone help me sort this out since it will have a bearing on the sale and possibly the insurance requirements for our purchaser. Thanks for the help. Dave Cahill
 

TakeFive

Member II
Hi All. We have a potential buyer for Amazing Grace, our E38, who has had our boat surveyed. The surveyor has stated that, according to ABYC, the boarding ladder must be able to be accessed from the water (no grandfather clause). Our boat has the standard boarding ladder found on the E-38 standard which has the manual latches on the push pit which must be released so the ladder can be dropped down. It was my understanding that ABYC sets standards for boat, ship, yacht construction and repair but those standards are not manditory unless the construciton or repair is to receive the ABYC certificaction. They can serve as guides when the certification is not desired. If the Coast Guard incorporates a ABYC standard into regulations, then they become manditory. Can someone help me sort this out since it will have a bearing on the sale and possibly the insurance requirements for our purchaser. Thanks for the help. Dave Cahill


I would begin by asking the surveyor for a print out of the relevant standard. Note that the current standard for reboarding ladder, lifelines, grab rails, etc, ABYC H-41, was adopted in 1995, well after your 1984 boat was built and is not relevant. If, and only if Ericson certified the reboarding mechanism as compliant with ABYC A-18, the standard in use during 1984, would you be required to return it to the original configuration if you listed the boat as being offered "as built to the original factory specification." So ask the surveyor for a copy of not only standard A-18 but a copy of Ericson's certification that they followed standard A-18.

More than likely, Ericson along with every other builder in 1984, certified the fire extinguisher as USCG/ABYC compliant, and that's probably the only place you will find the words ABYC in the owners manual. ABYC compliance was and is voluntary. I hire a home inspector to find problems, and I may ask for repairs, an escrow fund, or a price reduction. Sounds like this buyer has found a surveyor who has ginned up a problem, and the buyer will use it to bludgeon you into a lower price. Sell it as is or give the buyer a $1000 discount and let him figure it out. Do what it takes to close the deal. End of problem.

ps - It is a real issue and ABYC has great standards. I have several wraps of nylon twine holding my 1968 ladder fast to the rail. I would like to figure out how I could trail a 4' line off the stern so I could trip the ladder down if I fell off the anchored boat some night while hanging off the lee shrouds. On my list.
 
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Roger

Member II
Spot On

Both of you are spot on! ABYC standards are voluntary. These days, boat manufacturers are wise to fully comply with ABYC both for liability and marketing purposes. Not so much so back in the 80's! The standards have developed considerably since then, and are much more comprehensive now. We were aware of ABYC at Ericson in the 80's, and tried to generally abide by them.

A surveyor could undoubtedly find numerous other "violations" of current ABYC standards on Amazing Grace, most of which weren't in existence when it was built. That's not to say potential safety issues like your ladder shouldn't be addressed, but they should not be presented as violations of some mandatory rule or law.
 

bradh

Member II
My Recent Survey

We purchased our boat about a month ago and it was gone over by a meticulous surveyor. He did point out a couple of items that were not ABYC complaint but I would say only on a "informational" basis. Mostly I believe the ABYC requirements were areas that we could address within the design of the boat. In fact, he made no mention of the lack of a swim ladder accessible from the water; ours isn't. (Now that I think of it, no boat that I have raced on, some as young as a 1998, don't meet that requirement).

I really wish people would look at home inspections as list of immediate work and then a 5 to 10 year plan. Not a negotiation tool.

Brad Humphreys
E35-2 #229
 
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D & DM Cahill

Member II
Dear Rigle, Roger and Brad. Thank you for your quick responses. They cerainly help clarify how these quidelines work. Your responses should help my buyer as he deals with the surveyor. Thanks again. Dave
 

Shadsboat

Member I
Buyer of Amazing Grace

Well, I am the villain buyer who ginned up some details to bludgeon the seller down on price... NOT! The survey had many points of error, quite a few technical and most simple oversights or misunderstanding of his role. The surveyor very possibly needs to be referred to his accrediting agency for ineptitude and I am mulling that bludgeon point over.
In fact, all worked out well and the seller and I are all very happy.
Paul
 

Rick R.

Contributing Partner
Our surveyor found the same thing. As far as he was concerned, we could attach a line to the ladder to deploy it from the water. Of course that didn't get the pins out or flip up the stantion levers. Not a deal killer at all and no issue with insurance. In fact, ask for more money for your "vintage ladder" !
 

Maine Sail

Member III
This is an issue and it is the insurer who really sets the bar for the compliance they want to see. The surveyor can only make recommendations usually to cover him/her self..

One of my good friends, a customer as well, almost died because he could not get his ladder down! He fell off the dock securing his boat in a storm in FEBRUARY in MAINE!!

He got very, very, very lucky the dock hands heard his screams..... It was an Ericson 32-3 and the ladder was pinned up. He now leaves it unlocked at the dock and has a rope to pull it down which dangles off the transom.....

Maine Chef Survives Icy Plunge
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
The virtue of Stayin' Alive

This is an issue and it is the insurer who really sets the bar for the compliance they want to see. The surveyor can only make recommendations usually to cover him/her self..

One of my good friends, a customer as well, almost died because he could not get his ladder down! He fell off the dock securing his boat in a storm in FEBRUARY in MAINE!!

He got very, very, very lucky the dock hands heard his screams..... It was an Ericson 32-3 and the ladder was pinned up. He now leaves it unlocked at the dock and has a rope to pull it down which dangles off the transom.....

Maine Chef Survives Icy Plunge

Quite the narrative! Glad your friend survived.
I doubt that anyone would question the need for an apparatus like that, either.

We occasionally get some harsh winter storms here, but it's been over 30 years since a prolonged 20 degree thirty knot east wind froze up some of the moorages along the edge of the Columbia. I fully agree with the danger involved.

Upon reflection, I believe that one possible reason that this is not routinely handled by the vendors of boarding ladders might be the legal system for liability in the US. I recall talking to an attorney & boat owner up in Vancouver BC some years ago about this general issue and being told that in his country it very difficult to collect money for any sort of liability. The gist of it was that unless the injured person could prove intent to harm on the part of the host or vendor, there was no "reward" for being injured like exists in the US.

So if a company, trying to provide a safer ladder with in-water access, has someone injured or killed while using their product, they could be successfully sued into financial oblivion here. And, I can only start to imagine the many ways that such a device could be rendered unusuable by a customer (and that would include some idiotic yard workers doing an improper install, too).

Most of us can conjure up a "Rube Goldberg" device to do this, but constant upkeep would be called for.
After decades, the very useful "Seattle Sling" (aka nowadays the LifeSling) is in general use, and old ones are rotting off of the stern rails of old sailboats everywhere... and I have no idea how potential product liability might be handled. These things are sold and re-sold at swap meets.

And them, my whole hypotheses might be in error, too. :rolleyes:

Anyhow, great discussion.
Thanks everyone.

Loren
 

bradh

Member II
Ladders

Our marina has ladders at about every other slip (I use my kids complaining about having to wear PFDs at the dock as a reminder to point out their location). Is the intent of this to cover both at the dock and on the water? I don't single hand my boat (yet), so on the water I always assume someone can get the ladder down.

Brad
 

Maine Sail

Member III
Our marina has ladders at about every other slip (I use my kids complaining about having to wear PFDs at the dock as a reminder to point out their location). Is the intent of this to cover both at the dock and on the water? I don't single hand my boat (yet), so on the water I always assume someone can get the ladder down.

Brad

Our club also has emergency pull down ladders on the docks but this spring, on Kentucky Derby day, one of our members fell in trying to get the motor onto his dinghy. The motor went to the bottom, and he slipped and went in too. He is 6'3' and about 260 pounds and in the cold spring water (45F) he could NOT get him self up the ladders.

We were very lucky that we had a Kentucky Derby party going on at the club that day, otherwise no one would have been there to help him out of the water. He said that within seconds of going in his legs were nearly useless... We have now tested them with multiple members and added an additional grab point. Don't count on your marina or clubs installed safety ladders until you have tested them..
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Provocative info. Having just worked on the stock boarding ladder of my 32-3, there is no good way to make it deployable by a swimmer. It renews awareness of the danger of falling overboard.

Also, there are very, very few--if any--"swim" ladders in my marina. Fall off the dock without a witness and it will be an unnecessary survival test. I'll bring this up with the dockmaster, just to hear the LA County justification.

My father told of a skipper who fell off his boat one summer and drowned. Nobody knew exactly what happened. When they hauled the boat in the fall, written on the waterline in pencil were the words, "I could not get back aboard."
 

bradh

Member II
Ladders

Agreed - the marina next to us has the emergency "chain" type. Luckily someone decided to use the full hard traditional "swim" ladders at our marina; so I will plug those to anyone who serves on a board at a marina/club. We obliviously deal with cold water here on the great lakes in the Spring; so thanks for also giving me additional respect to spring time buddy system even at the dock.

Brad
 
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mkollerjr

Member III
Blogs Author
This was a finding on my survey as well. I think it's one of the "top five" safety items surveyors look for, along with functioning GFCI outlet, expired fire extinguishers, and a blackened shore power connection. I didn't really see this as much of a bargaining tool, as $5 worth of rope seemed like it would solve the problem. We removed the pins locking the hinged latches in place (there's enough friction holding them in). I tested out this summer tying a piece of rope to each latch, long enough to be reached from the water. You had to tug pretty hard, but with a little modification to extend the moment arm, it seems like it would work.

I also tried swimming around my boat this summer to see how easy it would be to get back on the boat without the ladder. On flat calm water, I tried and tried, but could not get out of the water enough to reach the toe rail. In other words, you are screwed if you fall overboard with the swim ladder up.

Mark
 

Shelman

Member III
Blogs Author
My boarding ladder is held up by a strip of velcro that wraps around the last rung of the ladder and ties it to the stern pulpit. The velcro strap has a D-ring sewn into the end to which a strap or cord can be attached, and when pulled releases the velcro and deploys the ladder.

The E-26 has a continuous top rail across the stern which makes this method easier than some others.
 
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Glyn Judson

Moderator
Moderator
Deploying our boarding ladder.

We have a Mystic Stainless three-section boarding ladder secured to the life line in the starboard gate with 2" wide Velcro. A trip line is secured to the end of the Velcro and coiled within easy reach of anyone in the water. One gentle tug on it and the ladder deploys with ease. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey Ca
 

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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
A coiled line with a foot-loop at the end, bound to the base of the ladder, might provide a way for a swimmer to reach the restraining pins. I'll see if it's practical.
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supersailor

Contributing Partner
Boarding Ladders

It's interesting. By making the boarding ladder trippable from the water, we make it insecure if one should fall against it while under weigh. It appears that It should be secure when crew is aboard and trippable when single handing and when a surveyor is nearby. I always use jack lines and have stirrups rigged at the back of the boat (sheet cleat to docking cleat) when singlehanding so I have a chance to pull myself back onboard by inserting a foot in it if I'm overboard and attached by the jackline. Don't know if it will work and don't intend to find out. They make me feel good, though.
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Velcro sounds like a good idea. I've been using a cheap bungie, on the theory that a good yank on the trailing lanyard would easily stretch out and break the bungie. (And maybe put an eye out... D'Oh!) Sunlight wastes the bungie in about a year. Maybe a fuse string would be better.

I could swear that there were more ladders on our docks a year ago than there are now. The marina has been on a campaign to try to stop kids from swimming off the docks, because of potential electric shock. (Though the whole marina was just re-wired.) I wonder if they deliberately removed the ladders for that reason?
 

Glyn Judson

Moderator
Moderator
Stability on deck.

Bob, You make a good point, one that I took into consideration when installing our triple-fold ladder from Mystic Stainless http://www.mysticstainless.com/foldaway.html The boarding gate life line remains closed at all times and the ladder only attached to it with that Velcro. Stability on deck as it relates to life lines and their use for the benefit of crew is not compromised at all. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey Ca
 
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